• ! ! ! IMPORTANT MESSAGE ! ! !

    Discussions about police investigations

    In light of recent developments about a player from Premier League being arrested and until there is an official announcement, ALL users should refrain from discussing or speculating about situations around personal off-pitch matters related to any Arsenal player. This is to protect you and the forum.

    Users who disregard this reminder will be issued warnings and their posts will get deleted from public.

Granit Xhaka: 2019/20 Performances

Status
Not open for further replies.

RacingPhoton

Established Member
Yes, 'the point of sport is the booing' :facepalm:

If your boss shouts at you at work, they're a bad boss. They can and should be held accountable for their actions and there are specific procedures for dealing with performance issues at work. SINGLING ONE WORKER out and group booing them is absolutely not part of that and would constitue harrassment and probably involve some kind of legal challenge for the employer. Terrible example.

Also, it's just a nasty, compassionless thing to do. So it can and should be criticised, not excused for....

If Xhaka can't "shout f-off", why can thousands of Arsenal supporters do it to him in the first place and it be acceptable and regarded as anything other than bad conduct?

Xhaka was playing busy playing football at the time of the match. He was kind of occupied. He was a little distracted from documenting every abusive taunt he heard and attributing to whom it was directed, working out if it was directed at his family etc etc. So just because he hasn't cited specifically verbal abuse in the stadium, it doesn't mean it didn't feel to him, a man who has received online threats to his family, a man who has seen team mates robbed at knife point, that he was under threat.

Xhaka obviously wasn't generalising and labelling all fans as bad, he was responding to thousands giving him abuse for NO REASON.

This isn't about trying to justify Xhaka's behaviour. He's acknowledged he made a mistake. What this is about is fans trying to justify their despicable behaviour in goading him for NO REASON, in the first place. That's what you've done and continue to do.

Please stop desperately seeking to justify the unjustifiable with this rubbish reasoning...
"Specific procedures for dealing with performance issues" This applies only for white collar jobs. And how else are fans supposed to show displeasure? By setting up one-one meetings with Xhaka and respectfully say that he is a ****ty player?
Again. i ask you to read the post I mentioned to see the sequence of events. It was Xhaka's actions which made the situation worse. All he had to do was sprint faster when he was subbed off. But no. Being the whiny child he is, he started throwing tantrums. And what right does he have to disrespect Auba there. Xhaka is not even 5% a player Auba is. So he will disrespect Auba too because some fans abused him online?
 

Red London

Anti-Simp Culture
Trusted ⭐
No I'm not.

I'm saying that none of us know what he felt. He's explained this to some degree and I say we should accept his explanation. I'm saying we should therefore show compassion for him in what was a highly pressured situation.

When you have two options about how to perceive a situation you don't know about. Er on the side of kindness and compassion to the human being.
I don't personally need an apology or whatever else. This is a results business and like I did a few weeks ago before this whole issue, I want Xhaka out of the first team and probably out the club.

That hasnt changed
 

Balboa

Active Member
What is your point then? That what he did was professional?

There are fans on twitter being racist to Pogba and Rashford after missing pens, I dont consider them United fans. People hurling abuse at someone on social media is barbaric and shouldn't be considered as representative of the club.

Xhaka should be able to realise, and separate what he sees online from keyboard warriors as different to what he experiences in front of fans in the stadium. I am not condoning booing players but the fans wanted a way to show the manager that Xhaka is crap and shouldnt be our captain. Were you at the stadium? My friends went and they said the booing started when he started acting the way he did.

That what he experienced was unacceptable behaviour from supporters and under pressure he made an understandable mistake. That doesn't mean that his behaviour was good. It just means that he can and should be shown compassion and the actions of the supporters should be criticisded and not excused. It isn't hard to do.

Why should Xhaka "be able to realise, and separate what he sees online from keyboard warriors as different to what he experiences in front of fans in the stadium"

People keep saying this but they don't explain why. He's payed to play football, not deal with online abuse and view it as completely sepearate under extraordinary circumstances where he is for NO REASON, being singled out by the supporters of HIS OWN CLUB, for abuse.

Why not just have supporters stop unjustifiably abusing their own players in the first place and avoid the whole thing in the first place? Admit it is wrong instead of constantly justifying it.
 

Balboa

Active Member
Can't fault you mate - you're enjoying having a moan about these whiny fans (whom pay through the nose for tickets might I add).

I am arguing against fans abusing their own player. That's not the same as booing or something like that. I am arguing for my point and criticising the points made by others. If I was singling people out and calling them names, that would be different, but I haven't done that.

The people who did it and who justify it are arguing that they can have a tantrum because of their feelings about the football at Arsenal, and take it out on an individual for NO REASON.

Then they expect Xhaka, who they claim is not fit for Arsenal, to react with superhuman calm when under fire from extraordinary, sustained abuse.
 

Balboa

Active Member
I don't personally need an apology or whatever else. This is a results business and like I did a few weeks ago before this whole issue, I want Xhaka out of the first team and probably out the club.

That hasnt changed

And the point of the debate is that singling out the player and booing them is not an acceptable way to try to make that happen.
 

Red London

Anti-Simp Culture
Trusted ⭐
Why should Xhaka "be able to realise, and separate what he sees online from keyboard warriors as different to what he experiences in front of fans in the stadium"

People keep saying this but they don't explain why. He's payed to play football, not deal with online abuse and view it as completely sepearate
Lol, unless you want complete cencorship of social media how is it going to ever get to the stage where there is no abuse? Why are the fans who are solely focused on their team playing well responsible for so called fans online who abuse players?

The world will always have sickos, will always have crime, murder, abuse... how is that ever going to change. It is up to the individual to prevent that happening by not reading them, blocking comments, or getting off of social media.

The world isnt fair and just, Xhaka is a big boy he should be able to realise that he needs to block this out and get off social media, but maybe hes told not to for commercial ventures.... I dont know, but it is 100% avoidable in the future.
 

Balboa

Active Member
"Specific procedures for dealing with performance issues" This applies only for white collar jobs. And how else are fans supposed to show displeasure? By setting up one-one meetings with Xhaka and respectfully say that he is a ****ty player?
Again. i ask you to read the post I mentioned to see the sequence of events. It was Xhaka's actions which made the situation worse. All he had to do was sprint faster when he was subbed off. But no. Being the whiny child he is, he started throwing tantrums. And what right does he have to disrespect Auba there. Xhaka is not even 5% a player Auba is. So he will disrespect Auba too because some fans abused him online?

I don't believe you. In the UK, where Xhaka works, workers have rights and the law prevents employers from abusing and harrassing employees in all jobs, regardles of whether they are blue or white collar....

Fans can show displeasure at the team. They can hold demonstrations against the club, they can boycott games, merchandise, concessions etc. Many were too lazy, selfish and compassionless to make that choice, so they just singled out and abused one player, making his and the teams performance WORSE!

The sequence of events is that the supporters goaded Xhaka and put him in an extraordinarily negative situation. He was under pressure and did not act perfectly.

Now you an other seek to justify the supporters actions and overreact to Xhaka's response, whilst showing insufficient compassion for the circumstances, which should never have occurred in the first place.

Did you ever consider the possibility that he was struggling psychologically to deal with the humiliation of being jeered off? Why do you expect him to "just run off".

I don't believe that he disrespected Auba. I think that is fiction.
 

RacingPhoton

Established Member
I don't believe you. In the UK, where Xhaka works, workers have rights and the law prevents employers from abusing and harrassing employees in all jobs, regardles of whether they are blue or white collar....

Fans can show displeasure at the team. They can hold demonstrations against the club, they can boycott games, merchandise, concessions etc. Many were too lazy, selfish and compassionless to make that choice, so they just singled out and abused one player, making his and the teams performance WORSE!

The sequence of events is that the supporters goaded Xhaka and put him in an extraordinarily negative situation. He was under pressure and did not act perfectly.

Now you an other seek to justify the supporters actions and overreact to Xhaka's response, whilst showing insufficient compassion for the circumstances, which should never have occurred in the first place.

Did you ever consider the possibility that he was struggling psychologically to deal with the humiliation of being jeered off? Why do you expect him to "just run off".

I don't believe that he disrespected Auba. I think that is fiction.
I work in the UK. Again, you are confusing booing with abusing. If you are doing a bad job, your boss tells you that your performance has been terrible. Fans booing at you is the same as that. That's not abuse.
His performance has been pathetic ever since he came here. Don't blame that on fans.
You can see Auba picking up the band from the ground.
The score was 2-2 and we were running out of time. The moment he was substituted, he should have started running off. That's what players do if they want their teams to win. If you watch the video, it is clear that the booing started only after he was half way out. That's the sequence of events for you.
 

Balboa

Active Member
Lol, unless you want complete cencorship of social media how is it going to ever get to the stage where there is no abuse? Why are the fans who are solely focused on their team playing well responsible for so called fans online who abuse players?

The world will always have sickos, will always have crime, murder, abuse... how is that ever going to change. It is up to the individual to prevent that happening by not reading them, blocking comments, or getting off of social media.

The world isnt fair and just, Xhaka is a big boy he should be able to realise that he needs to block this out and get off social media, but maybe hes told not to for commercial ventures.... I dont know, but it is 100% avoidable in the future.

The fans who booed and jeered their own player are responsible for their conduct which was unacceptable. It obviously won't help performance and will just make it worse.

It may be that online abuse is hard to deal with, that doesn't justify showing a lack of compassion for Xhaka's experience while he was dealing with unacceptable abuse from Arsenal fans.

If Xhaka is a "big boy" and "should be able to realise that he needs to block this out and get off social media" then why can't the supporters be "big boys" and stop abusing individual players for NO REASON, just because they feel frustrated?

Nobody said that the world was fair and just. That is a straw man argument.

Effectively that is what philosophers call the "Is-ought problem". Claims about what ought to be, based on statements about what is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem

Basically finding a convenient way to hide from the debate and justify having things the way you want them even though it could be better if the fans just improved their behaviour, which is entirely possible for them to do.
 
Last edited:

Balboa

Active Member
I work in the UK. Again, you are confusing booing with abusing. If you are doing a bad job, your boss tells you that your performance has been terrible. Fans booing at you is the same as that. That's not abuse.
His performance has been pathetic ever since he came here. Don't blame that on fans.
You can see Auba picking up the band from the ground.
The score was 2-2 and we were running out of time. The moment he was substituted, he should have started running off. That's what players do if they want their teams to win. If you watch the video, it is clear that the booing started only after he was half way out. That's the sequence of events for you.

And if someone at work starting booing and jeering at you, they could very easily get in trouble for harrassing you, whatever you do.

The fans are not Xhaka's boss, this analogy is terrible and unnecessary anyway. Everyone knows it's just a vindictive, compassionless thing to do to someone.

Booing your own player for no reason is abusive. It is an attempt to affect them psychologically by humiliating them in public. It is many thousands picking on an individual which is very clearly the definition of bullyiing.

Nobody argued that if Emery thinks Xhaka's performance isn't good, he can be told that. That is what happened with Mustafi. Xhaka's performance isn't terrible anyway. Plenty of the players at Arsenal are no better than him.

Oh boo hoo, Auba had to pick something up off the ground. How appalling. Nobody has ever dropped anything, or misdirected, a throw accidentally ever.....

The moment he was substituted, Xhaka was dealing with ABUSIVE jeering from his own supporters for NO REASON!!! He might have been a little devastated and humiliated by the whole experience of the game. What's his great crime to justify the attacks and ABUSE? He walked off in the face of humilation instead of running off like he "should have". Oh boo hoo. What an outrageous show of disrespect he showed in that moment of unacceptable weakness.

Stop pretending he's some perfect automaton, who has perfect control over everything he does - when it contradicts the whole reason fans are singling him out in the first place which is that he keeps making errors and bad decision in games!!!!

That is the whole paradox at the heart of the debate that you and others refuse to acknowledge.
 

RandomHero84

Established Member
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saka
I really don't like this habit that's forming of Arsenal fans thinking it's OK to bully our players.

The doesn't mean I think he should've been picked as captain, or isn't a problem to the balance of our starting 11. Our fans have never been so poisonous to our club and I really hate the culture.
 

RacingPhoton

Established Member
And if someone at work starting booing and jeering at you, they could very easily get in trouble for harrassing you, whatever you do.

The fans are not Xhaka's boss, this analogy is terrible and unnecessary anyway. Everyone knows it's just a vindictive, compassionless thing to do to someone.

Booing your own player for no reason is abusive. It is an attempt to affect them psychologically by humiliating them in public. It is many thousands picking on an individual which is very clearly the definition of bullyiing.

Nobody argued that if Emery thinks Xhaka's performance isn't good, he can be told that. That is what happened with Mustafi. Xhaka's performance isn't terrible anyway. Plenty of the players at Arsenal are no better than him.

Oh boo hoo, Auba had to pick something up off the ground. How appaling. Nobody has ever dropped anything, or misdirected a throw ever.....

The moment he was substituted, Xhaka was dealing with ABUSIVE jeering from his own supporters for NO REASON!!! He might have been a little devastated and humiliated by the whole experience of the game. What's his great crime to justify the attacks and ABUSE? He walked off in the face of humilation instead of running off like he "should have". Oh boo hoo. What an outrageous show of disrespect he showed in that moment of unacceptable weakness.

Stop pretending he's some perfect automaton, who has perfect control over everything he does - when it contradicts the whole reason fans are singling him out in the first place which is that he keeps making errors and bad decision in games!!!!

That is the whole paradox at the heart of the debate that you and others refuse to acknowledge.
Booing your own reason is abusive according to you. What about booing an opposite team player? Is that fine? Does the meaning of compassion change when the player is from different team?
The whole business is run by fans' money. Believe it or not. They are the bosses here.

And please. Don't repeat "No reason" again and again. There is a reason. As a player, he is crap. Even worse, he doesn't seem to accept it and improve on it. And FYI, Mustafi was booed off too. That never made such a big controversy because he handled it maturely. He even made a post recently taking responsibility for his mistake. Check the comments on that. Everyone was very supportive of him.

Bottom line. Xhaka is a crappy player who repeatedly cost us points. He never took responsibility for his mistakes which was even more disappointing for fans. During the match, there was a small jeer. He made the situation worse by his joker antics and got booed off. I feel that booing is a perfectly reasonable way for fans to show disappointment. Like Mustafi, most players try to improve themselves and win back the crowd. But Xhaka doesn't have that maturity.
 

Balboa

Active Member
Booing your own reason is abusive according to you. What about booing an opposite team player? Is that fine? Does the meaning of compassion change when the player is from different team?
The whole business is run by fans' money. Believe it or not. They are the bosses here.

And please. Don't repeat "No reason" again and again. There is a reason. As a player, he is crap. Even worse, he doesn't seem to accept it and improve on it. And FYI, Mustafi was booed off too. That never made such a big controversy because he handled it maturely. He even made a post recently taking responsibility for his mistake. Check the comments on that. Everyone was very supportive of him.

Bottom line. Xhaka is a crappy player who repeatedly cost us points. He never took responsibility for his mistakes which was even more disappointing for fans. During the match, there was a small jeer. He made the situation worse by his joker antics and got booed off. I feel that booing is a perfectly reasonable way for fans to show disappointment. Like Mustafi, most players try to improve themselves and win back the crowd. But Xhaka doesn't have that maturity.

Honestly yes, being booed by opposition supporters, who want results that you are competing against, is not the same type of humiliation as being singled out for abuse by fans of your own club, when you are trying your best to achieve things that they want. Surely we can agree on that?

That's not to say that abuse of opposition cannot go beyond acceptable, of course it can and frequently does with racism, homophobia, misogyny, transphobia etc.

Fans are not the bosses. That is obvious. It's a choice to go and watch football for leisure.

Xhaka is not crap. He's a professional footballer to a very high standard who has been picked to play for Arsenal. It doesn't matter how good he is, or whether he's good enough to take Arsenal to the level that fans want them to be at. Even if he isn't good enough, that does not give a good reason to single him out for abuse because he always tries to do his best for the club.

It is very important to point out that Xhaka did not do anything to deserve the abuse. If he'd done something to goad fans it would be more understandable, but he didn't do that. I'm pretty sure Xhaka invest plenty of time trying to do his best. Has he been found partying late before games? Late to training? Smoking in the toilets? Laughing gas? Trying to force the club to let him leave on a free transfer? Anything remotely bad? Nope.

If Mustafi was singled out, that was also wrong.

Oh, it's a "small jeer" now is it? That's a new point you're adding in late. Didn't sound small to me. Are you sure he wasn't, from his perspective, being booed throughout the game? That's what I heard was the case. He's clearly been singled out for abuse this season now that Mustafi isn't in the team.

It affects him online too. Imagine what Auba experiences when he goes online - people heaping praise on him I'd imagine. Xhaka is a guy in his 20s. Why shouldn't he be able to use social media just because he's subjected to threats and abuse?

Nice to see we expect maturity from players, even under pressure from goading home fans. Yet fans, under no pressure whatsoever, can boo a jeer like toddlers and you continue to justify it because "feelings of frustration".
 
Last edited:

YeahBee

Terrible hot takes
When we were signing Xhaka, I was really looking forward to it...one of the highest rated players in Germany linked with Bayern, what was there to not be excited about!

Tbf to him deep playmakers have it the hardest to adapt to England, due to the football most teams play...they normally like to get on the ball, then turn and scan the field...but in England they have to adapt to a constant press really, even a specific man marker...some can't adapt to that...look at Veron, one of the best deep playmakers ever, terrible at United and Chelsea really!

Xhaka just hasn't adapted, and just hasn't worked out here...hope we try to move him on as soon as possible, a good player, just not for Arsenal.


And then he is constantly (atleast this season) played as a CDM and we dont field a DM
Beginning of season its him and Guendozi who was all over the place

Likewise last season where Torreira was eased in and then had a big slump in form.

We've got several players out of position, questiobable formation and tactics and No coherance in neither

Yet all falls on Xhakas shoulders?

We didnt magically look better without him last game or any other game either really

The times he have been subbed early and we have looked better is because we swapped formation not because X isnt playing
 

RacingPhoton

Established Member
Honestly yes, being booed by opposition supporters, who want results that you are competing against, is not the same type of humiliation as being singled out for abuse by fans of your own club, when you are trying your best to achieve things that they want. Surely we can agree on that?

That's not to say that abuse of opposition cannot go beyodn acceptable, of course it can and frequently does with racism, homophobia, misogyny, transphobia etc.

Fans are not the bosses. That is obvious. It's a choice to go and watch football for leisure.

Xhaka is not crap. He's a professional footballer to a very high standard who has been picked to play for Arsenal. It doesn't matter how good he is, or whether he's good enough to take Arsenal to the level that fans want them to be at. Even if he isn't good enough, that does not give a good reason to single him out for abuse because he always tries to do his best for the club.

It is very important to point out that Xhaka did not do anything to deserve the abuse. If he'd done something to goad fans it would be more understandable, but he didn't do that. I'm pretty sure Xhaka invest plenty of time trying to do his best. Has he been found partying late before games? Late to training? Smoking in the toilets? Laughing gas? Trying to force the club to let him leave on a free transfer? Anything remotely bad? Nope.

If Mustafi was singled out, that was also wrong.

Oh, it's a "small jeer" now is it? That's a new point you're adding in late. Didn't sound small to me. Are you sure he wasn't, from his perspective, being booed throughout the game? That's what I heard was the case. He's clearly been singled out for abuse this season now that Mustafi isn't in the team.

It affects him online too. Imagine what Auba experiences when he goes online - people heaping praise on him I'd imagine. Xhaka is a guy in his 20s. Why shouldn't he be able to use social media just because he's subjected to threats and abuse?

Nice to see we expect maturity from players, even under pressure from goading home fans. Yet fans, under no pressure whatsoever, can boo a jeer like toddlers and you continue to justify it because "feelings of frustration".
Again you are contradicting yourself. You were all about compassion first. Now it is fine if you boo other team players. In the end, they are trying to play football to entertain us? And they all get disheartened when they get booed. Why not show some compassion for opponent players too?
All this seems to be just some complex moral standards you hold. Your idea of compassion and sportsmanship can be totally different from those of the fans who go to the stadium.

A professional footballer of very high standard? He holds the record for most number of errors leading to goals. If he worked hard as you said, he would have cut down on his errors. It's his attitude that lead him down. Elneny is probably the worst midfielder we ever had. Has he been booed off anytime?

Don't bring in online abuse yet again. That's a separate problem. I am on Xhaka's side on that one. I never told he has to stop using social media.
 

Balboa

Active Member
Again you are contradicting yourself. You were all about compassion first. Now it is fine if you boo other team players. In the end, they are trying to play football to entertain us? And they all get disheartened when they get booed. Why not show some compassion for opponent players too?
All this seems to be just some complex moral standards you hold. Your idea of compassion and sportsmanship can be totally different from those of the fans who go to the stadium.

A professional footballer of very high standard? He holds the record for most number of errors leading to goals. If he worked hard as you said, he would have cut down on his errors. It's his attitude that lead him down. Elneny is probably the worst midfielder we ever had. Has he been booed off anytime?

Don't bring in online abuse yet again. That's a separate problem. I am on Xhaka's side on that one. I never told he has to stop using social media.

Being booed by your own supporters is obviously totally different to being booed by opposition fans. I can't really believe you're daring to try to imply otherwise just to confect some incoherent, tangenital way of justifying the fact that Xhaka was put in a difficult situation by supporters when he should not have been.

The supporters were not in a difficult, pressured situation. They did the wrong thing. It is easy to say it. Easy to admit it. Easy to show compassion to him that it was a difficult situation to deal with even if he didn't respond perfectly. It is very simple if people stop being butt-hurt about the fact that Arsenal aren't as good as they were 15 years ago.

Yes, he's a professional footballer to a very high standard. The people who he kept out of Arsenal's team and the people who scored goals against Arsenal when he made mistakes were also professional footballers to very high standards. That's the thing when you play professional football for Arsenal, you have to play to a very high standard or you wouldn't be there.

How do you know he doesn't work hard to do his best to cut down on his errors? Where is the evidence that he doesn't work hard? Name one thing that indicated problematic attitude from him.

If he gets torrents of abuse when he uses social media then he obviously has to choose between abuse or social media. The idea that he should easily be able to separate that from the rest of his life is completely unreasonable.
 

Garrincha

Wilf Zaha Aficionado
Trusted ⭐
Players sure kept their heads down when Wenger getting booed / jeered / told to **** off every week. Its a wonder why they never spoke up if so offensive.

Its the atmosphere round the club generally... not a happy or content place. Personally no problem with that as we are playing poor, manager precarious now & slipping down the league. Its not a holiday camp.

The manager has been booed, the owner always gets booed & players get booed when out of favour or poor.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts+

Top Bottom