Has it gone too far?

[CurryFlavoured]

The red card rule has caused controversy for quite a while now and I feel its time to start a thread after our own Olivier Giroud was (unfairly IMO) sent off against Fulham and will now serve a 3 game ban.

The specific rule I'm talking about is 'serious foul play'

A player is guilty of serious foul play if he uses excessive
force or brutality against an opponent when challenging
for the ball when it is in play

Any player who lunges at an opponent when
challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or
from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force
and endangering the safety of an opponent, is guilty of
serious foul play.

The rule states that if a player lunges in the excessive force which can cause damage to the opponent, he must get a red card - which I agree competely with.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbQSqjw5Gf4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbQSqjw5Gf4</a> Giroud vs Fulham
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u6ILgSUx-w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u6ILgSUx-w</a> Kompany vs Arsenal
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrgFYnaw9d0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrgFYnaw9d0</a> " vs Utd
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.soccer-blogger.com/2011/10/01/video-jack-rodwell-red-card-vs-liverpool-2011-everton-rodwell-sent-off-suarez-tackle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.soccer-blogger.com/2011/10/0 ... ez-tackle/</a> Rodwell vs Liverpool (skip to 2:45)

Here are 4 examples of tackles that are being red carded more and more often these days, none of which used excessive force or endangered the opponent IMO. The rule states that it must be a lunge with excessive force, 3 of which were lunges with very little force, whereas Girouds was simply a mis-controlling of the ball.

I'm all for player safety, but I feel its gone a bit too far. Personally I feel its a great shame that a player can be sent off while winning the ball cleanly and without using much force or putting his opponent in any danger, but still be sent off for it being a lunge. I'm not asking for us all to play like Stoke, but it seems the tackle is a thing of the past - so has it gone too far?

 

[Wouterus]

I don't think it has gone too far. The problem is that the judgement is so often completely wrong. Both to the hard side and to the soft side. For all those youtube videos you posted, there are as many situations in which a straight red wasn't given that should have been given.

Accidental challenges are often judged as much worse than they actually are, and poor tackles that could have broken a leg are viewed as "being a bit late" and "he's not that type of player". Being young and enthousiastic is another classic excuse.

 

[Gunner_Brody]

How giroud has to serve a 3 game for a total accident where as aguero didnt get charged for his dropkick on david luiz is beyond me.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

I pretty much agree with that, I'm not sure if theres as many poor tackles that don't get punished than there are fair tackles that do get punished though.

My main problem is that the second most referees see a lunge, even though there may be no excessive force or danger for his opponent, they will give or at least contemplate giving a red. In contrast though, if there is a tackle that has extreme force and actually does cause damage to his opponent, but it isn't a lunge, then a red card is given very rarely.

 

[Wouterus]

It should be interesting to examine the average number or red cards per/game in the different leagues. I can't find the exact numbers, but here's an article about the matter:
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-red-card-rate-is-lowest-in-europe--has-the-top-flight-gone-soft-8581056.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 81056.html</a>

It confirms what I already suspected: The Premier League is the league in which (on average) the least red cards are given. I watch the Dutch league every week and if you think the Premier League is getting soft, the Eredivisie (and la liga) must look like futsal to you.

 

[jones]

La Liga is ridiculous, don't have the stats at hand but I'm pretty sure the number of yellow and red cards is the highest in Europe by far.

Agree with Wouterus' first post 100%.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

I expected that La Liga would have far more cautions but I didn't think Holland had become so soft aswell. Look I knew before I posted that the EPL is still probably the most physical of all the top leagues in Europe, but my point stays the same regardless of whats going on in other countries - the referees aren't abiding to the letter of the law and assuming that every time they see a lunging tackle it should be a red, regardless of force or danger.

Plus the article did say that almost 3/4s of the red cards in England were straight red cards, whereas 3 years ago only 40% of the red cards were straight red offences.

 

[mo50]

Both of Kompany's red cards were justified IMO. He lunged in with two feet. I don't care how good a defender he is in terms of judging the ball, it takes one mistimed incident and his 90kg body will snap someone's leg.

Giroud was a bit soft. At first viewing I thought it was a red. I've seen a few different angles and it wasn't really bad. They won't overturn that though.

Rodwell sending off was ridiculous. Incompetent refereeing at it's finest, and that was also during a big derby.

I don't think it's becoming too soft. What needs to be clamped down on is players continually giving away fouls for little nudges and not being booked. Our Arteta is #1 culprit when it comes to tactical fouling but he more often than not deserved to be booked during the first half. Lots of opponents do that to us too.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

Why should his size have anything to do with it? I agree, all it can take is that small bit of excess aggression to break someones leg - but he won the ball cleanly, there was no excessive force, and ultimately there was no danger. If's and but's are all well and good but the fact is : he lunged in and won the ball cleanly without causing any chance of injury, on another day if it was mistimed and more agressive it may have caused injury, but it wasn't.

 

[mo50]

Size has nothing to do with it. Even a smaller footballer can cause damage if the situation is right.

Any player who lunges at an opponent when
challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or
from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force
and endangering the safety of an opponent, is guilty of
serious foul play.

You are not allowed to lunge in the way he did. It's in the rules because such lunges are both unnecessary and have the potential to cause damage. Just because Nani got out of the way and he got the ball through an illegal challenge doesn't mean it was a good tackle.

See, excessive force is relative. To me that challenge was excessive and the ref thought so too. You won't see many challenges where both feet leave the ground happen without a sending off.

 

[dpt49]

How giroud has to serve a 3 game for a total accident where as aguero didnt get charged for his dropkick on david luiz is beyond me.

I've noticed in the last couple of seasons Man City are getting as many decisions go their way as Man U get.

Maybe I'm biased, but we rarely seem to get these kind of decisions go our way and yet Man U and Man City seem to get away with a lot more.

Even in the media a lot of things that Ferguson's players do, get overlooked and anything our players do, like the infamous Eduardo dive, gets blown out of proportion.
Some papers even suggesting he gets kicked out of English football.

Money talks, I suppose.

 

[Dokaka]

How giroud has to serve a 3 game for a total accident where as aguero didnt get charged for his dropkick on david luiz is beyond me.

I've noticed in the last couple of seasons Man City are getting as many decisions go their way as Man U get.

Maybe I'm biased, but we rarely seem to get these kind of decisions go our way and yet Man U and Man City seem to get away with a lot more.

Even in the media a lot of things that Ferguson's players do, get overlooked and anything our players do, like the infamous Eduardo dive, gets blown out of proportion.
Some papers even suggesting he gets kicked out of English football.

Money talks, I suppose.

That's crap. Man City got their fair share of awful calls against them this season.

You watch Arsenal more and thus you feel you get more bad decisions against you. It's easy to feel hard done by when you're cheering the other side of the argument.

 

[evoh_1]

Define a lunge - is that studs up both feet off the ground etc?

Until there is an independent board reviewing tackles post hoc for every game then we will continue to see aguero, balotelli, mcmananman etc get away with terror tackles which at the end of the day is a major issue.

Yes we are annoyed about Giroud missing 3 games for something that didn't in the end endanger the other player, however thos horror tackles that do injure players are often missed and that needs to be sorted out even if the officials got it wrong.

 

[Wouterus]

For starters, 'the ref saw it, so it's done with', needs to be, erm, done away with. Yellows should be able, upon review, become reds, and so on.

Definitely, that is a * rule.

 

[Jury]

If every 'over the ball with studs showing' challenge is given a red card, there wont be many wrong ones issued in the long run. I don't have a problem with some being seemingly more unfair than others. I don't like grey areas, so the less ambiguity in the rule, the better, as far as I'm concerened. However I'm not a fan of the 'excessive force' part, because it doesn't need to be there, and it only serves to give an angle of defence that shouldn't exist.

 

[Dokaka]

If every 'over the ball with studs showing' challenge is given a red card, there wont be many wrong ones issued in the long run. I don't have a problem with some being seemingly more unfair than others. I don't like grey areas, so the less ambiguity in the rule, the better, as far as I'm concerened. However I'm not a fan of the 'excessive force' part, because it doesn't need to be there, and it only serves to give an angle of defence that shouldn't exist.

I'm not too sure about that.

Shawcross challenge on Ramsey back then was neither two-footed or with studs showing. That tackle was the definition of excessive force, Shawcross wouldn't gotten sweet **** out of it if it had been "clean", the ball would've most likely ended up back in Almunia's hands.

Without the excessive force rule, Shawcross' scythe would've been legal. I mean ****, some degenerates still argue that it wasn't even a foul.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

I think you picked that wrong Dokaka, Jury meant that a lunge with excessive force doesn't need to be there, ie. a lunge with or without excessive force should get a red card if it causes danger.

Either way I think the rule is very vague and flawed.

 

[Dokaka]

I don't agree with that either though. A lunge can be made without endangering anyone - most last ditch tackles are made this way.

For me there is an obvious difference between the way Shawcross and De Jong mauled Ramsey and Ben Arfa to the way a lot of last ditch 50/50s are done.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

I don't agree with that either though. A lunge can be made without endangering anyone - most last ditch tackles are made this way.

For me there is an obvious difference between the way Shawcross and De Jong mauled Ramsey and Ben Arfa to the way a lot of last ditch 50/50s are done.

I agree completely, thats pretty much my original point.

 

[mo50]

I don't agree with that either though. A lunge can be made without endangering anyone - most last ditch tackles are made this way.

For me there is an obvious difference between the way Shawcross and De Jong mauled Ramsey and Ben Arfa to the way a lot of last ditch 50/50s are done.

Of course. A few seasons ago, I can't remember exactly when, there was a match at the Emirates in the PL. I think it was Man City before they became rich. One of their players put in a brilliant crunching tackle against Walcott. It was textbook perfect. No studs showing, cleanly got the ball and even though Theo flew into the air and the tackle took the wind out of him, I was in awe at it's brilliance.

That was a brilliant lunging tackle that is allowed. None of this two feet, wreckless stuff Kompany keeps doing.