General Reserves Talk

[Afro Mugo]

Sorry guys, I'm not buying this "loan wasn't a good decision" nonsense. The player also has to also prove himself just as every other professional footballer would. The bottom line is, some of our young players are just not good enough to play at the level they have been put up against. Some of them are struggling at Vanarama National level (Kido Taylor-Hart for example).

We need a serious overhaul of our youth recruitment system which I believe is underway following the acquistion of Brayden Clarke. We need to get the "cream of the crop" as the bar has been raised on every level. Tottenham top the U23 and U18's leagues and that's where we need to be if we are going to have a conveyor belt of talent.

Man City seem to produce ready made EFL players who can just walk into their loan teams.

* Taylor Hawood Bellis STARTS at Southampton. Was also starting when he was at Burnley last season.

* Liam Delap STARTS for Hull.

* Jan Couto STARTS for Girona.

* Luke Mbete STARTS for Den Bosch.

* Alex Robertson STARTS for Portsmouth.


Do you see where I'm going with this? The bar has been raised and we need to be up there which I believe we are doing now but the first team needed the investment initially to get us where we are now. We should see more youth recruitment happen in the summer.

I agree with this and the reality is Man City are the modern day Chelsea , they've dominated youth football past few years judging by trophies and international calls ups. Hence why I say we still.need to up our recruitment in tandem with all other factors .

 

[teamsoutheast]

I don't think a lot of them will prove to be Arsrnal quality but I do think you're being a bit harsh tbh

I honestly don't mean to come across as being harsh, I really don't. I really want alot of these guys to do well as much as you do. I go back to my point where I mentioned Brooke Norton-Cuffy doing really well to get 100 appearances in the EFL across L1 and The Championship. I think that's excellent what he's achieved but you 'seem' to think he should have been tested at a higher technical level. Well, doesn't that in a way undermine those achievements? One could say, you are being a little harsh for undermining those achievements (do you see where i'm coming from?)

Maybe the next stage will be to get a loan move to abroad to that technical team, maybe a team in France that is competing in European competition (either Europa League or Conference League) just so he can gain experience of adapting to different lifestyles, different language, being out of your comfort zone, away from friends/family.

It would be well deserved as everywhere Arsenal have sent him, he has proved himself and competed at the level served in front of him.

 

[Rasmi]

I honestly don't mean to come across as being harsh, I really don't. I really want alot of these guys to do well as much as you do. I go back to my point where I mentioned Brooke Norton-Cuffy doing really well to get 100 appearances in the EFL across L1 and The Championship. I think that's excellent what he's achieved but you 'seem' to think he should have been tested at a higher technical level. Well, doesn't that in a way undermine those achievements? One could say, you are being a little harsh for undermining those achievements (do you see where i'm coming from?)

Maybe the next stage will be to get a loan move to abroad to that technical team, maybe a team in France that is competing in European competition (either Europa League or Conference League) just so he can gain experience of adapting to different lifestyles, different language, being out of your comfort zone, away from friends/family.

It would be well deserved as everywhere Arsenal have sent him, he has proved himself and competed at the level served in front of him.

Next step for him should be secure permanent move. Going out loan after loan is waste of time. He needs to move on with his career. 99% of academy players should always jump on the chance to secure permanent move

 

[teamsoutheast]

Next step for him should be secure permanent move. Going out loan after loan is waste of time. He needs to move on with his career. 99% of academy players should always jump on the chance to secure permanent move

Maybe, it depends on if he feels he can compete with our current first team options or not. If he feels, he can compete with Ben White, and try to give him a "run for his money" then why not, fair play to him for having the mentality to want to try and stake his place in the first team. That's the level of mentality required to not only make it at Arsenal football cub but at any professional football club. He's still only 20 so he's got time.

 

[Rasmi]

Maybe, it depends on if he feels he can compete with our current first team options or not. If he feels, he can compete with Ben White, and try to give him a "run for his money" then why not, fair play to him for having the mentality to want to try and stake his place in the first team. That's the level of mentality required to not only make it at Arsenal football cub but at any professional football club. He's still only 20 so he's got time.

That’s not how it works. Football is not as clear cut and fair as you make it sound. If the manager don’t fancy you that’s it. How many times have we seen a player not playing, then a new manager comes in and he becomes a starter. It comes down to the managers preference, specially with young players with no track record. If he had a smart agent he would secured him a move

 

[GoonerJeeves]

I don't think that's the case though. Saliba was a top young talent at the time, went to both Nice and Marseille and proved himself at both clubs. Showed character, showed he was better than the players they had there. Our young players, bar 1 or 2 currently out on loan, although they have high potential, are just not good enough and haven't shown enough to give their respective managers reason to drop their current first teamer. They need to show character. There's no time for freeloaders in the footballing world.

I think it's also about finding the right clubs that fit the player.

 

[teamsoutheast]

That’s not how it works. Football is not as clear cut and fair as you make it sound. If the manager don’t fancy you that’s it. How many times have we seen a player not playing, then a new manager comes in and he becomes a starter. It comes down to the managers preference, specially with young players with no track record. If he had a smart agent he would secured him a move

Yeah there is that risk also. If the manager doesn't fancy you, then you just have to give him reason and prove yourself or if you feel you can go elsewhere and shine then do that.

 

[teamsoutheast]

I think it's also about finding the right clubs that fit the player.

I think that's a very small part of it though. The club has to want the player too. It's got to be a 2-way agreement.

 

[MutableEarth]

I agree with you but I also think this season has been an eye opening season for many clubs with regards to how good the championship has become. Numerous clubs have been shafted. Watched an interview of Carlos Corberan (one of the better modern coaches )talking about Callum Marshall and how he's not yet ready to compete week in week out in that gruesome league. ( Had already scored 16 PL2 goals by January, and is a full N.Ireland international, part of that all conquering West Ham u18 team last season).
I think we'll see a lot more league one/abroad loans next year from PL clubs. Dan Gore, who played pre season and Debuted for Man U this season was sent to league 1 and in hindsight, ,it was probably better for Sagoe Jr. I choose to look at it this way, for every Sagoe Jr and Monlouis , there's a Biereth and Norton Cuffy whom we've handled well. There's still room for improvement but we are on the right steps.
Lastly, I think we often compare ourselves with Chelsea that had all conquering youth teams hence a lot more top talents . When that has hit been the case recently, they have also found it as difficult. Harvey Vale, Xavier Simons, were part of that 03 Bellingham group and have had very **** loans.

Oh no doubt, I think everybody who's out on loan is a player likely being sold - including the ones I think actually have the talent to play here. Championship clubs are an unlikely prospect unless they're practically starter ready. Hutchinson being a good example of someone who probably could have been on loan earlier in his career. I've been largely OK with League 1 loans as it's not the highest level but it's still a very competitive league and some of our best youngsters have had a tough go of it there.

Sorry guys, I'm not buying this "loan wasn't a good decision" nonsense. The player also has to also prove himself just as every other professional footballer would. The bottom line is, some of our young players are just not good enough to play at the level they have been put up against. Some of them are struggling at Vanarama National level (Kido Taylor-Hart for example).

We need a serious overhaul of our youth recruitment system which I believe is underway following the acquistion of Brayden Clarke. We need to get the "cream of the crop" as the bar has been raised on every level. Tottenham top the U23 and U18's leagues and that's where we need to be if we are going to have a conveyor belt of talent.

Man City seem to produce ready made EFL players who can just walk into their loan teams.

* Taylor Hawood Bellis STARTS at Southampton. Was also starting when he was at Burnley last season.

* Liam Delap STARTS for Hull.

* Jan Couto STARTS for Girona.

* Luke Mbete STARTS for Den Bosch.

* Alex Robertson STARTS for Portsmouth.


Do you see where I'm going with this? The bar has been raised and we need to be up there which I believe we are doing now but the first team needed the investment initially to get us where we are now. We should see more youth recruitment happen in the summer.

I happen to think both things are true. Yes, our recruitment could do with some juicing and I've made the same argument aswell, but I also think it's more nuanced than just flinging the rest of them out to teams to sink or swim. Even if we remove the development aspect, it's a very insufficient way to make money from our youth system. At the very least, we should try not to set them up to fail, which is what I think some of these loans are tantamount to. They're definitely not all gonna make it but we could still do a bit better. @Rasmi goes on to kind of make my point for me as I was at work. Sometimes you can't just play your way into the manager's plans, quality or not. They're just not gonna play you. And that's my main bone of contention. We've seen Reiss Nelson kill it in training nearly every time there's a video of him only to never, ever play - even when he's had a good cameo he doesn't play. I'd imagine it's not so different elsewhere. I wonder how different Swansea's season would be if Patino had more trust? We'll never know because even though Patino had good numbers the manager just doesn't fancy him. He has his flaws sure, but is he really that bad?

Sagoe Jr I can understand but again, why Swansea? He's played 1 pro game! Sink or swim I guess, but I still think that was a waste of time that could have been avoided.

I honestly don't mean to come across as being harsh, I really don't. I really want alot of these guys to do well as much as you do. I go back to my point where I mentioned Brooke Norton-Cuffy doing really well to get 100 appearances in the EFL across L1 and The Championship. I think that's excellent what he's achieved but you 'seem' to think he should have been tested at a higher technical level. Well, doesn't that in a way undermine those achievements? One could say, you are being a little harsh for undermining those achievements (do you see where i'm coming from?)

Maybe the next stage will be to get a loan move to abroad to that technical team, maybe a team in France that is competing in European competition (either Europa League or Conference League) just so he can gain experience of adapting to different lifestyles, different language, being out of your comfort zone, away from friends/family.

It would be well deserved as everywhere Arsenal have sent him, he has proved himself and competed at the level served in front of him.

I think the harshness for me is coming from the implication that the loan players' failings are their own inability to challenge rather than it also potentially being an unwillingness on the part of the loan club to actually do something with them. That may not be what you meant but it comes across that way and that's mainly what I think is a little harsh. It's minor tbh, I think football and fan criticism goes hand in hand.

WRT Norton-Cuffy, my comment about his technical development has less to do with him and more to do with the brutal teams we've sent him to play for (again, that's me taking aim at our loaning process!). Lincoln were a good, possession based side under Appleton and Norton-Cuffy thrived there. He then went to a terrible Rotherham team and struggled. Coventry were significantly better but he played in a back 5 system that used him almost exclusively in an attacking role. He did very well there in the end and got to a Playoff final. This Millwall loan I'm really not a massive fan of. He's done really well there, but whenever I've watched Millwall, they're a terrible looking team. Norton-Cuffy had a cameo recently where he completed 0% of his passes (granted, only 7 attempted, 3 of which were headers IIRC).

Have a cursory glance at Norton-Cuffy's assist at the weekend. The passage of play that precedes it is diabolical! I think if Norton-Cuffy is going to reach the next level, we really need to see how he fares in a possession team next year - and that's if we don't sell him. I like Norton-Cuffy a lot and I think his achievements at his age are incredible. It's precisely because I think he's a big talent that I think we could probably handle him better, even if he doesn't end up an Arsenal player.

 

[MutableEarth]

Maybe, it depends on if he feels he can compete with our current first team options or not. If he feels, he can compete with Ben White, and try to give him a "run for his money" then why not, fair play to him for having the mentality to want to try and stake his place in the first team. That's the level of mentality required to not only make it at Arsenal football cub but at any professional football club. He's still only 20 so he's got time.

I'd like to think he does to be honest. I watched an England U21 game recently and Norton-Cuffy played an inverted RB role and looked more comfortable than I expected him to look. There's definitely a resilience to him in how he has taken to Championship football at his age. He could quite easily do a role with maybe an extra season more of experience. Even if he doesn't, I still expect him to end up in the PL at a comfortable level.

 

[teamsoutheast]

Sagoe Jr I can understand but again, why Swansea? He's played 1 pro game! Sink or swim I guess, but I still think that was a waste of time that could have been avoided.

I think it was a great opportunity for Sagoe Jr to showcase what he can do at EFL level. Luke Williams wanted pacy direct wingers. He signed Ronald, Placheta and Sagoe Jr. Thus far, he's showing that he's not better than either of them. He's got to show he's better than both of them to be selected. Luke Williams isn't Swansea manager to develop players from other clubs. He's there to win at all costs and this is the harsh reality. Would a L1 loan have been better..... maybe.... `but the opportunity was there for him to prove himself at a higher level and unfortunately it seems a little too high for him.

We've seen Reiss Nelson kill it in training nearly every time there's a video of him only to never, ever play - even when he's had a good cameo he doesn't play.

With Reiss it's a mental thing. Arteta clearly does rate him otherwise I don't believe he would have offered him that contract. He's played with him and knows the quality he has but every time Reiss kept coming on he looked nervous. He did also have injuries at crucial points TBF which also knocked his confidence. Saka comes on at LB, he looks confident, Saka comes on at LW, he looks confident, Saka plays at RW, he looks confident, Martinelli does the same, and before you know it, they are ahead of you. I think this affected Reiss mentally as he has always been in a situation where he is "That Guy" but not anymore. If he's not careful, and Nwaneri impresses and progresses further it will not look good for him. He actually went to see a sport psychologist to help him.

 

[lomekian]

Sorry guys, I'm not buying this "loan wasn't a good decision" nonsense. The player also has to also prove himself just as every other professional footballer would. The bottom line is, some of our young players are just not good enough to play at the level they have been put up against. Some of them are struggling at Vanarama National level (Kido Taylor-Hart for example).

We need a serious overhaul of our youth recruitment system which I believe is underway following the acquistion of Brayden Clarke. We need to get the "cream of the crop" as the bar has been raised on every level. Tottenham top the U23 and U18's leagues and that's where we need to be if we are going to have a conveyor belt of talent.

Man City seem to produce ready made EFL players who can just walk into their loan teams.

* Taylor Hawood Bellis STARTS at Southampton. Was also starting when he was at Burnley last season.

* Liam Delap STARTS for Hull.

* Jan Couto STARTS for Girona.

* Luke Mbete STARTS for Den Bosch.

* Alex Robertson STARTS for Portsmouth.


Do you see where I'm going with this? The bar has been raised and we need to be up there which I believe we are doing now but the first team needed the investment initially to get us where we are now. We should see more youth recruitment happen in the summer.

Both of you are right. The talent crop for the currently 19-21 age group has mostly been poor in terms of their development and their floor...whether this is anything to do with u21 coaching is too early to say imo - but equally the loan choices have been poor. A young player with at most 1 or 2 professional games under their belt is always going to find it hard going to a championship club mid season, particularly if the club is either chasing the playoffs or fighting relegation.

I agree if a player struggles to make an impact at that level, they are going to have little chance of making it here (unless the manager is just a Pulis), but we still need to maximise their future sale value. Sagoe should have gone to league 1 club, because he is very unlikely to make it here, but has some interesting elements into his skillset, and could have made a major impact at a club at a lower level.

Realistically, 95% of our u18s and u21s are not going to make it here, so we need to do as much as possible for them to maximise their value for us and ensure pro careers for themselves. This is different to a TJJ situation, where his loans have all been good fits, but he's just been incredibly unlucky with injuries.