Granit Xhaka: Time For Xhak To Hit The Road?

What would you do about him?

  • Keep 100%

    Votes: 13 11.3%
  • Try to improve upon him, but keep if we can’t

    Votes: 34 29.6%
  • Get rid

    Votes: 68 59.1%

  • Total voters
    115

Macho

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None of us back then needed an overload of stats to know how great Vieria was, because we were all normal football fans who used our eyes.

Better times.
I'd say these times are way better in some ways. Very good players especially non-white players were much easier to deny back then with bias commentary and etc.

Now assuming stats are being used properly, it is a bit harder to do this. There will always be a blindspot and they clearly aren't everything but they have their place.

Wenger spoke very well on this subject, can't find the quotes now but it was something along the lines of the more subjectivity taken out of professional sports, the better for everyone. I've also seen him downplay stats to defend Özil though, which is also true :lol:
 

AberGooner

Well-Known Member

Happened to watch this video last night. Not meaning to down Xhaka at all with it either.

In the moment you think nothing of it but looking back, **** me how lucky where we to see Vieira in his prime live? Absolute Rolls Royce of a player, not a weakness in his game. If I could have any player back right now from Arsenal in that era I'd still have to go for Vieira.
 

Blood on the Tracks

Well-Known Member
My favourite thing about Vieira (apart from the ****housery) was when he'd win the ball back take a man on and break into a sprint driving into the opponents half. With those long legs he looked both awkward and graceful at the same time.

Stuff like stats don't really matter when it comes to a player like Vieira. I doubt you'd be able to find an Arsenal fan who saw him play regularly that didn't think he was a phenomenal footballer and leader.

Someone like Vieira must shake his head when he sees the likes of Xhaka and Elneny starting for us against major clubs like Man City.
 
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Riou

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Why do so many people think Vieira was a DM though, how did that happen exactly...is it actually just because he is a tall black guy?

Do people think Davids was a DM too?
 

Macho

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Why do so many people think Vieira was a DM though, how did that happen exactly...is it actually just because he is a tall black guy?
lol pretty much

But also, the role has changed since then. Central midfielders were much more rounded compared to now, they we're a bit more defensive minded but could still attack.

Makalele kinda made the sitting defend only midfielder famous (not saying he started it I wouldn't know), before centre mids did it all. Keane, Redknapp etc - they were never amazing going forward or defending but did it all.

Have you ever noticed how many times Partey is referred to as a throw back midfielder by commentary/media?
 

Iceman10

Well-Known Member
My favourite thing about Vieira (apart from the ****housery) was when he'd win the ball back take a man on and break into a sprint driving into the opponents half. With those long legs he looked both awkward and graceful at the same time.

Stuff like stats don't really matter when it comes to a player like Vieira. I doubt you'd be able to find an Arsenal fan who saw him play regularly that didn't think he was a phenomenal footballer and leader.

Someone like Vieira must shake his head when he sees the likes of Xhaka and Elneny starting for us against major clubs like Man City.

His dynamic sprints forward for someone with his frame and everything else to his game were superhuman, even by current day football standards.
 

Blood on the Tracks

Well-Known Member
Why do so many people think Vieira was a DM though, how did that happen exactly...is it actually just because he is a tall black guy?

Do people think Davids was a DM too?

It happened when we signed Partey too. A lot of fans were obsessed with the idea that he was a 'Destroyer' when he's far more than that. It was weird.

I can't see it as being anything other than subconscious racism to be honest.

If you're a black, well built midfielder you could play like Pirlo and you'd still get labelled as a destroyer by a lot of fans. It's a shame really.
 

Riou

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lol pretty much

But also, the role has changed since then. Central midfielders were much more rounded compared to now, they we're a bit more defensive minded but could still attack.

Makalele kinda made the sitting defend only midfielder famous (not saying he started it I wouldn't know), before centre mids did it all. Keane, Redknapp etc - they were never amazing going forward or defending but did it all.

Have you ever noticed how many times Partey is referred to as a throw back midfielder by commentary/media?

Suppose our best ever midfield (Vieria-Petit) was like that too, proper box to box players...with Petit being slightly more defensive and Vieira being slightly more offensive, but both contributing massively in each phase.

God I miss Partey...imagine if Arsenal have managed to break him, another x in the Arteta column for Macho :lol:
 

Red London

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It happened when we signed Partey too. A lot of fans were obsessed with the idea that he was a 'Destroyer' when he's far more than that. It was weird.

I can't see it as being anything other than subconscious racism to be honest.

If you're a black, well built midfielder you could play like Pirlo and you'd still get labelled as a destroyer by a lot of fans. It's a shame really.
I'd say it has been influenced by the media a lot, it has probably slowed down a lot but they used to make quite general remarks about black players calling them physical type words rather than using technical ones. I'm sure there were a lot of weird words about Yaya Toure, but what made him special is him being a beast but also a sensational footballer. There's now doubt that somewhere some old white men commentators have complimented Partey, saying his added physcality is a breathe of fresh air in the Arsenal team :lol: without mentioning the fact he's one of the best ball carriers from midfield in the world, and a great distributor too.
 

Macho

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It happened when we signed Partey too. A lot of fans were obsessed with the idea that he was a 'Destroyer' when he's far more than that. It was weird.

I can't see it as being anything other than subconscious racism to be honest.

If you're a black, well built midfielder you could play like Pirlo and you'd still get labelled as a destroyer by a lot of fans. It's a shame really.
it's stereotyping yeah, I don't know about outright racism. It's more the pundits and media have a blindspot to players outside the league than anything.

I remember when Ndombele came to Sp**s, we all now know he's a number 8/more attacking but I remember sky pundits describing him as a destroyer as well, rather than admitting they had never seen him play :lol:

Admittedly these media outlets are making more of an effort to not do that as much.
 

Red London

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I was proper heartbroken when Sp**s signed him, even though he had nothing to do with Arsenal :lol:

He was such a cool player back then...any football game I had, got to use/sign Edgar!
I miss those days, I felt like there were so many quality players in so many teams. Juve, Madrid, Milan, Inter, Barca, Arsenal, United, Chelsea were absolutely brimming with quality players. I'm not sure what has happened, there are definitely less impressive players around these days.

Davids was so cool as a young boy, I was only like 7 or 8 at his peak years and there was not really this 'lets google and find out the reason why' culture back then. So I thought his goggles were a fashion choice and just thought he was an eccentric baller :lol::lol: he ended up becoming player manager at Barnet which was hilarious, I went to a school there around that time so felt a bit proud that he at least went there. Think it didnt work out though, not really sure.
 
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Macho

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I miss those days, I felt like there were so many quality players in so many teams. Juve, Madrid, Milan, Inter, Barca, Arsenal, United, Chelsea were absolutely brimming with quality players. I'm not sure what has happened, there are definitely less impressive players around these days.
It's the coaching. Players are more efficient and tactically astute - athletic but not as much flair. You see it with our youth products even, the majority are minimalist players with defensive responsibility ingrained into them. I think Neymar is the last of that ilk personally.

When I was young at school my friend hated his glasses but seeing Edgar Davis make it look cool made him feel much better about it :lol:

I always used to think of him when I saw Davis.
 

Blood on the Tracks

Well-Known Member
I'd say it has been influenced by the media a lot, it has probably slowed down a lot but they used to make quite general remarks about black players calling them physical type words rather than using technical ones. I'm sure there were a lot of weird words about Yaya Toure, but what made him special is him being a beast but also a sensational footballer. There's now doubt that somewhere some old white men commentators have complimented Partey, saying his added physcality is a breathe of fresh air in the Arsenal team :lol: without mentioning the fact he's one of the best ball carriers from midfield in the world, and a great distributor too.

Oh yeah, I agree that the media definitely subconsciously push that narrative.

I think at it's root it probably goes deeper than football or sports in general though.

I think subconsciously in western society there's still kind of that colonial attitude and stereotype that hasn't been fully shaken, that black people may have superior physical attributes in certain circumstances but you need a white guy in charge because they have the intelligence.

Maybe I'm looking too deeply into it but I think that sort of subconscious bias / racism may be at least partially why black managers have really struggled generally to get a chance in the game.
 

Red London

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Some of these English pundits really are horrendous they make all kinds of mistakes linked to race or pronouncing foreign names. That BT CL matchweek a couple weeks ago which involved Barca PSG Leipzig Liverpool was just embarassing.

They thought that Upamecano made the mistake for the Liverpool goal when it was actually Mukiele. Meanwhile, on the PSG Barca game which I was watching, Ian Darke and Glen Hoddle were butchering every name in sight; Dracker for Draxler, Poo-eeg for Puig and Mbeppe for Mbappe. Joe Cole went on to call La Masia La Massala in the studio :lol:. I don't understand why these broadcasting companies aren't embarassed about this?? Sometimes I wish that journalists can be on there sometimes, they are better clued up to statistics and player profiles while these English guys like Hoddle, Souness, Murphy, Jenas are geniunely embarassing and unprofessional at times when it comes to foreign players or teams.
 
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Blood on the Tracks

Well-Known Member
it's stereotyping yeah, I don't know about outright racism. It's more the pundits and media have a blindspot to players outside the league than anything.

I remember when Ndombele came to Sp**s, we all now know he's a number 8/more attacking but I remember sky pundits describing him as a destroyer as well, rather than admitting they had never seen him play :lol:

Admittedly these media outlets are making more of an effort to not do that as much.

You're probably right on that front. A lot of it probably comes down to poor research and stereotyping. I don't think any of these guys are outright racists by any means but I do think there's a subconscious racist undercurrent to those stereotypes.

It does seem like this sort of issue is being addressed. I do remember there was some survey done within the last couple of years and it was fairly ridiculous how black players were described by their physical characteristics compared to non white players.
 

Big Poppa

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lol pretty much

But also, the role has changed since then. Central midfielders were much more rounded compared to now, they we're a bit more defensive minded but could still attack.

Makalele kinda made the sitting defend only midfielder famous (not saying he started it I wouldn't know), before centre mids did it all. Keane, Redknapp etc - they were never amazing going forward or defending but did it all.

Have you ever noticed how many times Partey is referred to as a throw back midfielder by commentary/media?

The Premier League was very different from continental Europe at that time. It was all about end to end counter attacking games and most teams played 442, using 2 box to box midfielders so specialist DMs were not really a thing in England (nor deep lying playmakers), which is why players like Veron struggled.

I just think he was the first in his position who had the athleticism to match his technical ability and aggression. Hell of a combo.
 

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