• ! ! ! IMPORTANT MESSAGE ! ! !

    Discussions about police investigations

    In light of recent developments about a player from Premier League being arrested and until there is an official announcement, ALL users should refrain from discussing or speculating about situations around personal off-pitch matters related to any Arsenal player. This is to protect you and the forum.

    Users who disregard this reminder will be issued warnings and their posts will get deleted from public.

'He is too young', they say, but do we have a choice?

The_Playmaker

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Arsenal having an injury crisis is nothing new. Arsenal not fully supplementing their squad for the new season is also nothing new. However, what also isn't new is Wenger throwing 'kids' in at the deep end and actually getting joy out of it.

Now it is quite well documented that we are lacking first choice well established defenders. On paper Koscielny, Mertesacker, Monreal, Gibbs and Debuchy are established defenders with experience. Beyond that we have Chambers, Bellerin and Hayden. There is a high possibility that Bellerin will get his shot tonight vs Dortmund and the general reaction in the world of media is of worry, 'He lacks experience to handle the atmosphere'. However, a lot has changed over the years in terms of developing young players, leading to the question of, how do we actually develop them?

The gulf in quality between the under 21 league and the Premiership is huge. The difference in style of play between the Championship and the Premiership is also huge. Januzaj dropped down to the under 21's twenty four hours after a sub appearance vs QPR. He scored a hat-trick. Players like Chambers, Gnabry, Ox, Bellerin, Sanogo, Hayden and what appears to be Apkom find it far too easy. So what can we do to continue their development?

We could send them out on loan to another Premiership club in England. However, you have to take into account the likelihood of game time, the difference in style of play and psychological affects on the player. There is also the option of abroad, however, the culture and also difference in style of play is also a factor. Wenger has spoken about the need for Welbeck to adapt to our style of play, therefore wouldn't it be harder to integrate a youngster into the Arsenal way if they spend a year doing something completely different?

Is that why Wenger prefers to keep young players training with the first team? Hayden and Bellerin train with the first team consistently. That means that they are facing the likes of Sanchez, Özil and Welbeck on a daily basis. If they were not holding their own, they wouldn't be part of the first team squad. So maybe throwing them in at the deep end is the best way to go?

People seem to take notice when we are short and are throwing our kids in, but do they realise our kids tend to be of a very high standard? Do they notice European clubs throwing their kids in? How old was Torres when he was leading the line for Atletico? What about Varane? How old is Blackett? What about Stones? Ginter? How old were the Barca players when they got their shot?

What is even more confusing is the main stay of the England 'golden generation' team all got thrown into action at a young age. Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney, Cole and so on. So why does it suddenly become an issue, or even magnified when Arsenal have an injury crisis. If Terry and Cahill got injured, Zouma would be thrown in. Would that be an issue?

I'd like to know what the general opinion is on how to develop young players and especially how else do you find out if someone has the talent to succeed and the mentality under pressure if they do not get a chance. It's that old cliche of how do you gain experience without the chance to obtain it.
 

jerome2158

Established Member
I think part of it is simply the media's love of our many injury crises.

But otherwise, you are right. The jump in level is too much. While I like the idea of keeping them at home playing against our stars, it's never going to give them the same experience that a match would.

I liked what Arsène did with Wilshere. Saw promise in him and knew he'd be called up earlier than most, so he sent Jack off to Bolton for a few years to gain that crucial match experience. And while Wilshere has certainly had his ups and downs, the experience made it easier to just drop him into the starting xi.
 

Dutch D

Well-Known Member & FPL Champion 19/20
Good enough is old enough. Of course a young talent is going to be somewhat inconsistent, make mistakes. So what! The fear of playing a young talent that might make a mistake is absolutely ridiculous in the Premier League. It's why you get everyone shouting for buying a new player when someone picks up a knock and might not play for two months. If there wasn't a 25-squad member limit, rich squads would grow to American Football squad size, it's nuts.

If you look at how Premier League teams treat talents, I think you've identified a massive part of the problem of why the England squad is underperforming. There is little room or patience for talented players to develop. But out of fear of missing out, top teams (internationally) are creating this perpetual cycle of attracting more and more players, at an increasingly young age and then loaning them out by the legions (I'm thinking of Chelsea specifically), ruining talents by the dozens and ruining the market as well.

Sure, I understand that you can't rely on having 3-4 talents in your starting-XI if you're a topteam competing in numerous competitions, but the balance has been long lost. And now, out of (a very real) fear of losing out because the others don't adjust their game, it is very difficult to be the only one changing your ways and rely a bit more on those talented youngsters coming through the academy, playing in the reserves.

Furthermore, I understand that if you have two adequate squad players for one position, it is incredibly valuable for a 19yo to get experience at, say, Bolton. But try to fill in a few gaps with some promising youngsters, or some solid ones that haven't necessarily been known for being a diamond but that can do a job.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm incredibly excited about seeing Bellerin in the starting-XI. And I would be excited to see Campbell get a run of games, with the ups AND downs. That's also entertainment, and we're losing sight of that part of the game.

So, in short: all teams should rely more on their academy, less on bought players.
 

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
Trusted ⭐

Country: Wales
Bellerin was obviously earmarked as our 2nd choice RB when Jenkinson was sent out on loan. Don't have a problem with him playing based on tonight. Sergio Ramos was playing 30+ games a season as a 19 year old for Real Madrid.

The problem is a lack of bodies, I'd have taken pretty much anyone as long as they weren't Cygan, Silvestre or Squillaci as our 4th choice CB and no we have Chambers as our only reserve. Can't believe people were turning their noses up at Alderweireld when he was linked.
 

benjamin86

Established Member
Rex Banner said:
Bellerin was obviously earmarked as our 2nd choice RB when Jenkinson was sent out on loan. Don't have a problem with him playing based on tonight. Sergio Ramos was playing 30+ games a season as a 19 year old for Real Madrid.

The problem is a lack of bodies, I'd have taken pretty much anyone as long as they weren't Cygan, Silvestre or Squillaci as our 4th choice CB and no we have Chambers as our only reserve. Can't believe people were turning their noses up at Alderweireld when he was linked.

I would have like Alderweireld to but he wasn't happy at lack of playing time at A.Madrid don't think he would have come here.

Shame we didn't get Manolas i think he could have worked very well with Chambers and developed into future best CBs partners in league.
 

Toast

Established Member
Rex Banner said:
Bellerin was obviously earmarked as our 2nd choice RB when Jenkinson was sent out on loan. Don't have a problem with him playing based on tonight. Sergio Ramos was playing 30+ games a season as a 19 year old for Real Madrid.

The problem is a lack of bodies, I'd have taken pretty much anyone as long as they weren't Cygan, Silvestre or Squillaci as our 4th choice CB and no we have Chambers as our only reserve. Can't believe people were turning their noses up at Alderweireld when he was linked.

Why do you think that? Chambers is second choice RB and Bellerin isn't even in the squad.
 

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
Trusted ⭐

Country: Wales
Toast said:
Rex Banner said:
Bellerin was obviously earmarked as our 2nd choice RB when Jenkinson was sent out on loan. Don't have a problem with him playing based on tonight. Sergio Ramos was playing 30+ games a season as a 19 year old for Real Madrid.

The problem is a lack of bodies, I'd have taken pretty much anyone as long as they weren't Cygan, Silvestre or Squillaci as our 4th choice CB and no we have Chambers as our only reserve. Can't believe people were turning their noses up at Alderweireld when he was linked.

Why do you think that? Chambers is second choice RB and Bellerin isn't even in the squad.

It was obvious from the first friendly he played that Chambers would be 3rd choice CB, if our only reserve CB was also our 2nd choice RB, I'm pretty sure Wenger was aware that Bellerin would be getting significant game time.
 

Toast

Established Member
Rex Banner said:
Toast said:
Rex Banner said:
Bellerin was obviously earmarked as our 2nd choice RB when Jenkinson was sent out on loan. Don't have a problem with him playing based on tonight. Sergio Ramos was playing 30+ games a season as a 19 year old for Real Madrid.

The problem is a lack of bodies, I'd have taken pretty much anyone as long as they weren't Cygan, Silvestre or Squillaci as our 4th choice CB and no we have Chambers as our only reserve. Can't believe people were turning their noses up at Alderweireld when he was linked.

Why do you think that? Chambers is second choice RB and Bellerin isn't even in the squad.

It was obvious from the first friendly he played that Chambers would be 3rd choice CB, if our only reserve CB was also our 2nd choice RB, I'm pretty sure Wenger was aware that Bellerin would be getting significant game time.


But our 3rd choice CB was set to start over our supposed second choice RB today. Bellerin isn't in the squad. He may get the occasional game at RB, but that doesn't mean it's by design. It just means Wenger majorly ****ed up in the tranfer window.
 

pikey2000

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if last night will have done him any good

on the upside he has just got exposure to top level champions league football at a very young age, suppose that will be "good experience" under his belt

on the downside he got hung out to dry by Wenger deciding to give him the support of having Özil in front of him!

Top level clusterfuck from Wenger there to be honest - I can't fathom out how he thought Özil in front of a Youth team player was ever going to be anything other than a farce??????????
 

bingobob

A-M’s Resident Hunskelper
Trusted ⭐

Country: Scotland
We make it public that it is our policy to rely on youngsters other teams may do it but through necessity rather than choice. Other team's have also been very successful while doing it. Coincidence Barca don't do so well and they splash the cash on Neymar, Suarez etc.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
A lot of our Academy players over the last few years have ended up "nearly, but not quite". A major reason IMO is that we haven't been loaning enough, particularly to clubs within the PL. In some cases that was because we didn't have squad depth (so we kept these players in a bit of limbo at our club for cover) but that excuse will diminish as we are past our post- stadium move transitionary period. Not sure if it is a coincidence that Jack bridged the gap after a loan to Bolton under Owen Coyle (ok, he's not reached his potential since his breakout season but a lot of that is due to injuries).

Some players have been kept betwixt and between Academy/Reserves and first team for too long and hence stagnate. Jenkinson has been sent on loan to West Ham, but arguably one season too late. Bellerin was on loan at Watford in the Championship last season and they utilised him not as a full back but further up the flank, so it was clear his defensive skills had not had chance to be fully rounded yet and the logical would have been to send him on loan to a PL team this season. Loaning out Jenkinson and Bellerin may sound unrealistic but we could have done it with Debuchy, and Chambers able to deputise for RB, as long as we had brought in a CB replacement for Vermaelen who could have also played RB (e.g. Sokratis). That CB/RB is key, depth for our backline is not much different from Chelsea for this season, apart from us not having an equivalent to Ivanovic. Chambers is not our Ivanovic, he is our Zouma.
 

SiMamu

Part time Leeds fan
If Bellerin is going to start at right back, he can't have Özil ever in front of him and he'll need Chambers next to him, not Mertesacker, to cover him defensively, as Per's too slow.
 

Toast

Established Member
Iceman10 said:
That CB/RB is key, depth for our backline is not much different from Chelsea for this season, apart from us not having an equivalent to Ivanovic. Chambers is not our Ivanovic, he is our Zouma.

This is simply not true. I've been over this in the squad analysis thread, but I'll restate it here: Chelsea have much better depth at the back than we do.


All defenders in the squad*:
Arsenal: Kos, Per, Debuchy, Chambers, Gibbs, Monreal.- 6.
Chelsea: Terry, Cahill, Ivanovic, Azpilicueta, Luis, Aké, Christensen, Zouma. - 8.

Chelsea actually have cover for every defensive position. We don't. They have an experienced CB/RB as backup. We don't. In a pinch they can drop Mikel or Matic into CB. We have nobody.

*As defined by Arsenal.com and Chelseafc.com. We even have a bigger squad (28 players) than Chelsea (24).

I do agree that we should be loaning more players out. We're doing very poorly on that front. To stick with the Chelsea comparison, they currently have 26 players on loan compared to our 7. And yes, Chelsea are a bit abnormal, but one has to admit that their loans do pay off one way or another. We need to improve.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
@Toast, note that Chelsea's "eight" includes Aké and Christensen, but I take on board the point about Matic and Mikel able to play as emergency CBs if required. We are actually in agreement anyway when looking at the bit in the quote of mine referring to a direct comparison where we have no man for man equivalent for Ivanovic.
 

Pies

Well-Known Member
SiMamu said:
If Bellerin is going to start at right back, he can't have Özil ever in front of him

I said the same as soon as we kicked off last night....from what I remember we didn't even put Alexis on that side when it was clear they were attacking our right.
 

Toast

Established Member
^^ We're partly in agreement. On the Ivanovic part yes, but I strongly disagree with your assertion that the "depth for our backline is not much different from Chelsea for this season". I don't quite see your point regarding Aké and Christensen. They're young/inexperienced so they don't count? Chelsea's defensive depth is simply much better than ours both in numbers and in quality.

Note also that Chelsea have for more players in their backline capable of covering multiple positions. A quick comparison:

Arsenal
Debuchy - RB
Chambers - RB/CB
Kos - CB
Per - CB
Monreal - LB/CB at a stretch.
Gibbs - LB
Flamini - DM/LB/RB.

Chelsea
Ivanovic - RB/CB
Azpilicueta - LB/RB
Luis - LB
Terry - CB
Cahill - CB
Christensen - CB
Zouma - CB/RB
Aké - CB/LB/DM
Plus Matic/Mikel as emergency CB's.

To compare Chambers and Zouma, as you did: if we get óne injury to one of Kos, Per or Debuchy Chambers starts for us. Zouma, on the other hand, has to wait for an injury to either both Azpilicueta and Ivanovic or Ivanovic and one of the CB's to get a look in (barring rotation). And even then he's not guaranteed to get picked because he has Christensen, Aké and possibly Matic/Mikel to contend with.

So can we please stop saying that our defensive depth isn't that much worse than Chelsea's?
 

Iceman10

Established Member
Toast said:
I don't quite see your point regarding Aké and Christensen. They're young/inexperienced so they don't count?

No appearances for either, what do you know about them? Do you have any knowledge that they are actually better than Hayden for example? If you have knowledge and can explain to me their competence I would be interested. If you don't have info. would be appreciated from anyone else for that matter.

At the same time Bellerin is not being counted for us. I know that is a technicality as per being classified in the first team, but still, that is obviously part of the point.

But please, any more on this keep it short. We're getting into minutiae unnecessarily taking this thread off track. Once again I stress I myself brought up the issue of us having no man for man for Ivanovic (for the purposes of railing against why we couldn't loan *both* Bellerin and Jenkinson out), which should make it very clear that I wasn't trying to deliberately spin something, and if that is what is being suspected I take exception to that.
 

Dokaka

AM's resident Hammer
Christensen is quality. Heart of the defense in one of the most promising generations we've had in quite a while.

He's very similar to John Terry, which makes sense considering he's basically tutored him since he was 16.
 

Toast

Established Member
Iceman10 said:
Toast said:
I don't quite see your point regarding Aké and Christensen. They're young/inexperienced so they don't count?

No appearances for either, what do you know about them? Do you have any knowledge that they are actually better than Hayden for example? If you have knowledge and can explain to me their competence I would be interested. If you don't have info. would be appreciated from anyone else for that matter.

At the same time Bellerin is not being counted for us. I know that is a technicality as per being classified in the first team, but still, that is obviously part of the point.

But please, any more on this keep it short. We're getting into minutiae unnecessarily taking this thread off track. Once again I stress I myself brought up the issue of us having no man for man for Ivanovic (for the purposes of railing against why we couldn't loan *both* Bellerin and Jenkinson out), which should make it very clear that I wasn't trying to deliberately spin something, and if that is what is being suspected I take exception to that.

Fine, I'll keep it short. You asserted that our squad depth at the back is pretty much the same as Chelsea's except we lack an equivalent for Ivanovic. Chambers would therefore be 'our Zouma'. I'll just quote myself again in repsonse.

To compare Chambers and Zouma, as you did: if we get óne injury to one of Kos, Per or Debuchy Chambers starts for us. Zouma, on the other hand, has to wait for an injury to either both Azpilicueta and Ivanovic or Ivanovic and one of the CB's to get a look in (barring rotation). And even then he's not guaranteed to get picked because he has Christensen, Aké and possibly Matic/Mikel to contend with.

Even if you make Christensen/Aké and Bellerin/Hayden cancel eachother out (though there's no reason to do so) Chelsea STILL have far better squad depth at the back than us.

To be clear: I'm not saying you're deliberately trying to spin something. My response was to your statement that our "depth for our backline is not much different from Chelsea for this season, apart from us not having an equivalent to Ivanovic", by which you assert that our depth is one player short of equalling Chelsea's depth. That's bollocks. We were short going into the transfer window and we're ridiculously short now. Chelsea are much better off.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
Fine, I'll take the info. on board (thanks for the info. on Christensen also Dok) and take up at another time on another thread perhaps at a later time. I should stress again though that it has nothing really to do with the meat of my original comment, so I want to return to that in terms of relevancy to this thread:

- We need to be loaning out players more, esp. to other teams in the PL, rather than letting them stagnate in limbo between Academy/Reserves and the First Team (we agree on that). Let them smooth their rough edges and get the majority of their errors out of the way elsewhere as opposed to with us.

- Bellerin should have been loaned out this season to another PL team to build on his loan at Watford last season knowing that there was still work required to hone his defensive acumen (Watford was Championship level and they didn't deploy him as a FB, they played him further up the flank), and:

- If anyone wants to argue that loaning out *both* Jenkinson and Bellerin was not possible, we could have done so if we had an equivalent to Ivanovic (CB/RB) in addition to Debuchy and Chambers. Such a signing was not unrealistic, e.g. Sokratis or similar as a replacement for Vermaelen, a replacement we did not bring in.
 
Top Bottom