OFFICIAL Joe Willock (Out)

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Sebastes

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@TromsoGooner @Barry as an add on to my replies

For me it’s obvious Willock has potential to develop into a really fine midfielder and the one thing he needs is more playing time and exposure to different set ups. There are two ways of going about this - keeping him and playing him or getting him a move to another club, loan or permanent.

I think in the end the question to ask is what kind of direction as a club we want here and how much time we can spend developing prospects. We could develop all of Willock, Saka, ESR, Martinelli by playing them at Arsenal. But then we’d deliberately need to give up some of our ambitions/aspirations in the short to mid term. Or we could say that we don’t have that time/patience and need more experienced and fully developed players to push ourselves back into top 4/6 the coming season or two, in which case we sell Willock on the back of some fantastic performances and a (probably) inflated price.

I’m personally happy with any of those directions. For me the key is decisiveness, clarity and commitment from the club, which I desperately lack right now.
 

Alexs

Well-Known Member
So, how much lower in the league do you think we'd come by developing all of Willock, Saka, ESR and Martinelli, compared to the sort of 'fully developed' players we've been linked to?

Our manager has shown less promise than the players you list but we seem happy to keep him at the expense of short to mid term ambitions/aspirations. The only Arteta project I could sign up to is one of development of both himself and his young players. Otherwise, I want a fully developed manager.
 

Sebastes

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So, how much lower in the league do you think we'd come by developing all of Willock, Saka, ESR and Martinelli, compared to the sort of 'fully developed' players we've been linked to?

Our manager has shown less promise than the players you list but we seem happy to keep him at the expense of short to mid term ambitions/aspirations. The only Arteta project I could sign up to is one of development of both himself and his young players. Otherwise, I want a fully developed manager.
I don’t know tbh. I’m pretty sure we won’t finish top 6 anyway, although there’s some potential to do so. Maybe the 8th-12th range is realistic with the outside chance of finishing as high as 5th or low as 14th if everything works out (or doesn’t).

I’m not too bothered with finishing 12th if there’s a clear objective and commitment to developing prospects AND consistent and continuous progress in both playing style and league finish.
 

tcahill

Well-Known Member
Getting Emi Martinez vibes from this one.

You don’t sell your better players or talents just to raise funds ffs. We should try to sell our trash or our owner needs to invest in the squad. If he can’t do that then bring in a manager that can work with what he has available.

Owner hasn't invested for the past decade, I wish he would but I can't see it happening.

Again, I wish we were getting 25+ mill bids for Kola, Willian Torreira etc but it ain't happening, we can't even get rid of them for free.

The most likely outcome is Willock's value decreasing next season, as he's not going to be starting over Partey, ESR or a new CM signing. Now is the best time to sell him, assuming we get an offer of 25 mill or over.
 

Barry

Well-Known Member
100%. I didn’t necessarily set out to downplay his strengths in attack but the post I wrote is a bit contrarian and provocative in its nature and I guess that’s a side effect.

What you’re pointing out with his xG (foremost) being absolutely elite is what makes me want to keep him and loan him. There are also a couple of traits that only partly reflected in stats but are much more clear through the eye test. His ability to find space as a runner and time his runs is the most standout imo. It’s reflected in his xG (you simply don’t get that high xG as a mid if you’re not good at timing runs into the box) as well as the stat “progressive passes received” in which he’s in the 76th (or so) percentile. Coupled with the fact that the lions share of his touches are far up the pitch it paints a picture of someone who is crucial to his teams ability to fast move the ball up field. Ofc this is all pretty obvious to the eye - I just had to nerd down and give the stats context example out of my passion for data 😂
In fairness you are right about his general play stats as well and I think that he will round out a bit in some areas over time but is always going to have some rough edges. Just trying watching him in slightly easier EL matches in particular, there is a lot of promise in his running and dribbling game and you'd expect him to be able to develop that over time and become a midfielder who is able to drive forward regularly with the ball. I also think he will improve his general defensive consistency - physically he has most of the tools as he fills out.

That said he's never going to be a technical, passing player and whilst he's got some decent passes in his locker he has never been hugely influential on the ball and I guess that's directly linked to his attacking output and instinct to ghost into the box.
 

blrgooner

Established Member
So, how much lower in the league do you think we'd come by developing all of Willock, Saka, ESR and Martinelli, compared to the sort of 'fully developed' players we've been linked to?

Our manager has shown less promise than the players you list but we seem happy to keep him at the expense of short to mid term ambitions/aspirations. The only Arteta project I could sign up to is one of development of both himself and his young players. Otherwise, I want a fully developed manager.
Actually thats a very good analogy(Willock vs Arteta). You rate a player because he scored 7 goals in the last 7 games, but find it difficult to find promise a manager who had the third best result in the league over a period of around 20 games.

Reg Willock, I hope we don`t sell him. I think we have a good player here and maybe we should keep him and give him games to develop. He could be a brilliant option off the bench as well. The only worry I have is that fans might again insist on having him start games with logic like "Elneny gets minutes, why not Willock" which is silly IMO because we are talking about players in different positions with different roles here. Its very clear that he is at his best when he has 2 midfielders behind him right now and the stats which is being quoted here pretty much confirms that. I think he has shown great promise in certain aspects of his game but certain other aspects need a lot of improvement. He does have the basics though and I think will improve over the next couple of years.
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Actually thats a very good analogy(Willock vs Arteta). You rate a player because he scored 7 goals in the last 7 games, but find it difficult to find promise a manager who had the third best result in the league over a period of around 20 games.
Willock only played about a dozen full games for Newcastle as a midfielder and scored 7 goals. That's outstanding.

Arteta took over from a manager who was sacked in 8th place. He came 8th, and then following season came 8th. That's zero improvement.
 

blrgooner

Established Member
Willock only played about a dozen full games for Newcastle as a midfielder and scored 7 goals. That's outstanding.

Arteta took over from a manager who was sacked in 8th place. He came 8th, and then following season came 8th. That's zero improvement.
Well, What is interesting is the fact that you take context into account in one case and not in the other. Willock played over a 1000 minutes for Arsenal in the first half of the season for Arsenal before he went to Newcastle. But your rating of Willocks promise seems to rise from performance in a dozen games.
Don`t really want to get back to the Arteta discussion here though. I do think Willock will be a very good player in the future. Either for us or for some other club.
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Well, What is interesting is the fact that you take context into account in one case and not in the other. Willock played over a 1000 minutes for Arsenal in the first half of the season for Arsenal before he went to Newcastle. But your rating of Willocks promise seems to rise from performance in a dozen games.
Don`t really want to get back to the Arteta discussion here though. I do think Willock will be a very good player in the future. Either for us or for some other club.
Yeah, the lad shone under an experienced manager.
 

blrgooner

Established Member
Yeah, the lad shone under an experienced manager.
Again "Shone" can be used in a limited context of a dozen games and poor performance in other games can be thought of as due to "other reasons"(Manager in this case). Consequently, when someone has a bunch of poor games and then shows improvement, the improvement is considered as "promise".
All this is applied to one person here and not to other(Mainly because for one person, after the bunch of poor games, many people decided that he is **** and didn`t let any new data to change that belief)
 

Alexs

Well-Known Member
Like many young players Willock looks like a confidence player who needs faith from the manager for a decent run of games, regardless of whether that manager is experienced or inexperienced. I do agree that 4-3-3 is needed for that but given it's supposed to be Arteta's preference, try it. If Arteta's tactics and team selection are heavily influenced by his own fear of losing his job, we're in for a torrid time.
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Again "Shone" can be used in a limited context of a dozen games and poor performance in other games can be thought of as due to "other reasons"(Manager in this case). Consequently, when someone has a bunch of poor games and then shows improvement, the improvement is considered as "promise".
All this is applied to one person here and not to other(Mainly because for one person, after the bunch of poor games, many people decided that he is **** and didn`t let any new data to change that belief)
Your comparison is not even close to being validl One is a young apprenticed footballer making his way, and if he makes a few mistakes it’s not the end of the world and when he scores 7 goals in 7 games from midfield he should be praised.

The other is being paid millions to make major decisions in a multi million pound business. His inexperience has taken us out of Europe (even the conference) and down to mid table in the EPL. Some of the transfer business has been ridiculous and we’ve broken records for all the wrong reasons. We’re a laughing stock amongst our rivals. Arsenal is not a charity for young learning managers. You tell me any other business on this planet that would keep an inexperienced manager whose losing money hand over fist, and just as important, losing ground on rival businesses. Chelsea made the right choice with Lampard and they’re back up at their investment level.
 

blrgooner

Established Member
Your comparison is not even close to being validl One is a young apprenticed footballer making his way, and if he makes a few mistakes it’s not the end of the world and when he scores 7 goals in 7 games from midfield he should be praised.

The other is being paid millions to make major decisions in a multi million pound business. His inexperience has taken us out of Europe (even the conference) and down to mid table in the EPL. Some of the transfer business has been ridiculous and we’ve broken records for all the wrong reasons. We’re a laughing stock amongst our rivals. Arsenal is not a charity for young learning managers. You tell me any other business on this planet that would keep an inexperienced manager whose losing money hand over fist, and just as important, losing ground on rival businesses. Chelsea made the right choice with Lampard and they’re back up at their investment level.
The reason is very very simple. It is not that the club is a charity etc etc. It is that for whatever reason he was kept in the job in December when we were in shambles and after that there was a marked improvement. Third in the league is the way better than the "investment level" Arsenal is in.
Also, The points total in the last 4 seasons have been 63,70,56,61. From this, it looks to me like the season where we got 70 was an aberration and last season in the end was not much more disastrous than the previous seasons.
If Lampard had kept his job and then improved the performance to the "investment level" of Chelsea. He would not have been sacked.
Transfer Business etc etc are subjective measures and we have spent very very little so far when compared with our rivals. I would reserve judgement on that until we see a proper budget being given(Which looks like the case this season).
 

blrgooner

Established Member
The reason is very very simple. It is not that the club is a charity etc etc. It is that for whatever reason he was kept in the job in December when we were in shambles and after that there was a marked improvement. Third in the league is the way better than the "investment level" Arsenal is in.
Also, The points total in the last 4 seasons have been 63,70,56,61. From this, it looks to me like the season where we got 70 was an aberration and last season in the end was not much more disastrous than the previous seasons.
If Lampard had kept his job and then improved the performance to the "investment level" of Chelsea. He would not have been sacked.
Transfer Business etc etc are subjective measures and we have spent very very little so far when compared with our rivals. I would reserve judgement on that until we see a proper budget being given(Which looks like the case this season).
BTW lets not again make this an Arteta discussion though. There are lots of them in this forum. With regards to Willock I don`t disagree with you at all. I think he should be kept
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
The reason is very very simple. It is not that the club is a charity etc etc. It is that for whatever reason he was kept in the job in December when we were in shambles and after that there was a marked improvement. Third in the league is the way better than the "investment level" Arsenal is in.
Also, The points total in the last 4 seasons have been 63,70,56,61. From this, it looks to me like the season where we got 70 was an aberration and last season in the end was not much more disastrous than the previous seasons.
If Lampard had kept his job and then improved the performance to the "investment level" of Chelsea. He would not have been sacked.
Transfer Business etc etc are subjective measures and we have spent very very little so far when compared with our rivals. I would reserve judgement on that until we see a proper budget being given(Which looks like the case this season).
Third in the league? :lol:. He was top of the league if you just take the last 3 games, and he’s top of the league now on alphabetical standings. What a manager.
 

blrgooner

Established Member
Third in the league? :lol:. He was top of the league if you just take the last 3 games, and he’s top of the league now on alphabetical standings. What a manager.
Yeah.. Thats why we should not consider 0 games or 3 game runs as a judgement of form. a 20 game run on the other hand is a completely different thing. I know this has been brought up multiple times so I don`t expect anybody to understand this.
 

Trill

Not Trilly
I don’t know tbh. I’m pretty sure we won’t finish top 6 anyway, although there’s some potential to do so. Maybe the 8th-12th range is realistic with the outside chance of finishing as high as 5th or low as 14th if everything works out (or doesn’t).

I’m not too bothered with finishing 12th if there’s a clear objective and commitment to developing prospects AND consistent and continuous progress in both playing style and league finish.

We don't have any talent at the club worth finishing 12th for. All these kids are good, but yeah even Saka isn't a Fabregas. Hell he might not even be a Wilshere.
 

yousif_arsenal

King of Twitter Rumours
Moderator
Monaco won't be paying more than 20m euros even if they owned by owned who worth 7b but they aren't heavy spenders than before. Monaco better choice than Newcastle
 
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