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Granit Xhaka: Managers Love Him!

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by Marjorie, Aug 18, 2020.

  1. Manberg

    Manberg Predator

    Ok I was looking at Europa league figures for the first part by mistake. Regardless, an increase of 0.05 expected assists per 90 minutes is nothing to highlight, that’s hardly any difference. Assists is not even a suitable comparison metric considering player roles.

    I don’t see how dribbles has a bearing on comparisons between being dispossessed when under pressure. You have failed to prove your claim that Xhaka loses the ball under pressure because it isn’t true.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  2. AbouCuéllar

    AbouCuéllar Well-Known Member

    Do I really have to explain why dispossessed should be adjusted according to a) volume b) carries c) dribbles attempted?

    Take a look at shot and goal creation to get an idea of the incisiveness of passing, along with xA.

    Anyways, I don't even particularly rate Jorginho that much (nor does Chelsea, from the looks of it, as they seem to want to upgrade him), I put him in a similar category to Xhaka, though I think he's probably the superior player (wouldn't seem to be going out on a limb there, as his defensive contribution is double and his passing stats look better in every way--more incisiveness, more volume, same efficiency).

    But if I talk about DLPs/DMs I do rate like Ceballos, Rodri, Fabinho, Gueye, Verratti, even Guendouzi (better passer and more press resistant than Xhaka), Bentacur, etc., you will just scream role, or team. So oh well.

    All I can say is when you are saying things like Xhaka is press resistant, Xhaka is one of the worlds best DLPs and would be considered so if he played for City, Xhaka is better or as good as Ceballos, or non-sensical things like pass % is all you need to know, I think it is clear you are deluding yourself to try and reach a certain conclusion.
     
  3. Manberg

    Manberg Predator

    @AbouCuéllar Here’s your comparison as of June 2019 (Rodri was playing for Atletico Madrid, in La Liga):

    Defensive actions:
    [​IMG]
    Ability on the ball:
    [​IMG]
    One-on-one duels:
    [​IMG]

    Make your own conclusion. Carry on pretending that Xhaka’s not one of the best DLP’s around, if you so wish. I’m done.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  4. AbouCuéllar

    AbouCuéllar Well-Known Member

    Uff, mate, why purposefully use such basic statistics instead of looking at the whole picture on fbREF or with more interesting stats in a radar, if the goal is not to deceive?

    I will say, something I've gleaned from all of this: is Fred perhaps one of the more underrated players in the Premier League?
     
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  5. Manberg

    Manberg Predator

    It’s the only comparison with graphics that I could find comparing the league’s best DLP’s. The metrics used are not my choice, but Squawka’s. It wasn’t presented as an argument for Xhaka, it was to suggest what Rodri could give City.

    Xhaka’s chance creation stats were better than I thought. I think Arteta needs to give him more creative freedom rather than the limited role he has at the moment. Most importantly, we need Partey to play beside him. Then he will come in to a league of his own. All the other DLP’s are playing next to a DM, except for Xhaka. That only makes Xhaka even better in comparison.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  6. Football Manager

    Football Manager Copy & Paste Merchant

    Ceballos is better in press resistance. He is a better dribbler. He is more like an attacking midfielder being played at a deeper position.

    However, does ceballos have the vision and passing range to ping those cross field passes to find his teammates in space? If we want to maintain this in our tactics, then replacing Xhaka with ceballos is not a good choice (Tonali/Roca/Cuisance could be good replacement)

    Xhaka and ceballos are different types of players and each has their strengths. Im not saying Xhaka or ceballos are at that level, but in terms of playing style, you are arguing whether Carrick or Cazorla is better.
     
  7. RacingPhoton

    RacingPhoton Well-Known Member

    No one gives a damn damn about his long passes because they hardly lead to goals. Tierney's long balls are much more effective than Xhaka, simply because Tierney is much more quicker in executing them.
     
  8. Football Manager

    Football Manager Copy & Paste Merchant

    It’s about progressing play. The 09 era Barcelona makes lots of passes before the actual killer pass. Do you think all those passes that progress play are meaningless?

    A good cross field pass can take the ball to a better position on the pitch, so our players can make another play in a better position. Then the players can do their own stuff, and then maybe pass it to another area, to create another play, progressing our play up the pitch. Finding better and better situations, until we open up a gap to make that killer pass.

    So, going back to that cross field pass that “hardly leads to goal”. It is never meant to be a chance creating pass, but it is a very import pass in our system to progress our play.

    And also, I don’t get the hate on backwards pass. If there’s no room of progressing, pass it back and build up again, maybe start attacking the other side of the pitch. Just look at how 09 Barcelona do it. As long as you have possession you will create chance.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  9. RacingPhoton

    RacingPhoton Well-Known Member

    I didn't say cross field passed are totally meaningless. Not sure why you have to write that pointless essay. The time Xhaka takes to make the passes makes it meaningless. What's the point of making that pass if the opponents have all the time to shift positions? It is easy to predict what he is going to do, a long time before he does it. But that's not the case with Tierney. That's the reason why Tierney's long passes have been lethal. He makes those passes under pressure. He makes those passes quickly. Xhaka can do neither. That's why we look good with Tierney and horrible without him.
     
    AbouCuéllar likes this.
  10. kash2

    kash2 Obsessed With Jury

    I just hope Cebaloos gets rid of his habit of getting the ball, and then going round like a dog chasing its tail, dribbling himself, and then finally passing it to someone nearby after 4-5 touches.
     
  11. AbouCuéllar

    AbouCuéllar Well-Known Member

    Yep, this is the point I started this long argument with. Xhaka is a fine passer with no pressure on him but under pressure he is nothing special or even somewhat deficient. We've seen this time and time again. You can see in the video posted against West Ham he is not under pressure for any of the good passes he makes. He's always played decently against sides who sit back and don't pressure. But then all deep lying midfielders will play better in those circumstances.

    The point you make is probably why his xG chain and xG buildup stats usually are quite underwhelming. His long passes simply aren't incisive in nature like Ceballos' or other midfielders, they tend to be rather obvious switches of play. Passing between the lines in an incisive fashion really just isn't his game, he's in general a maintainer of possession more than someone looking to advance it in interesting ways. Which, for the record, there's nothing wrong with, but there are players who do that job far better, while offering press resistance, far better defensive output, etc. But for some people here these players don't seem to exist o_O Arteta himself was more press resistant and much better defensively while offering a similar profile of passing from the 6.
     
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  12. Manberg

    Manberg Predator

    For the last time, Xhaka can play against the press. Go watch some youtube compilations or something and you’ll see him release the ball quickly when under pressure. You said Xhaka’s low dispossession stat as seen on your favourite website is misleading, so go do the eye test rather than spout the usual agenda nonsense of “Xhaka is poor under pressure”, which is not true at all.
     
  13. AbouCuéllar

    AbouCuéllar Well-Known Member

    I didn't say it's misleading, I said that it needs to be adjusted according to the type of actions a player is doing and the volume with which he is doing them. I also never agreed that a dispossession stat has much to do with press resistance at all...the correlation is probably pretty small, if we could measure press resistance, and it would have to be adjusted according to how many types of certain actions a player is doing in any case. A dispossessed stat in isolation means quite little.

    Not my favourite site, btw, I used it for the first time last night in this argument, it was enjoyable getting freaky with the stats for the first time in a while :). Like I said, certainly made me reconsider my views on Fred a bit.

    I don't have an agenda, I promise you...saying Xhaka is poor under pressure and is not press resistant I feel is stating common sense facts that we all have seen and know from watching him for a number of years. Never, ever, have I heard Xhaka's game be characterised by his press resistance except here last night. I thought him being a player that is not press resistant was saying a rather obvious, un-controversial thing that we all can agree on.

    But I get it, we are not going to agree, and that is fine, I don't have any graph or objective measure that speaks to his press resistance, so I think we can cordially agree to disagree, no hard feelings I hope, like I say I actually like Xhaka and rate him as a squad player with some good qualities, and we're all on the same team here (plus I see you in the youths thread, anyone who loves the youths is good in my book).
     
    Ibadan likes this.
  14. Rex Banter

    Rex Banter Got Swerved By Gallas Trusted

    Yeah but isn’t your goal to deceive as well?

    If you actually look at successful passes made under pressure last year Xhaka was 5th in the PL in terms of volume.

    If you adjust for per 90, Xhaka still led the team in that category while Ceballos finished behind Mkhitaryan, Guendouzi and Lucas Torreira.

    Think it’s anything but self-evident that Xhaka isn’t press resistant tbf.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  15. AbouCuéllar

    AbouCuéllar Well-Known Member

    No, not at all. Here's an article I get from a quick search of Xhaka and press resistant.

    https://www.football.london/arsenal-fc/news/arsenal-granit-xhaka-mikel-arteta-18791917

    I genuinely had not heard of anyone calling Xhaka press resistant or thought there was any argument about him not being so before this thread/discussion.

    I guess the best thing will be to see how this season plays out. Like I say, I am confident Ceballos is the better player, more press resistant, more progressive passer, etc. etc. If this season proves me wrong I will be the first to admit it!
     
  16. Rex Banter

    Rex Banter Got Swerved By Gallas Trusted

    Such a lazy article. “There is no one metric for dealing with high pressure”.

    There’s literally a metric on the site they’re referencing for passing under pressure. In both volume and per 90 over a whole season Granit was a league leader and comfortably ahead of Ceballos.
     
  17. RacingPhoton

    RacingPhoton Well-Known Member

    Now people are claiming that Xhaka is press resistant :lol: Do they even watch matches?
     
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  18. AbouCuéllar

    AbouCuéllar Well-Known Member

    I'm really not sure how much that statistic tells us. If you evade pressure and then make a pass, is it considered a pass under pressure? Because that's part of what we're talking about with press resistance, hence why he talks about take-on % rate (note that press resistant players like Thiago, Thomas, Rodri, Kovacic tend to do well in this regard).

    I really don't know how would be the best way to measure press resistance with statistics but I don't think that statistic you're putting is necessarily telling us what you think it is, and like I said, I think from watching Arsenal it would've been an obvious assertion to say that Ceballos is (far) more press resistant than Xhaka, but yeah, as said above, I think the best thing is to agree to disagree and watch how the season unfolds.

    It is a weird one, I gotta say. I really thought to say that Xhaka is not press resistant is one of the most straightforward and uncontroversial things you could say.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  19. Rex Banter

    Rex Banter Got Swerved By Gallas Trusted

    :lol: :lol:

    It directly says on FBRef that it’s a pass whilst under pressure. You’re trying to muddy the waters when it’s pretty clear to me.

    Also you can’t just say “it’s obvious” to anyone watching Arsenal play, if the numbers then disagree with you. That is by definition not obvious.

    For me it’s pretty clear, if passes under pressure showed Xhaka to be bottom of the league you’d be jumping all over it.

    If you’re gonna dig out other posters for trying to mislead you should probably try and not ignore a stat it took me 5 minutes to find because it doesn’t fit your narrative.
     
    Manberg likes this.
  20. CaseUteinberger

    CaseUteinberger Cazorla (not Carzola ffs)

    It's pure Trumpian gas-lighting at its finest! Let's not believe what our eyes tell us.

    Think we have some Republican operatives in our midst... :eek:
     
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