Joe Willock: The True Joerdie

Riou

A-M's Resident Jobber
Vieira was a better footballer than the likes of Xavi and co, imo...football isn't just about passing, though Paddy was also a quality passer.

He was faster, stronger, ridiculous dribbler, better in defense...miss proper box to box midfielders like that, and Patrick was the king of them.
 

mirrorstare

Well-Known Member
Oh man, how I wish that conversation about us not wanting to emulate City was true. Unfortunately it isn't, not even by the posters claiming that. Most of the fanbase indeed wants us to emulate that soulless moneywasting crap, from every single Arteta supporter (there is no other real reason to support him) to those that reduce being an Arsenal fan to winning in whatever way it takes.
 

GDeep™

Dissociating
You think using two m’s on ‘bumm boy’ is going to save you? 🌈 Ive reported it. And yes, Torreira will come back!
One M censors the word, I don’t know why. Don’t know why you reported it either, it’s common football language to use that word to describe a poor footballer.
 

Jury

Mission Accomplished
One M censors the word, I don’t know why. Don’t know why you reported it either, it’s common football language to use that word to describe a poor footballer.
🤣 Do you think your hero Grimandi ever reported back to Wenger with “non, Arsène, he is, ‘ow you say? ... bummboy player... no good for us”. Never, because the wanker told Wenger to sign them all ffs.
 

RunTheTrap

In midfield with Cellabos
@Football Manager wants something that has never or very rarely happened in the history of the PL. Outside City, his ideal midfields have never existed.
Even City don’t rely purely on technique. No football team in the history of football has been successful by being purely technical. It’s absurd. Don’t tell me about the peak Barca team or Ajax. Keita, Abidal, Yaya Toure, Puyol and Dani Alves were great athletes. Even Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets could run and press intensely week after week. In fact, their pressing were so good, there were rumours of PEDs. Again, being a good athlete isn’t just running fast or being strong. It could be the amount of sprints you can make, distance travelled, jumping ability etc.
Name me one world class footballer who had zero athleticism and was all technique. You can’t. I’m willing to be proved wrong but it doesn’t exist.
 

Abhishek Arora

Well-Known Member
That's three goals now from nine appearances for Joe Willock, two of them coming off the bench
Arteta couldn’t get the best out of him
Atleast could have saved willian’s wages
 

Jury

Mission Accomplished
That's three goals now from nine appearances for Joe Willock, two of them coming off the bench
Arteta couldn’t get the best out of him
Atleast could have saved willian’s wages
He's popped up with a couple goals but he's also been dragged off and started games as a sub too. At Newcastle.

What other players of ours who would struggle to get regular starts at bottom of the table teams, is Arteta apparently not getting the best out of? He looks to be getting the best out of all our better players, so why would we give a toss about Willock? They can't all play :lol:
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
Even City don’t rely purely on technique. No football team in the history of football has been successful by being purely technical. It’s absurd. Don’t tell me about the peak Barca team or Ajax. Keita, Abidal, Yaya Toure, Puyol and Dani Alves were great athletes. Even Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets could run and press intensely week after week. In fact, their pressing were so good, there were rumours of PEDs. Again, being a good athlete isn’t just running fast or being strong. It could be the amount of sprints you can make, distance travelled, jumping ability etc.
Name me one world class footballer who had zero athleticism and was all technique. You can’t. I’m willing to be proved wrong but it doesn’t exist.
I agree.

Never said players should be based purely on technique. It’s just that having good technique is a basic requirement.

If you ask me to choose between Benzema, and a Benzema in Drogba’s size, I will choose the later.

If you ask me to choose between Ronaldinho, and a Ronaldinho with Walcott pace, I will also choose the later.

The names that you have mentioned, they are not pure athletes too.

And that’s why I said Smith, Cottrell, Cirjan “might” have a chance to make it here. They have the basic requirements. But they have to either bulk up a bit to be more physical, or train to be technically superior to overcome their physical shortcomings.

Nketiah, Willock, AMN...they lack the basic requirements to be successful here.
 
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MutableEarth

Bloody awesome NSFW avatars
Trusted
What a strange discussion to read :lol:.

Willock seemingly will continue to prove a lot of doubters wrong in the next season or so. I would like it to be here but I don't see that being feasible, what with duds like Ceballos and Elneny accruing the trust of Arteta by way of being more experienced and Willock still being very raw and needing to work on his game more. That said, I'm eager to see him do well on loan again next season as I think there's a real player in there and always have. I would be reluctant to let him leave too easily, I'd only accept close to Iwobi money to let him go.
 

GoonerJay24

Well-Known Member
Can you imagine willock, instead of Fabregas , controlling the midfield of the 07-08 Arsenal, playing one touch passes with rosicky/Hleb/Van persie, keeping possession, distributing the ball around, creating chances after chances, playing beautiful through balls?

I never make it personal to anyone of you here. And for every of the points I made, I try to explain with a reason. So for whoever that is, stop the disrespectful shxt from your shxt mouth.

I see what you mean and fundamentally agree with you that Arsenal, should be doing everything they can to get back to their default philosophy of quick passing football. We shouldn't be copying anyone elses style when we had Wengerball for years.

Issue with your argument is that all teams require balance across positions and Willock offers something different through his third man runs around the box to become that goalscoring midfielder. I don't think he should start for Arsenal in the coming years but with his qualities, can be a prevalent squad player.
 

GoonerJay24

Well-Known Member
Also, I'm not knocking the likes of Hleb, Rosicky, Nasri, Cesc, Santi etc. They were really good players for us but none of them were Iniesta, Xavi level players, as Cesc proved in his stint at Barca.

There's a reason why we won very little with those guys in midfield. It was lovely to watch but we'd get steamrollered by very good sides with more physicality and nous about them.

Put a 'Lesser' technical player from your perspective in there like Vieria or Gilberto and they'd have been a far more effective midfield unit.

I think Cesc and especially Nasri was just as good 'technically' Xavi etc. Fabregas just couldn't adapt tactically to what Pep and Barca were instructing him during his stint there. Still think he played a big role for them and combined well with Messi.

The reason we won nothing in that period between 2006-2011 is mostly due to a lack of tactical nous, experience and leadership. Also never helped that one or two of our best players were injured throughout a campaign. Overall though we did well to consistently make the top four positions given our miniscule budget compared to other side's.

Lastly Viera was a highly gifted technician so don't know what your on about.
 

Riou

A-M's Resident Jobber
Apologise to Santi especially, for referring to him as just a "Tiny Spanish guy"

Just bigging up the GOAT that was Vieira and Santi got caught in the crossfire, sorry man...was a pleasure to watch Cazorla play for us too, plus he is probably the most likeable footballer to ever play the game...definitely love that tiny, Spanish guy :lol:
 

Iceman10

Well-Known Member
I think Cesc and especially Nasri was just as good 'technically' Xavi etc. Fabregas just couldn't adapt tactically to what Pep and Barca were instructing him during his stint there. Still think he played a big role for them and combined well with Messi.

The reason we won nothing in that period between 2006-2011 is mostly due to a lack of tactical nous, experience and leadership. Also never helped that one or two of our best players were injured throughout a campaign. Overall though we did well to consistently make the top four positions given our miniscule budget compared to other side's.

Lastly Viera was a highly gifted technician so don't know what your on about.

If you are playing high possession football, suffocating the opponent, Xavi and Iniesta were technically supreme for that. Cesc was a different type of player of course.
 

Abhishek Arora

Well-Known Member
He's popped up with a couple goals but he's also been dragged off and started games as a sub too. At Newcastle.

What other players of ours who would struggle to get regular starts at bottom of the table teams, is Arteta apparently not getting the best out of? He looks to be getting the best out of all our better players, so why would we give a toss about Willock? They can't all play :lol:
I mean Arteta could have kept him Instead of signing willian.
 

GoonerJay24

Well-Known Member
If you are playing high possession football, suffocating the opponent, Xavi and Iniesta were technically supreme for that. Cesc was a different type of player of course.
Cesc was use to a possession-based brand with us too but there were slight differences in style.

Wengerball forces openings through quick combination-plays and flicks to go through tight defences.

Tiki taka waits for openings with use of technical skill and spatial awareness.

I preferred Wenger ball personally, but I admit tika taka obtained a better defensive approach, more playing cohesiveness; as their core players came through the La Masia academy, had better luck with injuries and had Messi.
 

Blood on the Tracks

Well-Known Member
I think Cesc and especially Nasri was just as good 'technically' Xavi etc. Fabregas just couldn't adapt tactically to what Pep and Barca were instructing him during his stint there. Still think he played a big role for them and combined well with Messi.

It's your opinion but I strongly disagree that Cesc or Nasri were just as good technically as Xavi or Iniesta.

Don't get me wrong they were very good technically but in my opinion they were a clear level or two below a generational talent like Xavi or Iniesta.
 

Rex Banter

Got Swerved By Gallas
Trusted
It's your opinion but I strongly disagree that Cesc or Nasri were just as good technically as Xavi or Iniesta.

Don't get me wrong they were very good technically but in my opinion they were a clear level or two below a generational talent like Xavi or Iniesta.

Yeah I’m no lover of tiki taka but Cesc was levels below Xavi and Iniesta.

No coincidence that they won the CL the year before he joined and next won it the year after he left.
 

Blood on the Tracks

Well-Known Member
Yeah I’m no lover of tiki taka but Cesc was levels below Xavi and Iniesta.

No coincidence that they won the CL the year before he joined and next won it the year after he left.

I wasn't a fan of Tiki Taka either. I could appreciate it as almost an art form but it did nothing for me. Messi made it bearable to watch.

Spain playing a similar style without him was as dull as ditch water to me.
 

RunTheTrap

In midfield with Cellabos
I agree.

Never said players should be based purely on technique. It’s just that having good technique is a basic requirement.

If you ask me to choose between Benzema, and a Benzema in Drogba’s size, I will choose the later.

If you ask me to choose between Ronaldinho, and a Ronaldinho with Walcott pace, I will also choose the later.

The names that you have mentioned, they are not pure athletes too.

And that’s why I said Smith, Cottrell, Cirjan “might” have a chance to make it here. They have the basic requirements. But they have to either bulk up a bit to be more physical, or train to be technically superior to overcome their physical shortcomings.

Nketiah, Willock, AMN...they lack the basic requirements to be successful here.
I think technique is too broad of a thing to say one player is completely better than another in most circumstances. Willock and AMN are not the strongest in passing or ball retention compared to the names you’ve listed but the former are very good ball carriers and dribblers. Even Martinelli said Willock is the best at dribbling and the boys call him “Willockinho”. He’s not a scrub. He’s been getting apps under Wenger and I personally believe he’s the best judge of young players. Willock has been getting starts under Wenger, Emery and Arteta. Smith (who I rate) has been used sparingly in a league one side. I think Willock probably better in technical aspects that you may not rate as highly as others. Like I said dribbling, ball carrying and ball striking are probably areas where he excels at.
One thing you seem to forget is that players CAN improve on their shortcomings. Ramsey was quite loose with his retention but in time he became a clean passer. Song was one of the poorest footballers I remembered when he was young and he got a summer move to one of the most technical teams in modern football. Don’t be so harsh on Joe, broaden your viewpoint, he could definitely surprise you.
 

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