Joe Willock (Out)

AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
@Football Manager you've highlighted a way of using Willock in a double pivot and its flaws. But we very rarely play that system and certainly wouldn't play Willock in that role against strong opposition.

His best use (and what we should have done with Ramsey & Wilshere) is as an attacking 8 in a 3 man midfield. A lot of us suspect that a 433 is Arteta's long term dream, but I guess the reality is a hybrid of 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1. In either event there is scope for someone with Willock's athleticism, ball carrying ability and goalscoring potential to be a contributor, but He does need to either get technically cleaner and defensively better (or both) to have any real chance of locking down a starting berth. At his current age, significant technical improvement is unlikely, but a more defined role would do his tactical intelligence the world of good.

The key thing to note is that Willock at Newcastle developed into a better, more assertive and cleverer player than we'd seen in his Arsenal cameos. He increasingly looked like someone who had worked out when to do things - ie reading the play. His athletic profile make him the kind of prospect you think long and hard before parting with, because while not quite at Ramsey's technical level (and certainly not at that of WIlshere or the aforementioned genius Cazorla), he can cover ground more effectively than all 3 combined, and is an exceptionally strong runner with the ball. He's also bigger and better in the air than all 3.

Of course a midfield composed solely of players like Willock is a chaotic version of Ardiles football, and can't work at a big club, but as a part of a squad, he could be very useful, particularly as his assets differ so much to the others at our disposal.

The point you tend to miss, being a purist, is that the best squads are a blend. Ray Parlour technically was miles behind most of the midfielders we've had in the last decade, but his stamina, determination, commitment and his providing different attributes to his peers made him a key squad member in the best Arsenal team in Living memory, with a trophy haul far more skilled players could only dream of. Not saying WIllock will ever have that impact, but then no-one would have predicted Parlour's career at the same age.

In a squad where no midfielders ever score and only 2 can run, and only 1 can beat a man, a young home-grown player who can do all 3 is worth persevering with. If AMN carried the same goal threat, we'd be looking at 40m offers rather than 15m ones.

Don't really disagree with anything here but the thing this post misses is that Willock as a squad player is just a poor use of value. Instead of a valuable £25-30m in the bank to spend on much more needed reinforcements to a squad desperately in need of reinforcements, we keep him around and watch yet another asset depreciate, just like AMN last season, who you assured me wouldn't lose value (and does anyone really think we'll get £20m for him now? I'd be happy with £10m).

No one likes seeing academy products sold (can honestly say the day I read Gnabry was going to be sold was probably the most discouraging day for me as an Arsenal fan in recent history, bar the day of the Em*ry hire), but you have to be realistic and know with which academy products it's time to cash in and get value. Willock, as someone that's extremely unlikely to be an important factor for a Champions League club in England in his future, is one of those cases, just as AMN was last summer.
 
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14Henry

Well-Known Member
People are talking like Willock is 28 and this is the best level he can achieve. What was KDB doing at 21? Mahrez? Kante? Etc.

I'm not saying he's going to be that level but players develop later after all he's barely out of nappies.

Sell Elneny. Sell AMN. Sell Eddie. Sell Laca. Sell Bellerin. Sell Soares. Get rid of your older players first. Not a 21 year old who's coming of the best 6 months of his career. That's the easy thing to do. Let's see how good this regime is shifting the dirt without having to pay them off. Because that requires no skill nor deserves credit.

We sold Emi to buy Runnarson and a load of loans. What's to say we don't sell Willock and fritter the money away on some 29 year old looking 200k a week. Someone who couldn't give a **** about the club.

We have signed about 7-8 players under Arteta. None of them have excelled Gabriel probably the best. Wouldn't trust them to spend the 30m they would get effectively.
 

kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
People are talking like Willock is 28 and this is the best level he can achieve. What was KDB doing at 21? Mahrez? Kante? Etc.

I'm not saying he's going to be that level but players develop later after all he's barely out of nappies.

Sell Elneny. Sell AMN. Sell Eddie. Sell Laca. Sell Bellerin. Sell Soares. Get rid of your older players first. Not a 21 year old who's coming of the best 6 months of his career. That's the easy thing to do. Let's see how good this regime is shifting the dirt without having to pay them off. Because that requires no skill nor deserves credit.

We sold Emi to buy Runnarson and a load of loans. What's to say we don't sell Willock and fritter the money away on some 29 year old looking 200k a week. Someone who couldn't give a **** about the club.

We have signed about 7-8 players under Arteta. None of them have excelled Gabriel probably the best. Wouldn't trust them to spend the 30m they would get effectively.
yeah.... its like a 21 yr old who scores a lot cant be creative....and he runs powerfully so he cant defend...and he bursts into the box so he cant understand tactics and positioning. Some armchair pundits really forget that there is a reason that guy is on the pitch, and not them. Its called TALENT
 

AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
People are talking like Willock is 28 and this is the best level he can achieve. What was KDB doing at 21? Mahrez? Kante? Etc.
KDB was killing it for Bremen at 21. Kanté is a freak ball winner that's unlike pretty much any starter in a top team at the moment, who was still scouted and discovered. Mahrez came from a Ligue 2 side, turning down offers from PSG and Marseille's academies, and was still picked out by Leicester at age 22. I remember watching him his first year in the premier against us and thinking, "wow, this guy is talented"--game at the Emirates where we won but Mahrez caused us lots of problems.

Players generally follow more or less linear career arks. There are exceptions, but 99% of top players are doing the business for their country's U21 sides, and often U19 sides before it (lower age you get the less correlation to later success you get, naturally).

What players don't do, except in the rarest of cases (can't think of one, tbh, but I'm sure there is, there are always special cases in anything in life) is all of a sudden show a skillset / qualities they don't even show a wink of at age 21, especially if they've already been under the management of a high level club (perhaps this might happen for someone who is ignored and is playing in lesser leagues, under less developed development methods) for a long period of time (Willock has been in our first-team set-up for over 4 years now). That is, a player who is averaging 16.2 passes per game in his age 21 season, with very little to no creative ability or ability to carry out many of the typical functions of midfield play, there is a less than 1% chance of him being above average or excelling in those categories at any point in his career. Simply put, he can't just develop technical qualities and a personality that he simply doesn't have later in his career, by art of magic.
 

The_Playmaker

Established Member
Trusted ✔️
Quite a lot of debate about Willock. I wonder if those who advocate his sale would be pro signing Gravenberch of Bellingham. They have a very similar skillset and also thrive as an 8 in a 3 man midfield. Put Gravenberch or Bellingham at a 10 and you would probably see the same limitations as Willock.

I cant really see why we should sell him. If Arteta wants to play a 3 man midfield then I don't see why Willock cant play in the rcm as he offers a skill set that is difficult to find in terms of being Premier League proven. The key is balancing it out with the right personnel. You need a higher touch left sided 8 and a good player at the base. We have the base player. We probably have the 8 in Saka.

ESR--------------new CF-----------Pepe

-------Saka--------------------Willock
---------------------Partey

If we were to buy a Cf who could link play and have the ball really stick. You would have 4 out of 6 players as high touch ball retention players and another two based on getting into the box.


There is a lot of stuff there.
Aerial duels
Ground duels
Ball recovery
Combative tackles
Strength in 50 50s vs very strong players
Incisive passing between the full back
Receiving on the half turn
Excellent ball carrying
Good tight space technique
Recovery
Confidence
Finishing
Attacking the box

Being able to do all of the above is not easy. It just isn't as easy on the eye. It looks less elegant, it can be chaotic, but it is very effective. These 7 goals are no joke. He should have scored more.
 

Gn1212

Well-Known Member
Sell the dross first, get support from the owners, if that's not enough to buy you what you want(which I very much doubt), then consider selling Willock.

Yes, we need to trim down our squad but you always need depth.
Willock being our 3rd/4th choice #8 will get him enough minutes to make an impact. You've got a PL ready 21 year old midfielder who can score goals. Use him.
 

AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
Quite a lot of debate about Willock. I wonder if those who advocate his sale would be pro signing Gravenberch of Bellingham. They have a very similar skillset and also thrive as an 8 in a 3 man midfield. Put Gravenberch or Bellingham at a 10 and you would probably see the same limitations as Willock.
Apples and oranges. Gravenberch and Bellingham are far more technically gifted players and far more natural midfielders than Willock.

Gravenberch averaged 68.4 passes per game this season, FFS. Bellingham averaged 35.2 for Borussia Dortmund at age 17.

Gravenberch and Bellingham both have far less limitations than Willock and that is basically the long and short of it. Both have enough talent to play in a pivot, and in Gravenberch's case, to be an effective operator in the half spaces as an advanced 8 in a possession system. There was some discussion that Gravenberch should even be more of a 10, last season, I haven't watched enough of Ajax to know how that's come along but he's a major, well-rounded, technically accomplished talent.
 
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Ceballinhos

Cheating on Santi
KDB was killing it for Bremen at 21. Kanté is a freak ball winner that's unlike pretty much any starter in a top team at the moment, who was still scouted and discovered. Mahrez came from a Ligue 2 side, turning down offers from PSG and Marseille's academies, and was still picked out by Leicester at age 22. I remember watching him his first year in the premier against us and thinking, "wow, this guy is talented"--game at the Emirates where we won but Mahrez caused us lots of problems.

Players generally follow more or less linear career arks. There are exceptions, but 99% of top players are doing the business for their country's U21 sides, and often U19 sides before it (lower age you get the less correlation to later success you get, naturally).

What players don't do, except in the rarest of cases (can't think of one, tbh, but I'm sure there is, there are always special cases in anything in life) is all of a sudden show a skillset / qualities they don't even show a wink of at age 21, especially if they've already been under the management of a high level club (perhaps this might happen for someone who is ignored and is playing in lesser leagues, under less developed development methods) for a long period of time (Willock has been in our first-team set-up for over 4 years now). That is, a player who is averaging 16.2 passes per game in his age 21 season, with very little to no creative ability or ability to carry out many of the typical functions of midfield play, there is a less than 1% chance of him being above average or excelling in those categories at any point in his career. Simply put, he can't just develop technical qualities and a personality that he simply doesn't have later in his career, by art of magic.

I agree with you.
We had Willock for 4 years and we already know his skillset, which doesn't translate so well into what we're trying to achieve.
At newcastle he didn't develop any magic trick or skillset. It's just a player who's in the perfect set up for him and who's been full of confidence.

Willock is just the kind of player who's perfectly fitted for a midtable club, whose skillset do not translate well at a higher level.

Just sell him at his peak value. Don't be stupid to blow it, realize he's not made for what we're trying to do, bench him most of the season and see his value drop a lot.

I remember back then some fans were mad we sold the Ox to liverpool, because they were believing that under Klopp he was somehow gonna develop his skillset and his football IQ so much that he would become a very good player. Well not so much, it's still the same player who has some strides here and there.
 

The_Playmaker

Established Member
Trusted ✔️
KDB was killing it for Bremen at 21. Kanté is a freak ball winner that's unlike pretty much any starter in a top team at the moment, who was still scouted and discovered. Mahrez came from a Ligue 2 side, turning down offers from PSG and Marseille's academies, and was still picked out by Leicester at age 22. I remember watching him his first year in the premier against us and thinking, "wow, this guy is talented"--game at the Emirates where we won but Mahrez caused us lots of problems.

Players generally follow more or less linear career arks. There are exceptions, but 99% of top players are doing the business for their country's U21 sides, and often U19 sides before it (lower age you get the less correlation to later success you get, naturally).

What players don't do, except in the rarest of cases (can't think of one, tbh, but I'm sure there is, there are always special cases in anything in life) is all of a sudden show a skillset / qualities they don't even show a wink of at age 21, especially if they've already been under the management of a high level club (perhaps this might happen for someone who is ignored and is playing in lesser leagues, under less developed development methods) for a long period of time (Willock has been in our first-team set-up for over 4 years now). That is, a player who is averaging 16.2 passes per game in his age 21 season, with very little to no creative ability or ability to carry out many of the typical functions of midfield play, there is a less than 1% chance of him being above average or excelling in those categories at any point in his career. Simply put, he can't just develop technical qualities and a personality that he simply doesn't have later in his career, by art of magic.
Elneny averages 59 passes per game. He creates basically nothing. Willock attempted an average of 30 passes a game this season. He has superior Xa, assists, key passes and passes into the box. That's playing for Newcastle.

Creativity is not based on the amount of passes you make.
 

AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
Elneny averages 59 passes per game. He creates basically nothing. Willock attempted an average of 30 passes a game this season. He has superior Xa, assists, key passes and passes into the box. That's playing for Newcastle.

I guess you are using FBRef, I see they have very different numbers than whoscored gave me:

FBRef has Willock at 16.5/21.5 for Newcastle (31.5/38.7 for Arsenal), and Bellingham at 47/56.5.


Of course he has better stats in those categories than Elneny, lol. No one is debating whether Willock is better than Elneny (aside from the fact you're discussing two vastly different roles). But we are not getting £30m for Elneny, nor can Willock actually play in his position. Actually, your citing of Elneny's passes /90 versus Willock's perfectly demonstrates my point:

One basic statistic I like to look at for how apt one is to play in a pivot or a passing system is their number of passes attempted per game. This tells you a lot about how willing they are to receive the ball, their personality in regards to going to get the ball and offering to receive, and how much their manager is (potentially) hiding them in possession.
 

Riou

Gatekeeper Of Mediocrity
I think the best football I ever saw Arsenal play, was in 2004/2005, tbh...least the first few months of it, it's the only time I genuinely felt we were the biggest/best team in the world.

Up until the United screwjob, we were awe inspiring, every game felt like the best game ever...we were still pretty great for the rest of that season too...the level of football and the speed we played it, insane...what a group of players we had that year.

Also...can't be dealing with fans, that don't rate Ramsey's contribution to the club.

Finally, hope Joe stays...to keep this post somewhat on topic!
 
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The_Playmaker

Established Member
Trusted ✔️
I guess you are using FBRef, I see they have very different numbers than whoscored gave me:

FBRef has Willock at 16.5/21.5 for Newcastle (31.5/38.7 for Arsenal), and Bellingham at 47/56.5.


Of course he has better stats in those categories than Elneny, lol. No one is debating whether Willock is better than Elneny (aside from the fact you're discussing two vastly different roles). But we are not getting £30m for Elneny, nor can Willock actually play in his position. Actually, your citing of Elneny's passes /90 versus Willock's perfectly demonstrates my point:
What do you mean by the manager hiding them possession?
 

Sebastes

Statbomb Merchant
Trusted ✔️
Quite a lot of debate about Willock. I wonder if those who advocate his sale would be pro signing Gravenberch of Bellingham. They have a very similar skillset and also thrive as an 8 in a 3 man midfield. Put Gravenberch or Bellingham at a 10 and you would probably see the same limitations as Willock.

I cant really see why we should sell him. If Arteta wants to play a 3 man midfield then I don't see why Willock cant play in the rcm as he offers a skill set that is difficult to find in terms of being Premier League proven. The key is balancing it out with the right personnel. You need a higher touch left sided 8 and a good player at the base. We have the base player. We probably have the 8 in Saka.

ESR--------------new CF-----------Pepe

-------Saka--------------------Willock
---------------------Partey

If we were to buy a Cf who could link play and have the ball really stick. You would have 4 out of 6 players as high touch ball retention players and another two based on getting into the box.


There is a lot of stuff there.
Aerial duels
Ground duels
Ball recovery
Combative tackles
Strength in 50 50s vs very strong players
Incisive passing between the full back
Receiving on the half turn
Excellent ball carrying
Good tight space technique
Recovery
Confidence
Finishing
Attacking the box

Being able to do all of the above is not easy. It just isn't as easy on the eye. It looks less elegant, it can be chaotic, but it is very effective. These 7 goals are no joke. He should have scored more.
I agree there's a lot of good stuff in the comp. But it's just that - a comp. Here, for example you have Willock's passing and possession/carrying stats, which shows a different truth than the showreel you posted.


1623272997464.png1623273067535.png
There are some really nice things in here ofc, esp carries into penalty area, touches in penalty and progressive passes received shows he thrives in that area. However he also have generally quite poor passing stats (even for someone who's not mainly a passer) and he loses the ball a lot, being in the worst 6 percent of midfielders for miscontrols and also being in the 93rd percentile for amount of attempted dribbles but only in the 35th percentile for successful dribble % indicates he fails a high amount of dribbles, which is also indicated through him being in the worst 4% when it comes to being dispossessed. Should be said he scores very well in how many successful dribbles he has, but question is if it's worth when loses the ball so much. He also have very bad passes received % which means he fails to reach/control the ball when being the receiver.

Willock also scores very poorly for amount of times dribbled past, dribblers tackled % and successful pressures % (successful pressure = team gains possession within 5 seconds of the player pressuring opponent). He makes up for that with energy tbf to him and really puts in a shift. He is a good tackler as well.

He excels in goal and shot creation as well as shooting overall. Has very good xG. However he's outperformed his xG massively in his games which would indicate luck/purple patch and I think it's fair to counter you statement of him should have been scoring more as plain false based on stats. He should have scored less.

These stats are for the whole PL season so includes Arsenal, but in general he has worse stats during his spell with Newcastle, which again would indicate a purple patch.

I still think there's a player in there and one that could be very useful if you play to his strengths, but he needs more time and I'd opt for loaning him out a full year more. If we get 25m or more it'd be hard to turn though imo.
 

14Henry

Well-Known Member
KDB was killing it for Bremen at 21. Kanté is a freak ball winner that's unlike pretty much any starter in a top team at the moment, who was still scouted and discovered. Mahrez came from a Ligue 2 side, turning down offers from PSG and Marseille's academies, and was still picked out by Leicester at age 22. I remember watching him his first year in the premier against us and thinking, "wow, this guy is talented"--game at the Emirates where we won but Mahrez caused us lots of problems.

Players generally follow more or less linear career arks. There are exceptions, but 99% of top players are doing the business for their country's U21 sides, and often U19 sides before it (lower age you get the less correlation to later success you get, naturally).

What players don't do, except in the rarest of cases (can't think of one, tbh, but I'm sure there is, there are always special cases in anything in life) is all of a sudden show a skillset / qualities they don't even show a wink of at age 21, especially if they've already been under the management of a high level club (perhaps this might happen for someone who is ignored and is playing in lesser leagues, under less developed development methods) for a long period of time (Willock has been in our first-team set-up for over 4 years now). That is, a player who is averaging 16.2 passes per game in his age 21 season, with very little to no creative ability or ability to carry out many of the typical functions of midfield play, there is a less than 1% chance of him being above average or excelling in those categories at any point in his career. Simply put, he can't just develop technical qualities and a personality that he simply doesn't have later in his career, by art of magic.
But what qualities does he need to be a decent football player for Arsenal. You seem to think he has to have this ultra specific skillset to play for Arsenal.

He doesn't. He just has to be better than other players. Which he could be with coaching.

Just because Mikel wants to play 4 3 3 with a million sideways passes to score a goal doesn't mean a lung busting attacking midfielder who can make late runs into the box and carry the ball forward isn't needed from time to time.

How do we escape when we play a team who is better than us. We hoof the ball to auba who loses it or hoof it to laca to try and hold it up.

How many times have we seen Xhaka, Partey, Elneny, Ceballos, Ødegaard even Saka take the ball on say the edge of the box after a corner and carry it 20-30 yards maybe drawing a foul or even losing possession but getting up the field.

I think you've been thinking that Arteta has one way to play.....that that is the only way football can be played and that's how it is.

I will repeat. A good coach can utilise the strengths of a player while developing others to add something to the team.

There's a hundreds of examples of players adapting their game and developing skill sets that maybe weren't natural to them.

There's not only one way to play football and having a player who is different from the rest makes it unpredictable and sometimes in football the unpredictable wins you the match.

Willock is never going to be a Phil Foden. Maybe not even a Grealish. But when you're as **** was we are and have players stinking the place out on big wages who are doing absolutely 0, having someone who cares about the club and has another 2-3 years to develop is something worth at least having a good look at.
 

Rasmi

Well-Known Member
But what qualities does he need to be a decent football player for Arsenal. You seem to think he has to have this ultra specific skillset to play for Arsenal.

He doesn't. He just has to be better than other players. Which he could be with coaching.

Just because Mikel wants to play 4 3 3 with a million sideways passes to score a goal doesn't mean a lung busting attacking midfielder who can make late runs into the box and carry the ball forward isn't needed from time to time.

How do we escape when we play a team who is better than us. We hoof the ball to auba who loses it or hoof it to laca to try and hold it up.

How many times have we seen Xhaka, Partey, Elneny, Ceballos, Ødegaard even Saka take the ball on say the edge of the box after a corner and carry it 20-30 yards maybe drawing a foul or even losing possession but getting up the field.

I think you've been thinking that Arteta has one way to play.....that that is the only way football can be played and that's how it is.

I will repeat. A good coach can utilise the strengths of a player while developing others to add something to the team.

There's a hundreds of examples of players adapting their game and developing skill sets that maybe weren't natural to them.

There's not only one way to play football and having a player who is different from the rest makes it unpredictable and sometimes in football the unpredictable wins you the match.

Willock is never going to be a Phil Foden. Maybe not even a Grealish. But when you're as **** was we are and have players stinking the place out on big wages who are doing absolutely 0, having someone who cares about the club and has another 2-3 years to develop is something worth at least having a good look at.
But he wasnt last season hence why until January he could barely get any game time and was loaned out. His stock is high now and if we dont sell I just dont see him getting much game time next season with no Eruopa either. We will just crash his value and sell him next season for half of what we can get now
 

14Henry

Well-Known Member
But he wasnt last season hence why until January he could barely get any game time and was loaned out. His stock is high now and if we dont sell I just dont see him getting much game time next season with no Eruopa either. We will just crash his value and sell him next season for half of what we can get now
We pissed away Emis money on Willian and Soares dealings and big contracts.

No harm selling Willock and pissing away that 30m on a few other easy targets for Mikel and Edu.

My idea of football is clearly wrong. My idea would be get rid of the players who you know offer you nothing. Willian, Elneny, Eddie, AMN, Soares, Kolasinac. Laca offers something but needs moved on with a year left. Once that's done if you still need money sell Willock. But to sell potential and hang onto absolute ****e isn't how I would want my club to run.
 

Rasmi

Well-Known Member
We pissed away Emis money on Willian and Soares dealings and big contracts.

No harm selling Willock and pissing away that 30m on a few other easy targets for Mikel and Edu.

My idea of football is clearly wrong. My idea would be get rid of the players who you know offer you nothing. Willian, Elneny, Eddie, AMN, Soares, Kolasinac. Laca offers something but needs moved on with a year left. Once that's done if you still need money sell Willock. But to sell potential and hang onto absolute ****e isn't how I would want my club to run.
get rid you mean loan them out or cancel their contracts? These players are on huge wages and have very little value. So we need to bring in money as well. 25 million for Willock who wont be a starter isnt bad idea. Arteta dont rate him and with less games next season he will get less minutes. Cedric, Kola and El neny either gets loan or cancelled contracts. Business wise el neny staying being extra body makes more sense than rejecting money for willock and give him el nenys minutes
 

AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
I agree there's a lot of good stuff in the comp. But it's just that - a comp. Here, for example you have Willock's passing and possession/carrying stats, which shows a different truth than the showreel you posted.


View attachment 3229View attachment 3230
There are some really nice things in here ofc, esp carries into penalty area, touches in penalty and progressive passes received shows he thrives in that area. However he also have generally quite poor passing stats (even for someone who's not mainly a passer) and he loses the ball a lot, being in the worst 6 percent of midfielders for miscontrols and also being in the 93rd percentile for amount of attempted dribbles but only in the 35th percentile for successful dribble % indicates he fails a high amount of dribbles, which is also indicated through him being in the worst 4% when it comes to being dispossessed. Should be said he scores very well in how many successful dribbles he has, but question is if it's worth when loses the ball so much. He also have very bad passes received % which means he fails to reach/control the ball when being the receiver.

Willock also scores very poorly for amount of times dribbled past, dribblers tackled % and successful pressures % (successful pressure = team gains possession within 5 seconds of the player pressuring opponent). He makes up for that with energy tbf to him and really puts in a shift. He is a good tackler as well.

He excels in goal and shot creation as well as shooting overall. Has very good xG. However he's outperformed his xG massively in his games which would indicate luck/purple patch and I think it's fair to counter you statement of him should have been scoring more as plain false based on stats. He should have scored less.

These stats are for the whole PL season so includes Arsenal, but in general he has worse stats during his spell with Newcastle, which again would indicate a purple patch.

I still think there's a player in there and one that could be very useful if you play to his strengths, but he needs more time and I'd opt for loaning him out a full year more. If we get 25m or more it'd be hard to turn though imo.
Wow, football ref really offers a lot of useful data. Don't know what I've been doing using whoscored all these years. Those graphs make a lot better summation of Willock than my paragraphs of text do 😂

@14Henry I would just defer to those graphs posted, at this point, tbh. If the player represented there doesn't look like a big problem to incorporate into a top 10 side with top 4 ambitions, and looks more worth keeping than having £30m for him (saying nothing of what his value would certainly depreciate as a squad player for us), then we're probably not going to ever agree on this topic, which is fair enough (opinions and assholes and that...)!
 

14Henry

Well-Known Member
get rid you mean loan them out or cancel their contracts? These players are on huge wages and have very little value. So we need to bring in money as well. 25 million for Willock who wont be a starter isnt bad idea. Arteta dont rate him and with less games next season he will get less minutes. Cedric, Kola and El neny either gets loan or cancelled contracts. Business wise el neny staying being extra body makes more sense than rejecting money for willock and give him el nenys minutes
So we sell Willock for 25m and sign who for 25m? Which player for 25m guarantees a place in starting 11 and will take us from 8th to minimum 6th? Which player. List me 5 midfield players for 25m who will do that.
 

Sebastes

Statbomb Merchant
Trusted ✔️
Wow, football ref really offers a lot of useful data. Don't know what I've been doing using whoscored all these years. Those graphs make a lot better summation of Willock than my paragraphs of text do 😂
Yeah I think having these underlying stats helps with a lot of context. At the same time they usually need to be put into context as well, which one pretty much need a video scout to do properly. But it's nice procrastination 😆
 
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