General Hale End Talk

[MutableEarth]

Umm.. not sure about the criticism about the last game.

He brought in Nelson, ESR and Nketiah who are all own youth. Also Vieira who needs game-time. They are all still young.

Then he brought in Tierney, not sure if there was another LB on the bench? And he might have wanted to give hime some game-time to up his value?

Why would you play even younger players, when these players who have more value and bigger contracts, need to play too?

The criticism is deserved because we've had other opportunities to play them (EL, the one Carabao game etc) and the only player who got game time is Ethan Nwaneri - who played 1 minute as a political move so that we could show him he had a pathway. Ironic given not one other young player had a significant debut, despite very strong individual seasons from the likes of Cozier-Duberry and Walters. This was the last possible game - a relatively meaningless dead rubber game at the end of the season - and Cozier-Duberry didn't even make the squad. Fair enough if ESR and Nelson had started, which I would have been happy with, but he still started a half-injured, overplayed Saka when he didn't need to.

Personally it's a minor issue in the grand scheme as the first team is currently doing well, but we need to be careful we don't make the same mistakes Chelsea made with Cobham - they had a generation even better than ours and wasted much of those players in favour of expensive older players. The long term needs to show that we do still indeed have the bravery to give opportunities to our highest performing players - or at the very least continue to advance our loan system by loaning out the best ones early. Cozier-Duberry in particular should be going on loan if he's not going to play next season. If they are not tested earlier on, they'll stagnate and we'll not only lose them, but we'll lose them for peanuts. I don't think that will be good for the club personally.

 

[drippin]

The criticism is deserved because we've had other opportunities to play them (EL, the one Carabao game etc) and the only player who got game time is Ethan Nwaneri - who played 1 minute as a political move so that we could show him he had a pathway. Ironic given not one other young player had a significant debut, despite very strong individual seasons from the likes of Cozier-Duberry and Walters. This was the last possible game - a relatively meaningless dead rubber game at the end of the season - and Cozier-Duberry didn't even make the squad. Fair enough if ESR and Nelson had started, which I would have been happy with, but he still started a half-injured, overplayed Saka when he didn't need to.

Personally it's a minor issue in the grand scheme as the first team is currently doing well, but we need to be careful we don't make the same mistakes Chelsea made with Cobham - they had a generation even better than ours and wasted much of those players in favour of expensive older players. The long term needs to show that we do still indeed have the bravery to give opportunities to our highest performing players - or at the very least continue to advance our loan system by loaning out the best ones early. Cozier-Duberry in particular should be going on loan if he's not going to play next season. If they are not tested earlier on, they'll stagnate and we'll not only lose them, but we'll lose them for peanuts. I don't think that will be good for the club personally.

Sure, but I still don't understand the criticism about the last game when looking at the subs.

Saka maybe yeah, but it's impossible for us to tell if the player wants to play to up his numbers etc. It's the last game of the season and then there is a vacation.

 

[MutableEarth]

Sure, but I still don't understand the criticism about the last game when looking at the subs.

Saka maybe yeah, but it's impossible for us to tell if the player wants to play to up his numbers etc. It's the last game of the season and then there is a vacation.

The criticism is that over the whole season there have been 0 opportunities at all, and the last game is just a continuation of that. It's disappointing for a club that purports to be a team that promotes it's best youngsters. Sure, the team is already young but that doesn't mean we couldn't have played a couple of our Youth Cup finalists for 15-20 mins at the end of the Wolves game. The talk about Tierney, Nelson etc doesn't change that IMO, he should have just started them anyway.

For me, I want to see them playing 1st team football very soon - likes of Walters, Cozier-Duberry, Sousa, Awe etc have played enough U21 football and as much as it would have been nice to see them rewarded for their work this season, I can live with them not playing. But next season, they need to be loaned immediately. If we're not going to give them any cameos, loan them from the jump.

 

[drippin]

The criticism is that over the whole season there have been 0 opportunities at all, and the last game is just a continuation of that. It's disappointing for a club that purports to be a team that promotes it's best youngsters. Sure, the team is already young but that doesn't mean we couldn't have played a couple of our Youth Cup finalists for 15-20 mins at the end of the Wolves game. The talk about Tierney, Nelson etc doesn't change that IMO, he should have just started them anyway.

For me, I want to see them playing 1st team football very soon - likes of Walters, Cozier-Duberry, Sousa, Awe etc have played enough U21 football and as much as it would have been nice to see them rewarded for their work this season, I can live with them not playing. But next season, they need to be loaned immediately. If we're not going to give them any cameos, loan them from the jump.

Okay, but I still don't understand why the last game has to be mentioned, when he played 4 young players of whom 3 were own youth who all need game-time. Walters is not an LB either.

Yeah, they should go on loan, because Arsenal is in UCL now and competing for EPL title, so they will likely lack minutes no matter who would be the manager.

 

[MutableEarth]

Okay, but I still don't understand why the last game has to be mentioned, when he played 4 young players of whom 3 were own youth. Walters is not an LB either.

Yeah, they should go on loan, because Arsenal is in UCL now, so they will likely lack minutes no matter who would be the manager.

The 3 young players are already first teamers. He's talking about the current youth players, none of whom were given debuts except Nwaneri's 1 minute of football vs Brentford. Ironically, Nwaneri's the one that's already looking to leave despite the fact he probably is the likeliest to be given a pathway.

 

[drippin]

The 3 young players are already first teamers. He's talking about the current youth players, none of whom were given debuts except Nwaneri's 1 minute of football vs Brentford. Ironically, Nwaneri's the one that's already looking to leave despite the fact he probably is the likeliest to be given a pathway.

Yeah, my point has been mentioning the last game in the criticism, which I don't understand, and you haven't convinced me either. It's silly to ruin the otherwise fine criticism with something that makes not much sense at all.

All those players he subbed in, need game-time and are young. Apart from Tierney maybe, but no LB on the bench and they might have wanted to up his value a bit.

 

[MutableEarth]

Yeah, my point has been mentioning the last game in the criticism, which I don't understand, and you haven't convinced me either. It's silly to ruin the otherwise fine criticism with something that makes not much sense at all.

All those players he subbed in, need game-time and are young. Apart from Tierney maybe, but no LB on the bench and they might have wanted to up his value a bit.

It doesn't make sense to you, that's fine. I still think it's disappointing that we didn't get to see any youth team players make their debuts. It's one of two things that I didn't like this season, but it's minor (at least compared to the other thing I didn't like).

 

[Maybe]

It doesn't make sense to you, that's fine. I still think it's disappointing that we didn't get to see any youth team players make their debuts. It's one of two things that I didn't like this season, but it's minor (at least compared to the other thing I didn't like).

People will look at it short term, and fair enough, not an issue. Long term, good luck convincing any top talent to join our club.

Even on the market we shifted towards players who already started careers elsewhere (Vieira, Lokonga) so doesn't seem like the academy is gonna be a thing at this club anytime soon

 

[GunnerBP]

Yeah, I don't understand the criticism that Arteta is getting with regard to our academy. We had the second-youngest team in the league this season and we nearly won the title. Arteta is trying to pull off a competitive balance that other coaches wouldn't even imagine trying. Southampton decided to focus on youth this summer and they got relegated.

Arteta is clearly willing to give young players a chance, but they have to be good enough to play for a team that is challenging for titles. Also, compared to Wenger's era the League Cup has become more than just a tournament for giving young players their debuts, so the nature of the league right now makes it harder to give players' their debuts.

Due to the increased quality of our first team squad, it will be harder for players to break through, but not because we don't want to give them chances. A lot of it will fall down to timing and not just talent, and sending players on loans will probably be a bigger part of a player's development.

Balogun is probably a good example of the new dynamics of the first team and the academy. Arteta pushed hard to get him to sign a new deal, and I'm sure they had to show Balogun how they planned on developing him. He was sent on loan to the Championship and then to Ligue 1 this season. His development has progressed well enough that he should be good enough for the first team, but not good enough to be a starter. Balogun wants minutes, so he probably wants to leave, and the player ahead of him at Arsenal is Nketiah, another Hale End graduate. This summer we'll probably sell him with a buyback clause included.

I wouldn't be surprised if Reuell Walters goes out on loan next season.

When the first team is as good as ours has become it will be less likely that academy products will break through, but that isn't because the first team is unwilling to give them a chance. It is just that the required level for breaking through has become higher.

At this point, the goal is for as many of our academy players as possible to have good careers even if they don't make it to the first team. But Arteta has clearly shown a willingness to develop and invest in young players (a mixture of academy players and signings).

 

[lomekian]

I think there is a touch of histrionics going on here.

We were in an unexpected title race, so only really had a chance to give kids minutes in the last two league games, both of which were being prioritised as tactical preparation for next years' system, and with the latter of the two being the end of season send off.

Europa League, we didn't top the group early enough to give time to the kids really, and the League Cup was briefly used to try to give game time to the rotation players at a time when we hadn't really had an injuries and we had an EPL opponent, so couldn't give much look in for the kids. The FA CUP likewise in the first game and then we got drawn vs Man City away.

Worth remembering other key factors as well>

- that we've had something to play for in every game bar the last two, and even international players couldn't get on the pitch.
- that we've already had the youngest team in the division, which at times has been hampered by a lack of totally physically mature players
- that the vast majority of our kids who didn't go on loan just aren't ready for mens football minutes yet. Several are very talented, but not physically or tactically at the level to cope in senior football - and also the kids who didn't go on loan are either mostly 17 or younger or were injured or are never going to play at this level. This isn't like peak Wenger kid time, where we had more dead rubber games AND the next kids of the conveyor belt were either older or physically (or in Cesc or Wilshere's case, tactically much more advanced than our current lot). Sure it would have made sense to give minutes to Rekik, Patino, Balogun and BNC if they were at the club, but they weren't
- that the absolute priority this season, until it became clear we might do the entirely unexpected, was to embed the systemic evolution that Arteta wanted to do the two previous years but couldn't because there was too much dross in the squad. Bar the possibility of a few late token subs, his priority was to try to get his first team squad all either up to speed in the system or at least having had the chance to play within it.

I mean Arteta could have handed out a few more token debuts as last minute subs, but what would the point be?

 

[scytheavatar]

I think there is a touch of histrionics going on here.

We were in an unexpected title race, so only really had a chance to give kids minutes in the last two league games, both of which were being prioritised as tactical preparation for next years' system, and with the latter of the two being the end of season send off.

Europa League, we didn't top the group early enough to give time to the kids really, and the League Cup was briefly used to try to give game time to the rotation players at a time when we hadn't really had an injuries and we had an EPL opponent, so couldn't give much look in for the kids. The FA CUP likewise in the first game and then we got drawn vs Man City away.

Worth remembering other key factors as well>

- that we've had something to play for in every game bar the last two, and even international players couldn't get on the pitch.
- that we've already had the youngest team in the division, which at times has been hampered by a lack of totally physically mature players
- that the vast majority of our kids who didn't go on loan just aren't ready for mens football minutes yet. Several are very talented, but not physically or tactically at the level to cope in senior football - and also the kids who didn't go on loan are either mostly 17 or younger or were injured or are never going to play at this level. This isn't like peak Wenger kid time, where we had more dead rubber games AND the next kids of the conveyor belt were either older or physically (or in Cesc or Wilshere's case, tactically much more advanced than our current lot). Sure it would have made sense to give minutes to Rekik, Patino, Balogun and BNC if they were at the club, but they weren't
- that the absolute priority this season, until it became clear we might do the entirely unexpected, was to embed the systemic evolution that Arteta wanted to do the two previous years but couldn't because there was too much dross in the squad. Bar the possibility of a few late token subs, his priority was to try to get his first team squad all either up to speed in the system or at least having had the chance to play within it.

I mean Arteta could have handed out a few more token debuts as last minute subs, but what would the point be?

What was the point of handing out minutes to the likes Vieira/ESR/Holding/Nketiah who then end up disappointing and be useless? A strong case can be made that it is hard to believe our academy players will do a worse job than them.

 

[lomekian]

What was the point of handing out minutes to the likes Vieira/ESR/Holding/Nketiah who then end up disappointing and be useless? A strong case can be made that it is hard to believe our academy players will do a worse job than them.

A strong case? What a ridiculous thing to say. One could argue that said academy players can eventually get to levels above the players you outline, but not one of them is anywhere near their levels at the moment, unless you include the older ones on loan.

The fact is Nketiah & ESR were FAR more impactful at the age group levels than any of our current u21s and most of our u18s (who are far too bloody young and physically immature for the most part), and while he's struggled to adapt to the EPL, Vieira was putting up numbers in the Portuguese top flight that our lads can only dream of in youth football. And while Holding is clearly limited, I don't see any of our kids remotely physically or tactically ready to play at CB at the sharp end of the EPL.

People always massively underestimate the leap from youth football to the EPL. Unless you are a prodigy like Cesc, Rooney or Saka, you simply aren't ready for the EPL at 16-19. Remember, most youth players, even ones who excel at younger ages, never make it in the top flight, or take years to adapt. Saka is NOT the norm, he's a generational youth product.

 

[MutableEarth]

 

[teamsoutheast]

What was the point of handing out minutes to the likes Vieira/ESR/Holding/Nketiah who then end up disappointing and be useless? A strong case can be made that it is hard to believe our academy players will do a worse job than them.

This is a ridiulous comment. They are SENIOR members of the squad who worked hard to get to where they are now. How would you like it if you worked hard in your job and a junior member just all of a sudden becomes your manager with no prior experience?? You will start asking questions won't you! People need to remember this is real life with real people, not a computer game. The academy players need to work hard to get in the match day squad just like everyone else and not believe they have a god given right to be in the first team.

 

[teamsoutheast]

I think we should abolish Hale End so we can save money. The fool in charge despise the youth players and dont want to use them at all.

Nonsense!! This is a complete myth! Smith Rowe, Nketiah, Cozier-Duberry, Matt Smith, Ruell Walters, Mauro Bandeira, Lino Sousa, Charles Sagoe Jr, Nathan Butler Oyedeji, Bradley Ibrahim, James Hillson, Catalin Cirjan and Khayon Edwards have all made match day squads this season and not forgetting our very own Bukayo Saka who has made played one of the most minutes in our squad. They have to keep working hard and be patient.

 

[teamsoutheast]

Sure, but I still don't understand the criticism about the last game when looking at the subs.

Saka maybe yeah, but it's impossible for us to tell if the player wants to play to up his numbers etc. It's the last game of the season and then there is a vacation.

Hmmmm... interesting point here.

 

[drippin]

Hmmmm... interesting point here.

Well especially as Saka just put his name on the paper. Surely he wanted to show off in the last game of the season after that.

Of course the manager has to also be tough sometimes, and say no, if the player wants to play in spite of risking an injury. But for example with Alexis we saw that he wanted to almost always play no matter the risks.

 

[teamsoutheast]

It seems the bar has defnitely been raised. We have some incredible talent coming through there's no doubt about that. But we can't just put them in the first team above more senior players who have themselves worked hard to get to where they have.

Some of these guys are unproven at the highest level and have not played mens football and there may be nerves, inexperience, and other factors involved which we don't see.

Like @MutableEarth suggested, we need these guys to be playing mens football much sooner and put them in a more competitive environment that is outside of their comfort zone.

Talent is only part of it, but if you don't have the right attitude, work ethic, maturity both on and off the field, humility, and will to learn, then you are not gonna make it at the highest level. It's why coaches at both international level and club level love Saka so much and why he seems to be the first name on the teamsheet.

He gets in early and stays after training working on his weaknesses. How many of our young hale end talents are doing this I wonder...

 

[scytheavatar]

They are SENIOR members of the squad who worked hard to get to where they are now.

Get to where? What the freak has these people proved? Since when has ESR been so good that he is irreplaceable and has the god given right to be in the first team? It would suck for me if a junior member becomes my manager, but I am not paid 5 if not 6 digits a week like these athletes. If I am paid that much then I absolutely have no rights to complain when I get kicked out for being useless.

Like it is one thing if you give our youngster chances and they underperform, but how can you complain about them being not good enough when they are not even being given chances?

 

[teamsoutheast]

Get to where? What the freak has these people proved? Since when has ESR been so good that he is irreplaceable and has the god given right to be in the first team? It would suck for me if a junior member becomes my manager, but I am not paid 5 if not 6 digits a week like these athletes. If I am paid that much then I absolutely have no rights to complain when I get kicked out for being useless.

Like it is one thing if you give our youngster chances and they underperform, but how can you complain about them being not good enough when they are not even being given chances?

None of these youngsters are significantly better than the squad players we have. Most of them haven't even played mens football yet let alone competed at the highest level. They will have plenty of opportunity to impress in pre-season where there is less pressure. But they must show they can be competitive and give the existing squad players a good "run for their money". No point having a young player in the first team squad if he cannot compete against the players at Man Utd, Man City, or any other team domestically or in Europe. I watched the young players quite a lot last season and some of them struggled to play aginst men at Vanarama National level so imagine how they would be against top level premier league players!!

BTW, ESR hasn't been useless. He's been injured for a large part of the season.