Joe Willock: The True Joerdie

[Rasmi]

I hear what you're saying but why sell him for 20 million when he could potentially be worth a lot more for us. I mean I don't think it hurts if we gave him a new contract and see what he could become with more game time. Think about it, this is the first time in his career he's been given consistent minutes, imagine what full season could do for him. And I'm probably in minority that think Willock is worth more than a paltry 20 million. If Newcastle can spend 40 million on Joelintion they can spend the same amount on Joe IF he carries on with his trajectory.

I think you are. I don’t think he is worth 20 million. Specially in this climate. I think judging a midfielder on goals alone in the space of 11 games is very misleading. I just don’t think he is good enough or has enough talent to ever be more than a squad player at best. Maybe I’m wrong though. But the England tweet is so funny as it’s such bullsh1t. He is not even in the u21 squad and hasn’t been for a while

 

[Football Manager]

Macho said:
“xxxx is shxt on the ball, we need iniesta, xavi, Spanish technical toddler etc” isn’t sound assessment, so yes we people disagree I’m afraid.

Answer this @Macho

How are these different to what he has posted? They mean the same thing. The only reason that you would agree with his argument but not mine is because you are bias.

Football Manager said:
Sacrifice all the midfield controlling to generate possession and chances for the team, sacrifice the gap leaving behind when booming up. Just to go for glory. Do you know how much worse off as a team to have that? When your team could have so many more chances created if you are sitting there in the midfield area controlling the midfield instead.

Football Manager said:
A big weaknesses of willock is the lack of general play involvement (which is the strengths of ESR). Instead of bombing forward (or running back), he should stay close to the ball. He should show up in space close to the ball, constantly providing passing options for his teammates, to be involved a lot more in the buildup/passing/possession play.

Football Manager said:
The more you create, the more your team will score. Taking a creative player out of the equation, and replaced with a player that can only scores goals is making the team worse off. Your team will score less in total.

Football Manager said:
If you don’t count willock’s goal, his midfield play was a 5.5/10.

I would rather having a Cazorla type, 9/10 midfield play, even if he has no assists/goals, the team will play so much better, we will have so much more chances created.

Our team is shxt at maintaining possession and creating chances. We need more technical players. If you have a huge liability in the build up play, like ramsey, your team will suffer in both attacking and defending. The only good thing is that this type of players scores a few here and there, but that’s it. They sucks up a hell lot of possible chance creation/build up possibly that will eventually leads to more supplies for the attackers.

 

[Mrs Bergkamp]

I understand the sentiment here but can’t think of any self respecting coach who’d agree to this. If we don’t trust him to pick the team and make tactical decisions we should replace him with someone we do.

I was hoping such an act would force him to resign. Thoughts of Brian Robson and Terry Venebles crossed my mind.

 

[Rex Stone]

Answer this @Macho

How are these different to what he has posted? They mean the same thing. The only reason that you would agree with his argument but not mine is because you are bias.

They’re good points @Macho

 

[AberGooner]

 

[Lidl_Reed]

You need one midfielder who can get forward now

I have huge respect for @Football Manager wanting complete players, but having complete players is almost impossible on a budget. What our manager should do is try to get complete players if he can, but if he can't, go for what is possible

A pure No 10 is no longer in vogue. What you need in a three man midfield is one midfielder willing to make runs beyond the defence to stretch it and willing to carry the ball. That can be Willock. Is he good enough to start like that? I don't think so, but he is more than good enough to be a backup. We need another midfielder with the technical prowess to carry the ball and play out of the press. That is NOT Ceballos but a less wasteful player of that profile. And we need one player who can defend and put an end to counter attacks. That could be Partey

Let's look at the top teams now. City have De Bruyne, Rodri and Fernandinho and they cover those roles. Chelsea have Mount, Jorginho and Kante. United have Fernandes, Pogba and McTominay. It's the model that works.

Notice in all 3 archetypes, Elneny does not fit in at all. He's an utter waste. We don't need someone who can ONLY maintain possession. The person who does that should be good enough to play the ball forward as well

I don't know the solution. I think we could try something like Creative deep lying midfielder-Willock-Partey as our base, but I'm not sure who that midfielder could be. We could try ESR there.

The issue with our current midfield is that it's got no soul and no purpose. Elneny can't create at all, and he isn't good enough defensively to be our main defensive midfielder. Xhaka can sort of do the job that we might want to try ESR in, but he has zero mobility to beat a press. Still, he could be tried there or in the Partey role. It's one reason why I'm not a huge fan of Xhaka either because he's too limited in what he does. Anyway, Ceballos is too weak and too inconsistent to be in any role in this midfield either.

Just my two cents, could be utterly wrong

 

[mirrorstare]

Don't really care if he's shxt on the ball, his contribution to Newcastle's survival campaign went way over my expectations. He deserves another shot just for that, and the fact that he thrived in chaotic, poorly thought of midfields suits us perfectly at the moment.

 

[REEVIE1995]

People are rewriting history. I hate Arteta more than anyone here. But he didn’t do willock wrong. He rarely did well for us and was usually a ghost in midfield. Before he was loaned out no one was against it or was calling for him to get mind. I swear if nketiah go out on loan next season and has a golden spell people will cry the manager never gave him chance and he should have started games for us.

When people say Arteta didnt give Joe chances, they mean that he didnt get a sustained run in the team in his favoured position. Arteta used him as a utility player often throwing him on at the end of the game in a random position. He wasn't getting multiple starts in a row in the league despite the fact we were crying out for someone with his skillset. Most people including myself were in favour of him going on loan not because we didnt think he deserved chances but because it was clear he wasn't going to get any.

I'm repeating myself here but Eddie had had just over 400 minute in the league, the majority of them off the bench when we were playing without a CAM. When you look at the game time Willian has got this season, no one can reasonably argue that either Willock or Nketiah had has a fair chance this season under Arteta. Young players need a sustained run in the team to grow and adapt. One meh game and they don't get back in. Meanwhile the experienced ones can have as many off days as they like.

Martinelli has a quiet game yesterday and I would bet any money that as a result he won't start Wednesday. Exact same problem.

 

[samspade]

Have to pretty vehemently disagree, we are not looking for a goal scoring midfielder because we play a pure 10 in a 4-2-3-1. The two simply must be disciplined, we require Partey to clean up and resist pressure and we require the umbilical cord from defence to midfield that is xhaka. The only way to convincingly incorporate midfielders who can can get forward and score is to play a 4-3-3 with two 8’s as with high enough quality 8’s we can sustain possession from a higher base and they can swap and combine with the front three in a more fluid fashion. An 8 of that quality Joe willock is not. I challenge you to look at European football and find midfielders who can score goals and control games on the regular, they’re rare and most of them are at city. If we ever move in that direction it’s probably the far future and I’d bet against it being Joe Willock as he’s slack in possession, does not move the ball quick enough and does not have particularly good vision.

 

[AberGooner]

Have to pretty vehemently disagree, we are not looking for a goal scoring midfielder because we play a pure 10 in a 4-2-3-1. The two simply must be disciplined, we require Partey to clean up and resist pressure and we require the umbilical cord from defence to midfield that is xhaka. The only way to convincingly incorporate midfielders who can can get forward and score is to play a 4-3-3 with two 8’s as with high enough quality 8’s we can sustain possession from a higher base and they can swap and combine with the front three in a more fluid fashion. An 8 of that quality Joe willock is not. I challenge you to look at European football and find midfielders who can score goals and control games on the regular, they’re rare and most of them are at city. If we ever move in that direction it’s probably the far future and I’d bet against it being Joe Willock as he’s slack in possession, does not move the ball quick enough and does not have particularly good vision.

I pretty much disagree with all of that mate but I'd ge repeating myself by going over and over it. Everyone is entitled to their opinions though. I've seen enough of the lad both at Arsenal and since he's been on loan at Newcastle to know he's going to be a quality player. I also understand that a lot of fans love a shiny new signing though and that's fair as well.

 

[samspade]

I pretty much disagree with all of that mate but I'd ge repeating myself by going over and over it. Everyone is entitled to their opinions though. I've seen enough of the lad both at Arsenal and since he's been on loan at Newcastle to know he's going to be a quality player. I also understand that a lot of fans love a shiny new signing though and that's fair as well.

I love seeing academy players go through and I’d love to see Joe prove me wrong, he seems a nice lad too, I’m not someone who gets particularly hyped over new signings, I’d much prefer to see academy lads do the business. Agree to disagree, I just don’t think Joe’s it.

 

[AberGooner]

I love seeing academy players go through and I’d love to see Joe prove me wrong, he seems a nice lad too, I’m not someone who gets particularly hyped over new signings, I’d much prefer to see academy lads do the business. Agree to disagree, I just don’t think Joe’s it.

Who knows you may be proved right as well of course over time. I just don't like the idea of us chucking talent away without giving them a proper chance.

 

[BigPoppaPump]

Willock got his run here and everybody said he wasn't good enough for us. Using hindsight to say it was a mistake to loan him out is ludicrous.

Even me who’s harsh on players rated Willock and wanted him to be given more chances.

 

[gunner4lyfe]

I dont think Joe got a good run this season and even when he was played it was as a 10 which we all know he isnt.

 

[dashsnow17]

Willock is a real head scratcher. I'd say right now there's no correct or incorrect opinion on him, we just don't know. He's really good at some things, and just not doing other things at all. It's equally legitimate to say "we need him to do the things he's really good at" and also "he's not doing basic necessary things and he doesn't have the all-round skill set to play here, so let him go".

 

[Red London]

Willock is a real head scratcher. I'd say right now there's no correct or incorrect opinion on him, we just don't know. He's really good at some things, and just not doing other things at all. It's equally legitimate to say "we need him to do the things he's really good at" and also "he's not doing basic necessary things and he doesn't have the all-round skill set to play here, so let him go".

In my opinion a club like Arsenal have much bigger fish to fry. The only way I see space for Willock here, is if we move to a 433. Otherwise it's just going to be a conundrum fitting in him. We know what will happen, he won't play much and his hype will falter. He will go from having a bidding for for him (between 15-25m) to being a 10m player.

I just think his skill set suits other clubs better. I would like to see him given game time here if we move to a 433 though, and we will need the numbers in midfield regardless.

 

[GoonerJay24]

In my opinion a club like Arsenal have much bigger fish to fry. The only way I see space for Willock here, is if we move to a 433. Otherwise it's just going to be a conundrum fitting in him. We know what will happen, he won't play much and his hype will falter. He will go from having a bidding for for him (between 15-25m) to being a 10m player.

I just think his skill set suits other clubs better. I would like to see him given game time here if we move to a 433 though, and we will need the numbers in midfield regardless.

I think Willock could easily play in a 4231 or 442 also, but depends on the tactical dynamics set up by Mikel or another coach.

 

[MutableEarth]

I think there's way more to come from Willock as a passer, I think the bigger issue is the lack of touches on the ball - which is why he has so few progressive passes. If he solves the former, the latter will take care of itself.

I've seen a lot of Willock from U18s to now and he can pass the ball very well - he was originally a playmaker if you can believe that. It's a matter of experience IMO, something I think a longer loan should take care of. I've been saying that I think he should be playing more where Shelvey plays, or at least should be getting more of the ball than he is. I think it would be very hasty to sell now, that's another we'll regret.

 

[Iceman10]

I think there's way more to come from Willock as a passer, I think the bigger issue is the lack of touches on the ball - which is why he has so few progressive passes. If he solves the former, the latter will take care of itself.

I've seen a lot of Willock from U18s to now and he can pass the ball very well - he was originally a playmaker if you can believe that. It's a matter of experience IMO, something I think a longer loan should take care of. I've been saying that I think he should be playing more where Shelvey plays, or at least should be getting more of the ball than he is. I think it would be very hasty to sell now, that's another we'll regret.

Don't think we will sell, but he has won an unofficial competition with AMN, especially as RB is not for Ainsley, and additionally because we probably don't have a choice not to cash in on one of them, no matter what manager/owners might say.

 

[MutableEarth]

Don't think we will sell, but he has won an unofficial competition with AMN, especially as RB is not for Ainsley, and additionally because we probably don't have a choice not to cash in on one of them, no matter what manager/owners might say.

There's a scenario in which we cash in on both of them. I can see all of AMN, Nketiah, Nelson and Willock going this summer which would disappoint me greatly. I await the Summer to see what happens with Willock.