Kai Havertz: Hav Some Of That

[RunTheTrap]

Why? Is it because you believe that off-the-ball play is overrated as a measure or that you don’t think Kai hasn’t particularly succeeded in that?

Off-the-ball play is not overrated, it doesn't excite me but I see its value. However, if your game is based on that then you must be efficient when the ball comes to you. Ramsey and Walcott were off-the-ball footballers and they both had good to world-class G/A numbers in some seasons. If Kai has elite potential as some of you so vehemently claim then I'm expecting Kai to put up similar numbers. As of now, he has disappointed me.

 

[db10_therza]

The thing is…

Havertz might turn it around in a year and be ok/decent.

But that would still make it a **** transfer given how much the outlay was. For that kind of money you should be contributing within a couple months at most. The stans can’t bring themselves to admit it though. This wasn’t a gamble on potential and let them cook for a year Fabio Vieira type signing.

In fact I don’t see them putting any kind of time limit on their predictions that he’ll come good. They’re just vague open ended statements…

Seeing stuff about how his talent is obvious etc. Quaresma had more talent than just about any footballer I’ve ever seen. Don’t mean jack brev.

Just to be clear - I have nothing against Havertz. I think he’ll be okay in the end because I think Arteta is a pretty good coach. But that doesn’t mean I can’t readily admit it was a **** transfer. Coz it was

 

[drippin]

The thing is…

Havertz might turn it around in a year and be ok/decent.

But that would still make it a **** transfer given how much the outlay was. For that kind of money you should be contributing within a couple months at most. The stans can’t bring themselves to admit it though. This wasn’t a gamble on potential and let them cook for a year Fabio Vieira type signing.

In fact I don’t see them putting any kind of time limit on their predictions that he’ll come good. They’re just vague open ended statements…

Seeing stuff about how his talent is obvious etc. Quaresma had more talent than just about any footballer I’ve ever seen. Don’t mean jack brev.

Just to be clear - I have nothing against Havertz. I think he’ll be okay in the end because I think Arteta is a pretty good coach. But that doesn’t mean I can’t readily admit it was a **** transfer. Coz it was

I have very clearly said Havertz needs at least 6 months to properly judge him, while all players coming from other leagues should get at least 12 months. Take note of the word properly.

This is because Havertz is learning back to midfield position, which is also different than the AMF position he played at Leverkusen years back, because it's Arteta's LCM role. Not coming to a new league, so he is already adjusted in that sense. So 6 months looks like okay time frame.

I think it's very fair to give him more than a few games before proclaiming he is a flop or something. It's not that hard to understand how much different it's to play striker in horrible Chelsea tactics last year vs. LCM in Arteta's tactics.

Why compare to Quaresma, who is also a winger? His problems were not similar as Havertz, who mostly has confidence problems as far as I know?

And there you go, ending it as knowing it was a **** transfer already. There was no one else with a similar profile on the market who was EPL proven/adjusted. Arteta wanted a target man, and likely wants another to the striker role in the future.

 

[GDeep™]

I have very clearly said Havertz needs at least 6 months to properly judge him, while all players coming from other leagues should get at least 12 months.

This is because Havertz is learning back to midfield position, which is also different than the AMF position he played at Leverkusen years back, because it's Arteta's LCM role. Not coming to a new league, so he is already adjusted in that sense.

I think it's very fair to give him more than a few games before proclaiming he is a flop or something. It's not that hard to understand how much different it's to play striker in horrible Chelsea tactics last year vs. LCM in Arteta's tactics.

Why compare to Quaresma, who is also a winger? His problems were not similar as Havertz, who mostly has confidence problems as far as I know?

And there you go, ending it as knowing it was a **** transfer already. There was no one else with a similar profile on the market who was EPL proven/adjusted.

How do you judge Havertz only has confidence problems? To me it looks like he has a position problem. He can’t have confidence issues for the last 3 years.

Master of no position.

 

[drippin]

How do you judge Havertz only has confidence problems? To me it looks like he has a position problem. He can’t have confidence issues for the last 3 years.

Master of no position.

I didn't say "only", I said mostly. And the point was that Quaresma's problems are not related to confidence, or even position, like you say.

How are they comparable in their problems?

 

[db10_therza]

Why compare to Quaresma, who is also a winger? His problems were not similar as Havertz, who mostly has confidence problems as far as I know?

The comparison was just to make the general point that talent is not the be all or end all of anything in football.

And there you go, ending it as knowing it was a **** transfer already. There was no one else with a similar profile on the market who was EPL proven/adjusted. Arteta wanted a target man, and likely wants another to the striker role.

Yeah I think it’s a **** transfer because even 6 months imo is too long an adjustment for a first team player. Even from another league tbh. We cannot carry someone for 6 months, I don’t understand why this is so hard to grasp. If our requirements were for such a unicorn player that only one existed then I would say the tactical set up that required such a unicorn needs a rethink. Because hunting unicorns is not a sustainable tactic.

Whatever way you slice it it’s a crap transfer

 

[drippin]

The comparison was just to make the general point that talent is not the be all or end all of anything in football.

Okay, fair enough. No one will disagree about that.

Yeah I think it’s a **** transfer because even 6 months imo is too long an adjustment for a first team player. Even from another league tbh. We cannot carry someone for 6 months, I don’t understand why this is so hard to grasp. If our requirements were for such a unicorn player that only one existed then I would say the tactical set up that required such a unicorn needs a rethink. Because hunting unicorns is not a sustainable tactic.

Whatever way you slice it it’s a crap transfer

The biggest point in Havertz was always that he is a target man who can play AMF & false 9. Btw. it was fun when AM told us that Havertz is bad at aerial duels. I'm not sure how to explain how important this option to play long without likely losing possession is for Arteta after Xhaka was gone. And even otherwise as Xhaka wasn't as high up the field as often I think.

This is why I assume he will go for either Toney or Osimhen to get one more target man, and have that option on the field all the time, to evade high press. Pretty sure Arteta hates losing possession.

The other options from EPL were Mount and Maddison. Neither is a target man. Neither is as versatile as Havertz. Versatility is very important for keeping many top players happy with game-time. Maddison has been injury-prone, and isn't as good defensively or workrate as Havertz. There is already Ødegaard, Vieira and ESR. By opting for EPL proven players, you make it much more likely that they perform faster.

Xhaka last season had 7+7 in EPL. It's not that difficult for Havertz to do that. He could have a goal, assist and a penalty already. The team doesn't have to carry him if he gets even those Xhaka numbers, as we have already seen that his other stats are quite comparable to Xhaka.

 

[1macca1]

If the squad is strong enough to not be exposed during his bedding in period then I don’t think immediate impact is what is needed for this to turn out to be a decent signing. There’s effort and there looks to be some talent to go along with his versatility of position and tactical flexibility offering. I would have thought that more often than not that would be enough for a player to come good.

 

[Xln]

I thought he had a modestly better match than the total cr.p he has been. Then i looked at his match stats. 27 passes, Ode had 70, he is hiding and not showing for ball. He is on the periphery of all the successful attacks and not really involved. 19 competitive matches with Zero goals playing most of those matches at striker. It is hilarious Tet backers crying I don’t give Arteta credit for acquisitions. He buys like ETH or worse, he should not even be allowed to give a name. His contribution to transfers should be like this, “i want a left fullback”. Thanks now go back to the training pitch Mik

I don't like the Havertz buy either but at least what I can say in his defense is that having 2 types of Ødegaard in the same squad would put the balance off. Like he does not make the runs Havertz does for a reason, it's tactical.

But yes still like you said the guy needs to start being more dominant and play with confidence. He has to score the way he is set up otherwise we might as well put ESR there for making plays.

 

[Xln]

AM sh1tting on Havertz is a good thing. Means he will score in the NLD and shut us up for 2 games again.

 

[db10_therza]

I don't like the Havertz buy either but at least what I can say in his defense is that having 2 types of Ødegaard in the same squad would put the balance off. Like he does not make the runs Havertz does for a reason, it's tactical.

But yes still like you said the guy needs to start being more dominant and play with confidence. He has to score the way he is set up otherwise we might as well put ESR there for making plays.

Idk I think too much is being made of Madison and Ødegaard being too similar. For starters Maddison prefers the left half space being a right footer. And I think the tactical coaching required to make Maddison a left 8 in our system is much less than what it will take to make Havertz a left 8.

And then we also have the benefit that madderz would provide creative cover for Ødegaard. From a squad building perspective it just makes so much sense. Right now if Ode gets injured we’re pretty fkd, no one in the whole squad can match his creativity and control. Vieira maybe has the end product but I really can’t see him holding it down by himself anytime soon. But Maddison could. He also has great set piece delivery, again something we don’t seem to have in our entire squad. Whenever we get a free kick in a dangerous position I get up to make a tea and check my mail fs.

Was a massive miss. And having to see him turn out for Sp**s ffs.

 

[drippin]

He has to score the way he is set up otherwise we might as well put ESR there for making plays.

That's the point though isn't it. Was Xhaka the goal scorer last season? No he wasn't. He had 7+7 in EPL, which was very nice.

But Havertz does a lot what I can't just assume with no proper evidence that ESR can at LCM. That is workrate without getting injured and all those defensive duties.

Havertz has to contribute like Xhaka in attacking numbers, but we can't just put ESR there and expect Arsenal would win these games, when there is no proof he can do what Havertz has done even thus far.

I love ESR, but he wasn't very good in the AMF role yet. He is similar or better finisher from what we have seen, but that's not the main area that the LCM has to do. The attackers score clearly the most.

 

[drippin]

Idk I think too much is being made of Madison and Ødegaard being too similar. For starters Maddison prefers the left half space being a right footer. And I think the tactical coaching required to make Maddison a left 8 in our system is much less than what it will take to make Havertz a left 8.

And then we also have the benefit that madderz would provide creative cover for Ødegaard. From a squad building perspective it just makes so much sense. Right now if Ode gets injured we’re pretty fkd, no one in the whole squad can match his creativity and control. Vieira maybe has the end product but I really can’t see him holding it down by himself anytime soon. But Maddison could. He also has great set piece delivery, again something we don’t seem to have in our entire squad. Whenever we get a free kick in a dangerous position I get up to make a tea and check my mail fs.

Was a massive miss. And having to see him turn out for Sp**s ffs.

Again, you didn't answer to me about Maddison or Mount as the EPL proven options.

Maddison is not a target man, and he can't switch to false 9 role inside the match. Can't play winger either for Arteta. He has been quite injury-prone. He is older. He is not as good defensively and doesn't have similar work rate as Havertz.

Arsenal already has ESR and Vieira, who also are not as good defensively as Havertz. Great player, but no sense in getting Maddison for Arsenal. For Chelsea, absolutely, but they're stupid nowadays.

 

[db10_therza]

Again, you didn't answer to me about Maddison or Mount as the EPL proven options.

Maddison is not a target man, and he can't switch to false 9 role inside the match. Can't play winger either for Arteta. He has been quite injury-prone. He is older. He is not as good defensively and doesn't have similar work rate as Havertz.

Arsenal already has ESR and Vieira, who also are not as good defensively as Havertz. Great player, but no sense in getting Maddison for Arsenal. For Chelsea, absolutely, but they're stupid.

Us “needing” a target man that can’t pass and has no creativity is a requirement that you’ve foisted on this discussion. I don’t subscribe to it so I don’t need to justify it.

You’re just listing stuff that Havertz is better than Maddison at. Defensive stuff etc. You know what Maddison is better than Havertz at? Everything else. Football. He is just better at football.

And fwiw you also completely sidestepped my point about how Maddison could cover Odegaards role in case he god-forbid gets injured.

And for the cherry on top he cost 25m less than Havertz.

But yeah. “Duels” etc. I know.

 

[drippin]

Us “needing” a target man that can’t pass and has no creativity is a requirement that you’ve foisted on this discussion. I don’t subscribe to it so I don’t need to justify it.

You’re just listing stuff that Havertz is better than Maddison at. Defensive stuff etc. You know what Maddison is better than Havertz at? Everything else. Football. He is just better at football.

And fwiw you also completely sidestepped my point about how Maddison could cover Odegaards role in case he god-forbid gets injured.

And for the cherry on top he cost 25m less than Havertz.

But yeah. “Duels” etc. I know.

Maddison is about 2,5 years older, so that 25 million difference should be settled already at that. Maddison also has been injury-prone which should alter his value. He is worth less for the club, if he is injured.

I think it's a fact that Arteta wants and needs target men. What are your counter arguments to that? He got one in Havertz already, and got Raya who is a better passer than Ramsdale. This is about keeping possession, even under high press, and possibly launching long balls to create dangerous counter-attacks. Personally for the next one I'd like Toney or Osimhen. Two target attackers in the squad is okay, so you can have one on the field at any time.

Ødegaard and Havertz have different roles in the squad. I could see Maddison more in the Ødegaard role, being the focal point of the attacking midfield. He is the star player of Tottenham now. Ødegaard is better than Maddison, and younger. I took Ødegaard for half the price against Maddison at the time, and I'd take Ødegaard any given sunday over Maddison especially now, no matter how good player Maddison is.

I can't see Arteta going with Rice-Maddison-Ødegaard midfield in many matches, it's too attacking. Ødegaard can defend, but you don't want him so low very much with his lethality in front of goal. You don't also want to break that attacking Ødegaard-Saka axis.

Havertz has surprised me how good he is in defensive department. I said I wouldn't like to see Zinchenko-Havertz on the left (compare with Zinchenko-Xhaka) against tougher opponents, but Havertz can do similar work as a striker with his pressing and defensive contribution it seems. He has brought his striker defensive stats to the LCM role, because he compares well with Xhaka last season.

But yeah, I'm not going to argue more about Havertz when only a few games have passed, and he had possibly one of his best games for Arsenal against PSV. He has to do better, but this is also a ridiculous time frame to make any conclusions about.

 

[db10_therza]

Maddison is about 2,5 years older, so that 25 million difference should be settled already at that. Maddison also has been injury-prone which should alter his value. He is worth less for the club, if he is injured.

I think it's a fact that Arteta wants and needs target men. What are your counter arguments to that? He got one in Havertz already, and got Raya who is a better passer than Ramsdale. This is about keeping possession, even under high press, and possibly launching long balls to create dangerous counter-attacks. Personally for the next one I'd like Toney or Osimhen. Two target attackers in the squad is okay, so you can have one on the field at any time.

Ødegaard and Havertz have different roles in the squad. I could see Maddison more in the Ødegaard role, being the focal point of the attacking midfield. He is the star player of Tottenham now. Ødegaard is better than Maddison, and younger. I took Ødegaard for half the price against Maddison at the time, and I'd take Ødegaard any given sunday over Maddison especially now, no matter how good player Maddison is.

I can't see Arteta going with Rice-Maddison-Ødegaard midfield in many matches, it's too attacking. Ødegaard can defend, but you don't want him so low very much with his lethality in front of goal.

Havertz has surprised me how good he is in defensive department. I said I wouldn't like to see Zinchenko-Havertz on the left (compare with Zinchenko-Xhaka) against tougher opponents, but Havertz can do similar work as a striker with his pressing and defensive contribution it seems.

But yeah, I'm not going to argue more about Havertz when only a few games have passed, and he had possibly one of his best games for Arsenal against PSV. He has to do better, but this is also a ridiculous time frame to make any conclusions about.

This is pretty balanced coming from you. I respect it but I don’t agree with it. We’ll compare notes in 3-4 months I guess.

 

[drippin]

This is pretty balanced coming from you. I respect it but I don’t agree with it. We’ll compare notes in 3-4 months I guess.

There is no question I wouldn't have wanted either Maddison or Ødegaard at the time. I just thought Ødegaard is much better deal for half the price, and not being as injury-prone as Maddison looked like at the time.

Maddison was an amazing deal for Tottenham. I'm happy for my cousin. Maddison could have gone to Chelsea, and I just hate Chelsea. So I'm pretty happy too. Imagine missing on Maddison just because he is "too old", when you don't have Ødegaard already.

I would still choose Havertz over Maddison for Arsenal's squad needs. It's not that I would rate Havertz above Maddison at their current level, but for me the fit is much better in tactical and harmony sense. And Havertz has 2,5 years to reach Maddison current level.

 

[RunTheTrap]

There is no question I wouldn't have wanted either Maddison or Ødegaard at the time. I just thought Ødegaard is much better deal for half the price, and not being as injury-prone as Maddison looked like at the time.

Maddison was an amazing deal for Tottenham. I'm happy for my cousin. Maddison could have gone to Chelsea, and I just hate Chelsea. So I'm pretty happy too. Imagine missing on Maddison just because he is "too old", when you don't have Ødegaard already.

I would still choose Havertz over Maddison for Arsenal's squad needs. It's not that I would rate Havertz above Maddison at their current level, but for me the fit is much better in tactical and harmony sense. And Havertz has 2,5 years to reach Maddison current level.

I don't see Havertz putting up 10 league goals in a relegation-threatened side.

Anyways Havertz vs Maddison shouldn't be the debate. It should be Havertz vs. Szoboszlai.

Szoboszlai: name sounds like a 007 villain, XY chromosome, strong jawline, looks like a cross between a Disney Prince and a Chad, elite ball-striking, can grow a beard, fast, tall and most importantly a good footballer.

Now compare that to Havertz:

Weak, gangly, can only perform when he feels confident, easily triggered, snowflake, thinks rap music is misogynistic, no facial hair, low muscle density, believes “gender isn't real”, vegan and ghosts in and out matches.

 

[Macho]

The thing is I don’t think Havertz minutes to date warrants this much convo.

I will see what he’s saying in Jan.

 

[drippin]

Now compare that to Havertz:

Weak, gangly, can only perform when he feels confident, easily triggered, snowflake, thinks rap music is misogynistic, no facial hair, low muscle density, believes “gender isn't real”, vegan and ghosts in and out matches.

My first question is are these two claims true? Is there some proof? Then I can answer.