Granit Xhaka: Return Of The Xhak

AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
Agree with you here.

His reputation alone will make it far easier for the refs when issuing red cards, yellows and accord penalties.

There were so many games when on the very first tackle he gets a yellow, while far harsher challenges by English and the more prominent players are easily dismissed/waved away.
The McCarthy kick on Saka, Kane's brutal challenge on Robertson, Mane's elbow at Tierney, Milner's routine knee-high challenges, Godfrey stamp on Tomi, Gordon's (Everton) two footed tackle on Tavares etc.... these are all only few examples where refs are far more tolerant than in case of Xhaka.

But yes, he has an ugly reputation on him, his stupid acts like last night never help and make it easy for the refs.

But the fault on why he is still here is purely down to Arteta as he convinced him twice to stay here (and probably offered him a better deal).
@MutableEarth rightly mentioned elsewhere that Arteta sees himself in Xhaka as a player. The sort of player that commands respect in dressing room which seems important to Arteta. This is very evident as on the occassions where he was suspended or injured, he came straight back to starting lineup. I bet he will be back in the same way after his suspensions on our home match v.Burnley.


I've said he should have moved in summer and we should've had a better partner for Partey, but we are where we are because of Arteta's decisions. 🤷‍♂️
I think there's some of this but I also think there's a bit of reading too much into things from you all's part on this point.

The first time Arteta convinced Xhaka to stay here he was absolutely correct in doing so; he was in some distance our best midfielder (until Ceballos got fit), and I loathe to think what our midfield would've looked like in those early days if he had not done so.

The second time is a bit more complicated; clearly there was a willingness to sell him, given how engaged in negotiations we were--which seeing him as an essential part of his project, or as an extension of himself, would really be incompatible with--but the offer was a total lowball one, and there didn't seem to be options on the market that represented a genuine upgrade. Arthur, for instance, someone I mentioned in summer, still had two months out left on a long injury after August. With people like we Neves and Guimaraes we know the story, dubious value for money. With hindsight it is honestly hard for me to say what I would've done if I were in charge; in summer I said I would've been aggressive and sold Xhaka despite the lowball offer, but the 12-15m euros that Roma was offering was really ridiculous, and I think I might've overrated Neves and Guimaraes a bit for the novelty factor. In any ways, I find it hard to gripe too much with the decision, business-wise it would've been a rather hard one to defend, and I'm glad we've looked at what for me is a more interesting and low risk, high upside one in Arthur, which tells me, again after our summer business, that we know what we're doing in the market atm.

Regarding Arteta seeing Xhaka as an embodiment of himself, aside from the fact that him being so open to selling him this summer and allowing negotiations for his sale to go on so long being for me, directly incompatible with this idea, I think the evidence on the pitch also speaks for itself. Arteta was a FAR more intelligent player; Arteta's defensive intelligence--especially in knowing how to make intelligent fouls to stop attacks, and tackling intelligently (when have we ever seen Xhaka make the kind of irresponsible tackles Xhaka regularly makes? The tackle Xhaka made against Newcastle, I think it was, when we had the game under control and he easily could've been sent off for, Arteta NEVER, ever would've made)--had nothing to do with Xhaka's, and with the intensity Arteta analyses matches and approaches the sport, it's impossible he is unaware of these details / major distinctive characteristics.

Does Arteta appreciate professionalism, leadership in the dressing room, and experience? Absolutely. His decisions to go for Cedric and Marí at the beginning of his reign, as dressing room type signings, was a clear statement of this. As was the Willian signing, to some extent, bungled as it was.

Does this mean Arteta sees Xhaka as the embodiment of him? No, clearly not, for me, for the reasons I've given above.

Too much tendency to go for easy and more appealing / interesting narratives around here, especially with those who seem to be looking for issues with Arteta, too much, in short narrative fallacy, and not enough attention to detail and willingness to work with the nuances and grey areas of situations. Same thing has happened throughout the Saliba discussion on here, when in reality our decisions to loan him out have been highly logical for a player his age and given the state / demands of the team, is happening when I read about Auba (using Tuchel's comments as a stick to beat Arteta with, when in reality those are the kind of comments that are easy to make 5 years after having worked with a different Auba in terms of quality of player, and when we see in practice that he tows a hard line or even a harder one with other players--not just Lukaku, but incidents at PSG as well), and happens, in short, with pretty much any discussion of Arteta with certain posters.
 

albakos

Arséne Wenger: "I will miss you"
Administrator
Regarding Arteta seeing Xhaka as an embodiment of himself, aside from the fact that him being so open to selling him this summer and allowing negotiations for his sale to go on so long being for me, directly incompatible with this idea, I think the evidence on the pitch also speaks for itself. Arteta was a FAR more intelligent player; Arteta's defensive intelligence--especially in knowing how to make intelligent fouls to stop attacks, and tackling intelligently (when have we ever seen Xhaka make the kind of irresponsible tackles Xhaka regularly makes? The tackle Xhaka made against Newcastle, I think it was, when we had the game under control and he easily could've been sent off for, Arteta NEVER, ever would've made)--had nothing to do with Xhaka's, and with the intensity Arteta analyses matches and approaches the sport, it's impossible he is unaware of these details / major distinctive characteristics.

Does Arteta appreciate professionalism, leadership in the dressing room, and experience? Absolutely. His decisions to go for Cedric and Marí at the beginning of his reign, as dressing room type signings, was a clear statement of this. As was the Willian signing, to some extent, bungled as it was.

Does this mean Arteta sees Xhaka as the embodiment of him? No, clearly not, for me, for the reasons I've given above.
I said it clearly that Arteta seems to see himself on Xhaka as a dressing room leader, not on-the-pitch leader (e.g. an intelligent tackler) as you said. There are clear and valid differences between the two.

We all know his issues on the pitch with many calamities and critical errors like last night, but you cannot excuse Arteta when these things are still happening. This is because there don't seem to be any indications that they worked to address or reduce them.

Hindsight is always a subjective matter in any discussion, but when you consider that we spent 150M last summer, a 15M offer wasn't something that would make us go broke by not having money for incomings. And he was open to leaving, but Arteta convinced him to stay and offered him an improved contract extension.
 

gunner4lyfe

Established Member
As much as we'd like to think otherwise, Jota would have scored that chance as Ramsdale was way off his line. If this was another player, it would have been lauded for "taking one for the team". A player's reputation is everything and even fans and referees play into the stupid narrative that the player is to be blamed for everything they're involved in that may have gone awry in a game. Yes, he made a poor decision AGAIN but we don't join opposing fans in slating our players, it's stupid and really needs to stop. Xhaka is a leader on the pitch and it's the reason a lot of coaches love playing him.
Do you know why people aren't saying he took one for the team? Because he saw Jota and was fvcking jogging back. He looked at him THREE times and still ended up something stupid.
 

dave_rwr

Established Member
Does the team, on average, play better with Xhaka in it than with him out of it? In my opinion, absolutely.
Is he one of the top three leaders in the team? In my opinion, yes.
Does the frequency of his mistakes and costly errors override that? In my opinion, absolutely.

If he had a chance in hell of stamping this out of his game, he would've done it years ago. It'll only continue to get worse as he ages and his legs start to slow.
 

Blankety Blank

Well-Known Member
Ornstein’s just speculating, Arteta has targeted players to replace Xhaka every window. Fairly certain the summer is when it finally happens.
Yeah exactly Arteta & his team mates appreciate his qualities but no way they can trust him.
If Roma had coughed up decent coin last summer I think he would have been allowed to go. They did not.
If you are looking bring in a quality replacement they are not cheap. Its likely 50m+ & we could not really do that in the summer with all the other spending.
Next big moves are CF & another quality CM.
 

Xillin

Xhaka 🔛, Telly 🔨
Does the team, on average, play better with Xhaka in it than with him out of it? In my opinion, absolutely.
Is he one of the top three leaders in the team? In my opinion, yes.
Does the frequency of his mistakes and costly errors override that? In my opinion, absolutely.

If he had a chance in hell of stamping this out of his game, he would've done it years ago. It'll only continue to get worse as he ages and his legs start to slow.
He makes us better cause there simply isn't any better ones in our squad.

Says more about our squad depth than the player. Arteta has a busy summer ahead
 

Pop Tart

Well-Known Member
You can see it ever since he told us to **** off he clearly does not give a ****. He is just going through the motions. Happy to look collect the money. Every thing he does and says is disingenuous. He has had some good games here since that crowd incident but the negatives outweighs the positives. He plays for himself . He is toxic
 

Pop Tart

Well-Known Member
Does the team, on average, play better with Xhaka in it than with him out of it? In my opinion, absolutely.
Is he one of the top three leaders in the team? In my opinion, yes.
Does the frequency of his mistakes and costly errors override that? In my opinion, absolutely.

If he had a chance in hell of stamping this out of his game, he would've done it years ago. It'll only continue to get worse as he ages and his legs start to slow.
Leaders don't grab players by the neck , do thug tackles and get sent off all the time .
 

Batman

Bruce Wayne
Does the team, on average, play better with Xhaka in it than with him out of it? In my opinion, absolutely.
Is he one of the top three leaders in the team? In my opinion, yes.
Does the frequency of his mistakes and costly errors override that? In my opinion, absolutely.

If he had a chance in hell of stamping this out of his game, he would've done it years ago. It'll only continue to get worse as he ages and his legs start to slow.
The team's best run of form by a wide margin this season came with Xhaka out injured. This team dropped out of the CL the year he arrived. He's like a Pharoah's curse.
 

Mrs Bergkamp

Established Member
Trusted ✔️
Oliver gave Evans a yellow card for a blatant red card offence away at Leicester. He took out Auba who was clean through otherwise. Oliver is one of the better refs (not that it means anything) but he’s still inconsistent af.
No doubt about the inconsistency but we have to admit that Xhaka does make it easier for a ref to make a decision. That red he got away with vs Norwich? has been paid back with interest. It could only ever be him sadly.
 

Mrs Bergkamp

Established Member
Trusted ✔️
The team's best run of form by a wide margin this season came with Xhaka out injured. This team dropped out of the CL the year he arrived. He's like a Pharoah's curse.
I wished him injured and got slammed for it but I was sure we'd be able to adjust for the better. And we did. You can't have a player like this in the middle of the park adversely affecting every other player around him.
 

DanDare

Emoji Merchant and Believer-In-Chief
Trusted ✔️
Anyone who expects anything from this *** by now has a severe mental deficiency

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razörist

Soft With The Ladies, Hard With The Mes
I wished him injured and got slammed for it but I was sure we'd be able to adjust for the better. And we did. You can't have a player like this in the middle of the park adversely affecting every other player around him.
I was so happy he was out injured. Lokonga wasn’t playing worldclass but he was playing, he was developing nicely next to Partey, he didn’t play like the last games. Xhaka back, Lokonga dropped like a piece of trash and not looked after again.

Will never forgive Arteta for trusting in Xhaka.
 

dave_rwr

Established Member
Leaders don't grab players by the neck , do thug tackles and get sent off all the time .

Almost every United player from the last generation says Keane was the best leader they played under, and he was a significantly bigger thug than Xhaka. It's not that simple, but I know you know that.
 

Big Poppa

Established Member
Trusted ✔️
No doubt about the inconsistency but we have to admit that Xhaka does make it easier for a ref to make a decision. That red he got away with vs Norwich? has been paid back with interest. It could only ever be him sadly

We’ve learned nothing new about him since he arrived.

From Wenger 5 years ago in January 2017:

on whether he has concerns over Granit’s tackling…More about his technique, I think he’s not naturally a great tackler and in his decision-making I think he is quite intelligent on the pitch. But it’s more the way he tackles that is not really convincing. He doesn’t master well the technique of tackling.

on whether he might bring someone in to help Granit with tackling…I would rather encourage him not to tackle, to stay on his feet and that’s the best way to deal with it. Tackling is a technique that you learn at a young age. You can improve it but when you are face to face with somebody, it’s better you stay up.

 

Mrs Bergkamp

Established Member
Trusted ✔️
We’ve learned nothing new about him since he arrived.

From Wenger 5 years ago in January 2017:

on whether he has concerns over Granit’s tackling…More about his technique, I think he’s not naturally a great tackler and in his decision-making I think he is quite intelligent on the pitch. But it’s more the way he tackles that is not really convincing. He doesn’t master well the technique of tackling.

on whether he might bring someone in to help Granit with tackling…I would rather encourage him not to tackle, to stay on his feet and that’s the best way to deal with it. Tackling is a technique that you learn at a young age. You can improve it but when you are face to face with somebody, it’s better you stay up.

I remember this like yesterday and I still have this gut feeling Xhaka was a Gazidis or Stat DNA purchase. Praying there's only four months left of him here. 🙏
 
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