• ! ! ! IMPORTANT MESSAGE ! ! !

    Discussions about police investigations

    In light of recent developments about a player from Premier League being arrested and until there is an official announcement, ALL users should refrain from discussing or speculating about situations around personal off-pitch matters related to any Arsenal player. This is to protect you and the forum.

    Users who disregard this reminder will be issued warnings and their posts will get deleted from public.

General Reserves Talk

  • Thread starter M+D
  • Start date
  • Replies 11,736
  • Views 1,150,167

MutableEarth

Reiss' Dad
Trusted ⭐

Important signing for the academy. One of our strongest prospects.

Also, concerning news - might be BS - but I heard a rumour that Ethan Nwaneri is strongly on Liverpools radar and they've already made a move for him. It doesn't surprise me, we've known since their names became known that everyone and their wives are interested in him and Myles Lewis-Skelly aswell.
 

Geofranco

Would let Saka date his daughter

Player:Saka

Important signing for the academy. One of our strongest prospects.

Also, concerning news - might be BS - but I heard a rumour that Ethan Nwaneri is strongly on Liverpools radar and they've already made a move for him. It doesn't surprise me, we've known since their names became known that everyone and their wives are interested in him and Myles Lewis-Skelly aswell.
If we keep one of Skelly or Nwaneri then we have done well. Really happy Duberry has signed. He looks so much older in that pic lol. Very talented kid. Intelligent, agile, slick on the ball and tenacious off it. I honestly rate him higher than Hutchinson.
 

Wagwaan

Active Member
I seen that Joel Lopez has been released 😳. Thought he had potential for the first team, could be a mistake letting him go.
 

MutableEarth

Reiss' Dad
Trusted ⭐
I seen that Joel Lopez has been released 😳. Thought he had potential for the first team, could be a mistake letting him go.
Not for me. I'll try to keep it political but personally I didn't expect him to make it at all. Lino Sousa, the new lad we signed, is a much better prospect IMO.
 

MutableEarth

Reiss' Dad
Trusted ⭐
If we keep one of Skelly or Nwaneri then we have done well. Really happy Duberry has signed. He looks so much older in that pic lol. Very talented kid. Intelligent, agile, slick on the ball and tenacious off it. I honestly rate him higher than Hutchinson.
I think he has more tools than Hutchinson. The Saka to Hutchinson's Reiss IMO. Hutchinson is obviously a very exciting player with great shooting and dribbling but he's also a bit more specific and slightly less team-oriented aswell. Will be interesting to see who does well out of him and Flores.

Think with Cozier-Duberry he's got a few more strings in his bow, can play deeper, a bit more self-effacing at certain moments - not that Hutchinson isn't but he's much more likely to take on more than he can chew.
 

Geofranco

Would let Saka date his daughter

Player:Saka
I seen that Joel Lopez has been released 😳. Thought he had potential for the first team, could be a mistake letting him go.
It was always obvious Lopez was never gonna make it here. Nothing special about him. Nothing really stands out physically or technically in his game.
 

teamsoutheast

Well-Known Member
It was always obvious Lopez was never gonna make it here. Nothing special about him. Nothing really stands out physically or technically in his game.
There was something about his posture on the pitch when he played that wasn't quite right. He didnt seem to enjoy games he was playing in. I think he will go back to Spain.
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England

1655123497179.png


By Art de Roché
Jun 13, 2022

Connections and relationships are crucial in everyday life. Things are no different in the world of football and over the past few seasons, Arsenal have started to benefit from forming new relationships across the game in England.

Since Ben Knapper’s appointment as loan manager in 2019, Arsenal have found multiple clubs and coaches they trust with their young players.

Doncaster Rovers loaned Ben Sheaf in the 2019-20 season, Tyreece John-Jules in 2020-21 and Matt Smith in 2021-22. Lincoln City also had John-Jules in the back end of 2019-20, while taking Brooke Norton-Cuffy for the second half of last season. Neil Critchley-led Blackpool built trust with their development of Daniel Ballard in 2020-21 before loaning John-Jules when they were promoted to the Championship last summer. Danny Cowley has also had Emile Smith Rowe at Huddersfield Town in 2019-20 and Miguel Azeez at Portsmouth in the first half of last season.

There is no way of predicting exactly how a loan will pan out for each individual player. Mitigating factors, such as injuries, could impact on their progress, for instance.

In building trust with certain teams and coaches, however, Arsenal have found environments where they are comfortable for their youngsters to make their first steps in senior football.

How are these relationships formed?

Relationships and connections with these clubs are not contractual or formal, but have largely developed in unexpected ways. Many may assume Arsenal’s affinity with Lincoln City in the loan market began after the two clubs met in the 2017 FA Cup quarter-final, but the more substantial connections were not made until the new dawns at each club.

“Danny Cowley (then Lincoln City manager) told me about that Arsenal game, how kind Arsène Wenger was after the game with his time,” Lincoln City director of football Jez George, who took on the role in May 2018, tells The Athletic. “Danny and Nicky had left and I’d come in, so Arsène Wenger wasn’t manager of Arsenal and Danny Cowley wasn’t manager of Lincoln.

“Sometimes people don’t quite appreciate the depth of people there is at clubs behind the manager. From our perspective, we always want to be a club that is looking at those ‘A-star’ loans. Certainly at our level, it’s really hard for us to compete in League One against some of the huge clubs in the division with much bigger budgets than us without supplementing our group with some of those younger players.

“The first relationship with Arsenal was our chief scout Marc Tracy had been in constant contact with Ben Knapper about the potential of taking Tyreece John-Jules in January 2020.”

In other instances, rather than starting from scratch, it is more about handing the baton of the relationship to the next appropriate person at a club. Arsenal had already loaned Sheaf and John-Jules to Doncaster Rovers by the time Graham Younger (who has since departed the club) arrived as talent ID manager in May 2021. With this in mind, the League One side (now League Two) were keen to maintain their strong relationship with Arsenal and, off the back of other strong connections, signed Smith on loan in the summer.

“Matt was a player we identified statistically before we took him on loan with a good data report,” Younger told The Athletic during his time at Doncaster Rovers. “Richie Wellens (then Doncaster manager) signed Matt previously for Swindon Town, so he knew all about him. It was a really positive loan when he was there, they were really happy with it so the foundation of the manager relationship was already there.

“We felt we had as much information as possible to make the best-informed decision going forward. Coupled with the clubs’ relationship, everything had really strong foundations to make it quite a smooth process.”

What are deciding factors with these loans?

For all the benefits of becoming familiar with certain clubs and coaches, that is not the only way the Arsenal loan system works.

Knapper has built a reputation for his detailed approach to selecting where players will be sent on loan, most notably with the Dragons’ Den-style process Leeds United went through to secure Eddie Nketiah on loan in the summer of 2019. That included a presentation from Leeds on how they saw Nketiah at their club to ensure they were the best fit. That approach has been replicated since then.

As with any negotiation, this is something all parties will do to make sure the player suits their potential loan club. Looking at the game time a player will get, the head coach/manager, style of play as well as off-pitch matters are crucial.

“If it didn’t quite fit for us, we’ll be honest and tell Ben (Knapper),” George says. “The worst thing we can do is take a player from a bigger club because we think we should to maintain a relationship where actually we don’t see that player playing enough, as then we destroy the relationship.

“We have to be mindful all the time of saying no sometimes because it’s not right for us. And therefore it wouldn’t be right for the player. And then it wouldn’t be right for the relationship.”

During Ballard’s loan at Blackpool, he described them as “the perfect fit”. In League One at the time, Ballard got much-needed exposure as a centre-back, but also played under a manager in Critchley who wanted his defenders to play out from the back, which the Northern Ireland international had started doing at under-23s level for Arsenal. Cementing himself in their defence, he helped them to promotion via the play-offs before joining Millwall on loan in the Championship.

Despite being a different playing style, the move was still seen as a good fit and the 22-year-old is now established in the Football League and international scene.

Knapper and Arsenal will also do homework on the prospective loan clubs to ensure they are suited to taking the player, which was clear throughout the process of John-Jules’ loan to Lincoln.

lincoln-loan


John-Jules celebrates a goal during his loan spell at Lincoln City (Photo: Chris Vaughan/CameraSport via Getty Images)
“As all clubs should be, and Ben is particularly thorough in this, making sure that the football club that’s inquiring for a loan is a good fit for the player (is vital). So he’d know about the formation that we played and whether it looked like it’d be a good fit for Tyreece,” George explains.

“We had Tyler Walker on loan from Nottingham Forest. So although we were inquiring about Tyreece, Arsenal’s opinion was: ‘Well, you’ve got Tyler so we don’t quite see how that would work’.”

Early that January, Forest told Lincoln of their intentions to recall Walker. That got the ball rolling with Arsenal and John-Jules but, quite literally, there was still a lot of mileage to cover.

“I remember really clearly, we were playing Sunderland the very next day. But myself, Joe Hutchinson, who is head of analysis, and Marc Tracy, our chief scout, just said: ‘Can we jump in a car, come and meet with this afternoon and do a presentation?’ and that’s what we did,” George recalls.

“So on that Friday afternoon, before we played Sunderland, we drove down to Arsenal’s training ground. We sat in their office doing a presentation. We wanted to show a bit of intent. That was actually the first time we met with Ben (in person). From there, we’ve built a relationship with Ben and Arsenal.”

As well as becoming more focused on suitability, there have been external factors that have resulted in English clubs, not just Arsenal, loaning to League One and Championship clubs more often of late.

“Brexit rules do restrict what clubs can do now,” Younger added. “Also, my personal opinion is that League One and the Championship is as close to the Premier League as it can get in terms of experience.

“I understand and totally appreciate why clubs would go to places like the Eredivisie to get a much more technical game at a slower pace, it’s a bit more tactical. They also might go to the (Premiership) in Scotland which is quite physical.

“You are looking at what is going to aid a specific individual’s development and enable them to progress, bridge the gap and come back to their parent club’s first team.”

How do players fit on the pitch?

Norton-Cuffy’s spell at Lincoln is the most recent example of a player out on loan meeting demands transferable to the Arsenal first team.

The Athletic watched him live at Charlton Athletic away in April and one of the main takeaways was his ability to beat the press by passing off both feet. Takehiro Tomiyasu made an instant impact by doing this in the first team.

Speaking about this, Lincoln’s then head coach Michael Appleton said: “We work a lot on putting it around the corner with the full-backs knowing that either one of the No 8s or the striker will be there.

“It’s not luck, he practises it every single day for five-10 minutes after training, so all the work is down to him. He’s putting the graft in so when it happens in games, he’s comfortable doing it.”

Explaining how the loan process works at Lincoln, George says: “The credit goes to Joe Hutchinson and Marc Tracy. They’re the guys who identify the players. They make sure they’re identifying players that fit our style and our structure, not just good players. There’s hundreds of good players around the place, but they don’t all fit the way we necessarily play.

“If both sets of analysts at both clubs do their jobs properly, it should be a fit. That’s what happened with Brooke.”

The perception of loans

Players and the clubs are often stepping into the unknown when a player is exposed to a senior environment for the first time.

Sometimes, unforeseeable challenges can complicate matters.

At RB Leipzig, for instance, Emile Smith Rowe slipping into somebody else’s boots, because his hadn’t arrived yet, reaggravated an injury he arrived at the German club with. Leipzig were still impressed by the then 18-year-old, bringing him on at 0-0 against Bayern Munich, but he only managed three Bundesliga appearances.

smith-rowe


Smith Rowe struggled with injuries during his loan spell at RB Leipzig (Photo: Jan Woitas/Picture Alliance via Getty Images)
John-Jules’ first loan at Lincoln was also quite tough.

“No one is saying League One is better than this or that,” George says. “There are good players and clubs who set up well in League One. I do think people can underestimate how hard it is to go with a really good young player and transition from under-23s football to League One football and hit the ground running.

“That No 9 position is actually one of the more difficult positions to do it because there are still some physical duels with experienced and strong centre-backs in the league. Tyreece played a number of games and then the season got curtailed in the middle of March (due to the first lockdown).

“The games he played, I remember he scored one goal, but he was unfortunate with three or four chances that he probably should have scored. The loan would have looked very different (if he took those chances), because he would have probably scored one in every two games, and everybody would have been really positive.

“I think what Arsenal do well, and hopefully we do as well, is look beyond the outcomes. We felt he did well when he was in the team. And we felt that if the season continued, he would have scored goals. The fact that he got injured, no one can do anything about that, it was an impact injury.”

It was also a steep learning curve for Folarin Balogun during his loan at Middlesbrough.

Having scored 15 goals in 13 games for Arsenal Under-21s/23s in the first half of last season, he only managed three goals and three assists in 21 games at Middlesbrough. Yet he showed moments of quality during games, playing in a two-man strike partnership for the most part, but gaining valuable experiences that never came in academy football.

At Millwall away, for instance, Balogun was up against a back three with Ballard one of his markers. The 20-year-old was met by strong, robust challenges throughout the afternoon and was booed by those at The Den after he had an unsuccessful penalty appeal.

“It’s intimidating, it’s on top of you,” Middlesbrough manager Chris Wilder said post-match. “Supporters get behind their own players and do what they need to do to opposition players. You’ve got to take it and give it out in equal terms.

“It’s great for Flo. He got booted a couple of times early on, which I’ve got no issue with. It’s a physical, contact game and I thought his reaction was really good.”
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
Why communication matters during loan spells

Loan moves do not always work out as planned.

Azeez made just 10 appearances for Portsmouth but Cowley showed why a base level of trust was built with Arsenal due to his transparency on the situation, highlighting the midfielder’s defensive work as an area for development.

Speaking to The Athletic after spending the second half of the season fulfilling multiple midfield roles for the under-23s, Azeez said: “It was about me going out of my way to do extra stuff after training with one of the assistants; him kicking the ball randomly and me judging where the ball will land to pick up seconds. There was a mixture of analysis with coaches and me actually going out and practising myself.”

When a player is out on loan, that club provides weekly data reports from matches and training, which include GPS output as well as regular correspondence with medical and sports science departments. Performance analysis departments are also in touch while Knapper tries to attend games as often as he can.

He was at William Saliba and Matteo Guendouzi’s match for Marseille against Paris Saint-Germain early in the season, as well as their UEFA Conference League semi-final match-up with Reiss Nelson’s Feyenoord.

Keeping up a close relationship between clubs, such as Lincoln City, shows the trust developed between staff members across departments.

This enabled Lincoln to take Norton-Cuffy on loan in January this year when they had an injury crisis in defence.



“We were very honest with Arsenal in terms of his opportunity to play and how we structured the deal so that everybody went into the loan with their eyes wide open. Sometimes it’s easy in football to over-promise because you’re in a position where you desperately need something,” George continues.

“So we were almost, perhaps too honest, with Ben in terms of the opportunities that Brooke might have. But I think because of that, Arsenal appreciated the honesty and the transparency. Thankfully, Brooke said yes, did fantastically well and probably even exceeded our expectations.”

Importance of off-pitch matters during a loan

For all the on-pitch progress of a loan player, ensuring their surroundings are up to standard is essential. The main objective is that when they step on the pitch, they have no worries off it.

Most clubs have player liaison officers or operations managers among other support staff who help them acclimatise. To make it easier for players to integrate into their new squad, some clubs rent nearby houses for players to either share or live near each other.

Ballard particularly benefitted from this at Millwall, with midfielder Billy Mitchell saying: “Dan’s a great player, and he’s turned into one of my best mates as well. Dan’s staying nearby so we do meet up fairly often.”

At Doncaster there is a particular focus on life skills, such as cooking, to ensure players get sufficient nutrition outside the training ground.

What happens at the end of a loan?

At the end of a loan, Knapper leads debriefs with loan clubs to assess both positive and negative aspects of the experience.

There would be a debrief between the clubs as well as a conversation with the player to pick up on the key learning points.

Arsenal still have areas for improvement, especially with regards to the first team.

There is little doubt, however, that becoming more focused in their approach to outgoing loans in the past three years has been a clear strategy that has helped them improve in that area.
 

Afro Mugo

Active Member

Important signing for the academy. One of our strongest prospects.

Also, concerning news - might be BS - but I heard a rumour that Ethan Nwaneri is strongly on Liverpools radar and they've already made a move for him. It doesn't surprise me, we've known since their names became known that everyone and their wives are interested in him and Myles Lewis-Skelly aswell.
The rumour has been there for a while and I'll be surprised if either of them moved right now. They are clearly the two biggest talents in the academy currently, and the club has fast tracked them as a result. If they were still u16s and u15s , I would have been worried as we lost Femi Fapetu, Harrison Parker and Ronnie Stutter to City, United and Chelsea respectively. I would have been equally scared if it was an International club or if they hadn't began playing with u18s already. Malcolm Ebiowei aside , who we released , we rarely lose such huge talents at the u18 stage unless its internationally as it happened with Musah who found an easier route to the first team. Liverpool are a better team than us which means chances are harder. They do not sign their scholarships until end of next season so they'll be a lot of rumours but I trust Mertesacker and Herron to get it right with them.
 

Afro Mugo

Active Member
I think he has more tools than Hutchinson. The Saka to Hutchinson's Reiss IMO. Hutchinson is obviously a very exciting player with great shooting and dribbling but he's also a bit more specific and slightly less team-oriented aswell. Will be interesting to see who does well out of him and Flores.

Think with Cozier-Duberry he's got a few more strings in his bow, can play deeper, a bit more self-effacing at certain moments - not that Hutchinson isn't but he's much more likely to take on more than he can chew.
I think the club rate Flores higher, its only that Omari is more physically developed so he was pushed faster to the u23s but IMO Flores has slightly more to his game. He is equally a good dribbler, set piece taker and scorer. However his off the ball game and creativity is slightly superior. I also think his escapades as the hope of Mexico has benefitted him mentally.
 

Geofranco

Would let Saka date his daughter

Player:Saka
I think the club rate Flores higher, its only that Omari is more physically developed so he was pushed faster to the u23s but IMO Flores has slightly more to his game. He is equally a good dribbler, set piece taker and scorer. However his off the ball game and creativity is slightly superior. I also think his escapades as the hope of Mexico has benefitted him mentally.
I just don't see it with Flores. Looks like another dribble merchant to me. One of those selfish players who look good at lower levels, but will be clattered to pieces in a more physical league. But I might be wrong, we'll see how he keeps developing. He is also older than Duberry who himself is still not that physically developed.
 

TheDrunkenMaster

Active Member
I think he has more tools than Hutchinson. The Saka to Hutchinson's Reiss IMO. Hutchinson is obviously a very exciting player with great shooting and dribbling but he's also a bit more specific and slightly less team-oriented aswell. Will be interesting to see who does well out of him and Flores.

Think with Cozier-Duberry he's got a few more strings in his bow, can play deeper, a bit more self-effacing at certain moments - not that Hutchinson isn't but he's much more likely to take on more than he can chew.
Is Cozier–Duberry more of a left wing back in a 352? His goalscoring record doesnt look that great otherwise
 

Afro Mugo

Active Member
I just don't see it with Flores. Looks like another dribble merchant to me. One of those selfish players who look good at lower levels, but will be clattered to pieces in a more physical league. But I might be wrong, we'll see how he keeps developing. He is also older than Duberry who himself is still not that physically developed.
I get why you feel that way . He dribbles a lot and can be selfish at times . I've seen him clash with Biereth more than once. When I've seen him play as a 10 he dribbles less and has an eye for a good through pass. What I like about him is his off the ball game is really good, he knows how to find space to receive a pass or to score.
 

Afro Mugo

Active Member
The rumour has been there for a while and I'll be surprised if either of them moved right now. They are clearly the two biggest talents in the academy currently, and the club has fast tracked them as a result. If they were still u16s and u15s , I would have been worried as we lost Femi Fapetu, Harrison Parker and Ronnie Stutter to City, United and Chelsea respectively. I would have been equally scared if it was an International club or if they hadn't began playing with u18s already. Malcolm Ebiowei aside , who we released , we rarely lose such huge talents at the u18 stage unless its internationally as it happened with Musah who found an easier route to the first team. Liverpool are a better team than us which means chances are harder. They do not sign their scholarships until end of next season so they'll be a lot of rumours but I trust Mertesacker and Herron to get it right with them.
On this Nwaneri thing, I saw a statement from a somewhat reliable source that Liverpool are putting big money on him(pro contract when he turns 17) especially as they missed the opportunity to sign Bellingham at 16. Of course if the lure him, such cases go to a tribunal. We will have to wait and see.
 

Latest posts+

Top Bottom