OFFICIAL Joe Willock (Out)

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Rasmi

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So we sell Willock for 25m and sign who for 25m? Which player for 25m guarantees a place in starting 11 and will take us from 8th to minimum 6th? Which player. List me 5 midfield players for 25m who will do that.
Willock hasnt helped us to get 8th. so its not like we will be worse without him next season. He isnt a factor. But we need to sign a better rb and use some of that money to add other places like an attacking midfielder and a central midfielder when xhaka leaves. We dont have enough money to turn down 25 million for a guy who isnt getting minutes
 

Sebastes

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So we sell Willock for 25m and sign who for 25m? Which player for 25m guarantees a place in starting 11 and will take us from 8th to minimum 6th? Which player. List me 5 midfield players for 25m who will do that.
Why do we need to sign a guaranteed starter? Isn't the rationale here that it goes against logic to have an 25m player that's not being utilized fully and likely won't be unless he's developed through plenty of game time, which he won't get because he's not a good enough fit for our system? It's better to cash in those 25m and buy another player for maybe 15m that can be backup and put 10m to use in upgrading elsewhere
 

Red London

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There is certainly a small % of the people here asking us to keep Willock right now, who will be complaining if he doesn’t work out here and we sell for £12m in 2022…

I will be personally calling people out, don’t worry about that.
 

14Henry

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Willock hasnt helped us to get 8th. so its not like we will be worse without him next season. He isnt a factor. But we need to sign a better rb and use some of that money to add other places like an attacking midfielder and a central midfielder when xhaka leaves. We dont have enough money to turn down 25 million for a guy who isnt getting minutes
And we didn't have enough money to pay willian 200k a week and probably millions of pounds in agent and signing on fees.

Listen I know we need money. I get that. What I'm sick of seeing is people saying at 21 Joe Willock is too **** to play for Arsenal and Arteta because Arteta plays such wonderful football etc.

His football is worse than Emerys.

Let's see what Arteta and Edu conjure up this season but already its looking bad after messing about with Buendia.

My guess is they are waiting for opportunist signings again.

Ødegaard another loan. Cheap and easy
No right back signing. Loaning Hector because they have no skills to sell him and sticking with Chambers and Soares.
Selling Xhaka and buying Neves because Wolves don't think he's good enough or they want to change style.

Be excited. Couldn't be less excited the way this club is going.
 

14Henry

Well-Known Member
There is certainly a small % of the people here asking us to keep Willock right now who will be complaining if he doesn’t work out here and we sell for £12m in 2022…

I will be personally calling people out, don’t worry about that.
Ohhh **** please don't. How are we going to live with you calling us out.

Sell him for 25m no problem and watch us throw the money away like we have done before. Threw 80m away last summer and didn't improve. What's another few quid sure.
 

Rasmi

Well-Known Member
And we didn't have enough money to pay willian 200k a week and probably millions of pounds in agent and signing on fees.

Listen I know we need money. I get that. What I'm sick of seeing is people saying at 21 Joe Willock is too **** to play for Arsenal and Arteta because Arteta plays such wonderful football etc.

His football is worse than Emerys.

Let's see what Arteta and Edu conjure up this season but already its looking bad after messing about with Buendia.

My guess is they are waiting for opportunist signings again.

Ødegaard another loan. Cheap and easy
No right back signing. Loaning Hector because they have no skills to sell him and sticking with Chambers and Soares.
Selling Xhaka and buying Neves because Wolves don't think he's good enough or they want to change style.

Be excited. Couldn't be less excited the way this club is going.
`Arteta is useless and he is the first one i would get rid off. He is worse manager than our worst player is as a player. I hate the guy. But the club decided to put their faith in him and he doesnt rate the guy. so we either keep willock and let him waste his time and move while his stock is high and he will get good wages. For his own sake I hope he moves. we seen too many young players not move from big clubs when they have the chance and become forgotten men. he can be one of the main players for a big club like Newcastle
 

14Henry

Well-Known Member
Why do we need to sign a guaranteed starter? Isn't the rationale here that it goes against logic to have an 25m player that's not being utilized fully and likely won't be unless he's developed through plenty of game time, which he won't get because he's not a good enough fit for our system? It's better to cash in those 25m and buy another player for maybe 15m that can be backup and put 10m to use in upgrading elsewhere
Because if we are selling a young English player full of potential you have to make sure it's because the money is going to take you forward. Not back.

If selling Willock buys us Bissouma no problem. But if selling willock means paying some 32 year old 200k a week then no. Or signing mediocre players then no.
 

Red London

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Ohhh **** please don't. How are we going to live with you calling us out.

Sell him for 25m no problem and watch us throw the money away like we have done before. Threw 80m away last summer and didn't improve. What's another few quid sure.
No need to get your panties in the twist I wasn’t necessarily speaking about you.

Us selling him for 25m and wasting the money wouldn’t be a problem with the sale, it would be an issue with the new signing.

25-30m for Willock is fine, and I’m someone who actually protected this guy on here while people chatted **** about him. His loan has proven that he will have a better trajectory of his career at a side that doesn’t try to dominate possession.
 

lomekian

Well-Known Member
Don't really disagree with anything here but the thing this post misses is that Willock as a squad player is just a poor use of value. Instead of a valuable £25-30m in the bank to spend on much more needed reinforcements to a squad desperately in need of reinforcements, we keep him around and watch yet another asset depreciate, just like AMN last season, who you assured me wouldn't lose value (and does anyone really think we'll get £20m for him now? I'd be happy with £10m).

No one likes seeing academy products sold (can honestly say the day I read Gnabry was going to be sold was probably the most discouraging day for me as an Arsenal fan in recent history, bar the day of the Em*ry hire), but you have to be realistic and know with which academy products it's time to cash in and get value. Willock, as someone that's extremely unlikely to be an important factor for a Champions League club in England in his future, is one of those cases, just as AMN was last summer.
If willock remotely performs for us next season, his value will increase significantly. Particularly as HG. You don't sell homegrown players unless you actively want them out in this current market, unless you have an excess. No-one is paying £30m for Willock. Just like all the nonsense about £25m for AMN last year when it turns out Wolves never went above 15m, a value he will not have dented with some good displays for WBA. Just as we were never offered 20m for AMN, I wouldn't even contemplate selling him for less than 20m now unless he forces his way out.

I see enough in WIllock to see a player who 'could' be very valuable for this club, and not just in a monetary sense. It all comes down to what Arteta's vision is. and that of EDU etc longer term.
 

14Henry

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No need to get your panties in the twist I wasn’t necessarily speaking about you.

Us selling him for 25m and wasting the money wouldn’t be a problem with the sale, it would be an issue with the new signing.

25-30m for Willock is fine, and I’m someone who actually protecting this guy on here. His loan has proven that he will have a better trajectory of his career at a side that doesn’t try to dominate possession.
I'm the one in the last few pages saying about maybe keeping him. So obviously you're directing your comment in my direction.

Arteta and Edu don't even have a plan. It's clear as day. Has been from last season and same will happen again.

I for one hope of Willock does go he tears it up. Newcastle fans love him and he seems to have fitted in well there. Just hate seeing my club sell young English talent to replace it with senior citizens who have no care for the club.
 

Penn_

Established Member
Loan him. At worst his value drops to 10M. For what we’d get and what he could be I wouldn’t consider that a bad gamble.

Won’t get the consistency required here though.
 

lomekian

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KDB was killing it for Bremen at 21. Kanté is a freak ball winner that's unlike pretty much any starter in a top team at the moment, who was still scouted and discovered. Mahrez came from a Ligue 2 side, turning down offers from PSG and Marseille's academies, and was still picked out by Leicester at age 22. I remember watching him his first year in the premier against us and thinking, "wow, this guy is talented"--game at the Emirates where we won but Mahrez caused us lots of problems.

Players generally follow more or less linear career arks. There are exceptions, but 99% of top players are doing the business for their country's U21 sides, and often U19 sides before it (lower age you get the less correlation to later success you get, naturally).

What players don't do, except in the rarest of cases (can't think of one, tbh, but I'm sure there is, there are always special cases in anything in life) is all of a sudden show a skillset / qualities they don't even show a wink of at age 21, especially if they've already been under the management of a high level club (perhaps this might happen for someone who is ignored and is playing in lesser leagues, under less developed development methods) for a long period of time (Willock has been in our first-team set-up for over 4 years now). That is, a player who is averaging 16.2 passes per game in his age 21 season, with very little to no creative ability or ability to carry out many of the typical functions of midfield play, there is a less than 1% chance of him being above average or excelling in those categories at any point in his career. Simply put, he can't just develop technical qualities and a personality that he simply doesn't have later in his career, by art of magic.
You are largely right, but I don't think WIllock needs a huge leap forward to be effective. OF course he will never be KDB, who was a prodigy the whole world knew about at Genk. The fact is Willock has played quite a lot for his age, and outside of the EPL was a clear attacking threat before his loan. It all depends on what we want him to do. Personally, I think he should focus on getting better defensively. He'll never be a playmaker, but unlike Ramsey, has the speed to get back if he breaks forward to threaten in the box. So an attacking focused B2B type should be his aim. He can tackle and win headers, but needs to develop mentally in the defensive end. I actually think he has the personality already - more so than say the more talented Nelson.
 

lomekian

Well-Known Member
Apples and oranges. Gravenberch and Bellingham are far more technically gifted players and far more natural midfielders than Willock.

Gravenberch averaged 68.4 passes per game this season, FFS. Bellingham averaged 35.2 for Borussia Dortmund at age 17.

Gravenberch and Bellingham both have far less limitations than Willock and that is basically the long and short of it. Both have enough talent to play in a pivot, and in Gravenberch's case, to be an effective operator in the half spaces as an advanced 8 in a possession system. There was some discussion that Gravenberch should even be more of a 10, last season, I haven't watched enough of Ajax to know how that's come along but he's a major, well-rounded, technically accomplished talent.
Both are talents at a higher level, but he does have a level of explosiveness and scoring instincts they both lack. Gravenberch hasn't kicked on as much as I expected, and I'm still not sure where he ends up to be honest.
 

14Henry

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Both are talents at a higher level, but he does have a level of explosiveness and scoring instincts they both lack. Gravenberch hasn't kicked on as much as I expected, and I'm still not sure where he ends up to be honest.
Bellingham is going right to the top. No point comparing Willock to him. Willock is at a mid table club. He doesn't need to be as good as Bellingham to play for us.
 

lomekian

Well-Known Member
Bellingham is going right to the top. No point comparing Willock to him. Willock is at a mid table club. He doesn't need to be as good as Bellingham to play for us.
Don't get me wrong. I rate Bellingham much higher & want us to keep Willock
 

Gn1212

Well-Known Member
Is Willock turning from a 25m player to a 15m player if he fails to make an impression with more chances a risk that a club like Arsenal can't take?

Mind you, the market should look healthier next summer if the situation with COVID improves.

If we sell him for 25m and he keeps on his form throughout the season, his market value will probably double.

We've got 15+ players we have to move on. Should Willock be the priority?
 

RunTheTrap

Nobody laughs on my "jokes" 😫
Let my boy Willock cook. Keep him. And let’s go to a 433.

ESR-Auba-Saka
Willock-Bissouma-Partey
Tierney-Gabriel-Saliba-Aarons
Onana.

F@ck all that 60% possession nonsense and give me some all-action pressing. Or drop ESR into midfield and put Pepe or Martinelli on the left. Either way let Joe cook. Don’t overspend on Ødegaard.
 

Barry

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I agree there's a lot of good stuff in the comp. But it's just that - a comp. Here, for example you have Willock's passing and possession/carrying stats, which shows a different truth than the showreel you posted.


View attachment 3229View attachment 3230
There are some really nice things in here ofc, esp carries into penalty area, touches in penalty and progressive passes received shows he thrives in that area. However he also have generally quite poor passing stats (even for someone who's not mainly a passer) and he loses the ball a lot, being in the worst 6 percent of midfielders for miscontrols and also being in the 93rd percentile for amount of attempted dribbles but only in the 35th percentile for successful dribble % indicates he fails a high amount of dribbles, which is also indicated through him being in the worst 4% when it comes to being dispossessed. Should be said he scores very well in how many successful dribbles he has, but question is if it's worth when loses the ball so much. He also have very bad passes received % which means he fails to reach/control the ball when being the receiver.

Willock also scores very poorly for amount of times dribbled past, dribblers tackled % and successful pressures % (successful pressure = team gains possession within 5 seconds of the player pressuring opponent). He makes up for that with energy tbf to him and really puts in a shift. He is a good tackler as well.

He excels in goal and shot creation as well as shooting overall. Has very good xG. However he's outperformed his xG massively in his games which would indicate luck/purple patch and I think it's fair to counter you statement of him should have been scoring more as plain false based on stats. He should have scored less.

These stats are for the whole PL season so includes Arsenal, but in general he has worse stats during his spell with Newcastle, which again would indicate a purple patch.

I still think there's a player in there and one that could be very useful if you play to his strengths, but he needs more time and I'd opt for loaning him out a full year more. If we get 25m or more it'd be hard to turn though imo.
Yeah, this deep dive into his passing limitations is useful and does highlight some issues with his general play. I still think his offensive / tackling / dribbling stats are good enough that it's worth keeping him as an option that provides something different to the team. He's only going to get better as well, and although he over performed his XG it was still something like 3rd in the league for midfielders - still elite, even in a hot streak
 

Barry

Well-Known Member
If willock remotely performs for us next season, his value will increase significantly. Particularly as HG. You don't sell homegrown players unless you actively want them out in this current market, unless you have an excess. No-one is paying £30m for Willock. Just like all the nonsense about £25m for AMN last year when it turns out Wolves never went above 15m, a value he will not have dented with some good displays for WBA. Just as we were never offered 20m for AMN, I wouldn't even contemplate selling him for less than 20m now unless he forces his way out.

I see enough in WIllock to see a player who 'could' be very valuable for this club, and not just in a monetary sense. It all comes down to what Arteta's vision is. and that of EDU etc longer term.
It would be nuts to sell him for less than £30m, absolutely nuts
 

Sebastes

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Yeah, this deep dive into his passing limitations is useful and does highlight some issues with his general play. I still think his offensive / tackling / dribbling stats are good enough that it's worth keeping him as an option that provides something different to the team. He's only going to get better as well, and although he over performed his XG it was still something like 3rd in the league for midfielders - still elite, even in a hot streak
Yeah, his regular xG is very, very good. He really has that goal threat from midfield we're lacking. I'm still a bit worried about how we'd fit him in and he probably needs game time more than Saka and ESR right now. Ideal outcome would be to loan him out again imo, so he gets a run of games for a whole season. Then we can make a decision on him.
 
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