Is The Premier League Tougher Than It Used To Be?

Is It?


  • Total voters
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Rex Banter

Got Swerved By Steve Bruce
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You'd struggle to find many sports that are highly financed that were of a higher quality 10-15 years ago as compared to now.
Sure you might get 1 exceptional sports star or team that were better back in the day but not overall.

Tactics, coaching, diet and nutrition etc all have evolved since then, and in an upward trajectory. That's without even factoring in the ridiculous amounts of money on the PL or the pull it has with top class oversees managers.

It's like listening to Geoffrey Boycott talk about fast bowlers bowling faster in the 1970's than they do today 😂 Nah, it's a mix of nostalgia and they fact you weren't wearing a helmet probably made them seen 10mph+ faster than they really were.

Common sense tells you otherwise though.

So basically confirmation that LeBron is clear of Jordan and his era of mechanics and plumbers.

Absolutely love to see it.
 

Blood on the Tracks

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Lol can’t have it both ways.

Even without your own era argument Bron is clear.

Not really, there are freakishly good sportsmen in most sports once every few eras, sometimes a freakishly good team too.

I know next to nothing about basketball but I'd imagine Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls of the 90's were outliers when it came to the general quality of the league at the time.
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Arteta fans could also use Partey's injury as a reason why we are not able to consistently play well. Would you accept that as an excuse?
We were the only team that was had a stable manager on long term. Every other team had signed new managers.
You would trust league position as an acceptable metric until 2015 season. Just when that metric goes down, you will stop accepting that metric, start looking at the "context" and blame fans for the results. But you won't accept context based arguments given by others on the seasons before it.

If you are really a metrics person, stick to that till the end. If you are someone who is open to the idea that context matters along with statistics, be open when someone gives context on earlier seasons. Right now, what you are doing is just "Statistics when I want(until 2015-16 season), context when I don't want(after 2015-16 season)".
Your analogy doesn’t hold water. If Arteta had finished in the top 4 and then 8th, you might look for reasons or excuses as you call them. But he’s been shocking whether players have been fit or not and the metrics show it.

And I’m not interested in context bro, because that just shifts with the wind.
- Then: any manager could get top 4 with Arsenal Now: the top 4 is out of our reach
- Then: **** Wenger winning the calendar year, he bottled the season Now: Arteta was superb from Christmas onwards.
- Then: He lost to Leicester ffs. Now: Clubs like Leicester and Everton are much harder to beat, the league is getting harder
- Then: Injuries are just an excuse ffs. Now: Don’t forget Party and Auba weren’t available when City thrashed us
Context is what people want it to be, metrics don’t lie. Finishing 2nd was a great achievement for a club investing 5th, the rest was spin.
 

Rex Banter

Got Swerved By Steve Bruce
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I know next to nothing about basketball but I'd imagine Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls of the 90's were outliers when it came to the general quality of the league at the time.

Invincibles would clean up in most eras by the same token. I can’t really see many clubs today living with them.
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
You lot know when you get @Makingtrax started on Arsène he won’t stop but you keep provoking him :lol:
I love it. Keep it going, learning comes through repetition. The longer I hammer home the reality of Wenger’s achievements and the longer we’re the butt of everybody’s jokes in the league, the sooner they’ll realise that the Wenger Out campaign was just a self destruct button.:lol:
 

RacingPhoton

❤️ Xhaka ❤️
Your analogy doesn’t hold water. If Arteta had finished in the top 4 and then 8th, you might look for reasons or excuses as you call them. But he’s been shocking whether players have been fit or not and the metrics show it.

And I’m not interested in context bro, because that just shifts with the wind.
- Then: any manager could get top 4 with Arsenal Now: the top 4 is out of our reach
- Then: **** Wenger winning the calendar year, he bottled the season Now: Arteta was superb from Christmas onwards.
- Then: He lost to Leicester ffs. Now: Clubs like Leicester and Everton are much harder to beat, the league is getting harder
- Then: Injuries are just an excuse ffs. Now: Don’t forget Party and Auba weren’t available when City thrashed us
Context is what people want it to be, metrics don’t lie. Finishing 2nd was a great achievement for a club investing 5th, the rest was spin.
I am not supporting Arteta here. Arteta has fared very poorly. Not sure why you have to bring him in comparison every time. My argument from the beginning was that Wenger was losing the plot towards the end of the tenure and it was the right time for him to move on. But we followed them up with even poorer appointments.

On comparing with other clubs, all clubs getting more money will gradually get better season by season. The top 4 teams must stay ahead of the game and take two steps where other clubs take one step if they want to be in top 4. Towards the end of Wenger era and also later, we stopped doing that. We stagnated while teams like Everton and Leicester got stronger. Again, I blame both the regimes for that.

Same with injuries. You either take a stance that injuries are valid excuse or take a stance that injuries are not valid excuse. I chose the latter and say injuries are not valid excuse. So I blame both Wenger and Arteta. You are showing injuries as valid excuse for Wenger but not for Arteta which is hypocritical.
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
I am not supporting Arteta here. Arteta has fared very poorly. Not sure why you have to bring him in comparison every time. My argument from the beginning was that Wenger was losing the plot towards the end of the tenure and it was the right time for him to move on. But we followed them up with even poorer appointments.

On comparing with other clubs, all clubs getting more money will gradually get better season by season. The top 4 teams must stay ahead of the game and take two steps where other clubs take one step if they want to be in top 4. Towards the end of Wenger era and also later, we stopped doing that. We stagnated while teams like Everton and Leicester got stronger. Again, I blame both the regimes for that.

Same with injuries. You either take a stance that injuries are valid excuse or take a stance that injuries are not valid excuse. I chose the latter and say injuries are not valid excuse. So I blame both Wenger and Arteta. You are showing injuries as valid excuse for Wenger but not for Arteta which is hypocritical.
Your just showing bias, that’s why context shifts with the wind. Klopp had a superb season the year below last, but last season the VVD injury in particular and others, clearly had a big effect.

It’s no surprise that Leicester winning the league had the lowest injury record. If Kante had had Cazorla’s injury and Cazorla had played on, the odds of us winning the league would have increased hugely.

You can say injuries shouldn’t affect performance, but that’s simply not true . . just words.

And one last thing, no club gets better season by season. All clubs go in cycles, history shows us that. What was unique about Arsène was his utter consistency at the club’s ceiling for so long. That is not stagnation. Just more made up words to spin your context.
 

Blood on the Tracks

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Thing about Jordan is when ragging on Wenger and the easier PL he’s also someone who benefitted from a weaker NBA.

Played in the league decades before it became a global game thanks to the Euro stars of the 2000s.

Basically no salary cap back then so the Bulls were allowed to pay whatever their free agents wanted and teams could get away with giving Scottie Pippen a seven year deal for nothing.

Either Jordan and Wenger are elite or both got away with laxer time periods. Not one rule for one and one for the other.

Problem is some people, not yourself, are viewing others saying the PL is at higher standard generally today as some kind of an attack on Wenger's legacy or his achievements and it's clearly not.

Sportsmen and managers only exist in their own era. The fact that advancements in virtually everything related to high revenue professional sports occur over time isn't a knock on them or what they achieved in their era. Pep and Klopp will get past by at some point and it won't diminish any of their achievements either.

If we're looking at Wenger he was the catalyst for a number of these advancements. scouting, nutrition and sports science were definitely areas that Wenger moved the needle on in English football and benefited our game beyond just Arsenal. Others have advanced these further, that's natural.

If it makes some of the more sensitive Wenger guys happy, he is one of the guys that helped lay some of the foundations for where the PL is today quality wise.
 

RacingPhoton

❤️ Xhaka ❤️
Your just showing bias, that’s why context shifts with the wind. Klopp had a superb season the year below last, but last season the VVD injury in particular and others, clearly had a big effect.

It’s no surprise that Leicester winning the league had the lowest injury record. If Kante had had Cazorla’s injury and Cazorla had played on, the odds of us winning the league would have increased hugely.

You can say injuries shouldn’t affect performance, but that’s simply not true . . just words.

And one last thing, no club gets better season by season. All clubs go in cycles, history shows us that. What was unique about Arsène was his utter consistency at the club’s ceiling for so long. That is not stagnation. Just more made up words to spin your context.
In my view, injuries happen. You either be prepared for it or at least react well to it. Klopp suffered from VVD blow. Most of football fans complained about him burning out players by playing them full 90 minutes in all the games. It was only a matter of time before it happened. He needed to have good rotation options. Klopp is still a good manager. That was one mistake he made. I am glad to criticise him for that even though I like him.

You are the one who is biased here. You are accepting injuries as a valid excuse for Wenger and other managers but you won't accept it for Arteta. But I am measuring every manager with the same scale. How is my view biased?

Every club gets better season by season if you look at absolute ability. It includes better scouting, better coaching foundations, methods and facilities, more money, making sure to get more young players with high ceiling to compete with other teams who are also improving. The cycle you are talking about is relative performance. If you do not make a single signing other than a Chelsea goalkeeper looking for retirement contract, you are stagnating there while other clubs are taking a step forward.
 

Oxeki

New Threads, Old Tweets
You are the one who is biased here. You are accepting injuries as a valid excuse for Wenger and other managers but you won't accept it for Arteta. But I am measuring every manager with the same scale. How is my view biased?
Tbf we've looked shít even when Arteta had a fully fit squad.
 

Blankety Blank

Well-Known Member
In my view, injuries happen. You either be prepared for it or at least react well to it. Klopp suffered from VVD blow.

Fair point but the only clubs who can really deal with injuries to key players are Chelsea & Man C.

Our squad quality/depth is miles behind them & still a long way behind Man U & Liverpool imho.

Look at last season, Auba, Partey ,Gabriel & Tierney ( All Key Players) had to deal with various injury/fitness/health issues.

3 of those 4 have already had issues this season ffs
We start the Brentford game with Auba, Partey, & Gabriel, (Spine) get a result and are in a far better place going forward for the Chelsea game.

If we keep those players fit & performing at a good level we improve from last season.
 

RacingPhoton

❤️ Xhaka ❤️
Fair point but the only clubs who can really deal with injuries to key players are Chelsea & Man C.

Our squad quality/depth is miles behind them & still a long way behind Man U & Liverpool imho.

Look at last season, Auba, Partey ,Gabriel & Tierney ( All Key Players) had to deal with various injury/fitness/health issues.

3 of those 4 have already had issues this season ffs
We start the Brentford game with Auba, Partey, & Gabriel, (Spine) get a result and are in a far better place going forward for the Chelsea game.

If we keep those players fit & performing at a good level we improve from last season.
There is a luck factor with injuries. But we can still criticise certain decisions. Klopp was running players to ground unnecessarily. Cazorla was injured for a long time. Still we never cared about replenishing our already depleted CM area. Should I even talk about Arteta pushing Partey into the pitch after getting injured and paying for it big time later?
 

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