Kai Havertz: HavHurts

Rasmi

Prophet of Doom

Country: England
No one is saying we have to accept Havertz. Almost everyone agrees we need another CF to help us. What some are saying is there no is no point getting another CF who isn't clearly better than him.

Sesko falls into that category. He has a lot of potential but right now I doubt he is even an upgrade on Kai. And Havertz is far from thrash. He is a decent player with some clear weaknesses but is much better than actual "thrash" like Zirkzee, Fullkrug, Malen etc that you was salivating over to replace Havertz but instead we would have been worse off.

Would break the bank for Isak but doubt Newcastle will let him go. I would rather go back for Watkins than go For Sesko. The time for waiting for potential has passed us, we need a striker who is proven and in their prime.
Nonsense. Sesko is easily better footballer than havertz who can’t do a single thing on his own. The nonsense only few strikers are better than havertz has to stop. He is being carried by his teammates and is a poor striker. In fact he’s not a striker. I would take easily take Stansted ahead of him and he plays in the 3rd division
 

Hleb's Sirush

Established Member
Nonsense. Sesko is easily better footballer than havertz who can’t do a single thing on his own. The nonsense only few strikers are better than havertz has to stop. He is being carried by his teammates and is a poor striker. In fact he’s not a striker. I would take easily take Stansted ahead of him and he plays in the 3rd division
You always think every player is better than our current ones. Did you watch Sesko in the Euros? Same weaknesses as Havertz. Doesn't look clinical at all. Watch the two golden chances he had against Portugal to put his country through only to shoot weakly at the GK with the whole goal to aim at. His goals stats aren't elite in general anyway.

Yes Havertz isn't a natural striker but he has a decent scoring rate so you can stop the hyperbole about taking a 3rd division player over him.
 

Rasmi

Prophet of Doom

Country: England
You always think every player is better than our current ones. Did you watch Sesko in the Euros? Same weaknesses as Havertz. Doesn't look clinical at all. Watch the two golden chances he had against Portugal to put his country through only to shoot weakly at the GK with the whole goal to aim at. His goals stats aren't elite in general anyway.

Yes Havertz isn't a natural striker but he has a decent scoring rate so you can stop the hyperbole about taking a 3rd division player over him.


Havertz has never played this well for us and this is Sesko having shocker. Again he’s way better footballer than havertz. He can actually dribble past a defender
 

Farzad

Whistleblower rights activist & PhD in Karenology

Country: USA

Player:Havertz
The fact is people who keep saying Arsenal can’t do better than Kai are crazy. And not just do better but buy any one of at least 20 strikers in the market, at least that are better or sill be better soon. I frankly can’t think of worse strikeforce on any top 10 or 15 teams in Europe. Kai and Jesus are easy upgrades you can if you buy late in contract players like Dortmund did with Guirassy for 18 million you can easily upgrade
 

Hleb's Sirush

Established Member


Havertz has never played this well for us and this is Sesko having shocker. Again he’s way better footballer than havertz. He can actually dribble past a defender

A few times in 120 minutes of football where he held up the ball or won some duels and you think he played well. If Havertz missed those chances but won a few duels like him you would have lambasted him. "He is there to score goals" but Sesko can fluff the major chances but you are happy he won some duels. We don't need more of the same. Isak would be the dream but I would take Gyokores, Watkins and Osi before him. Sesko I would take if we get another striker in.

Watch at 1:58 and 4:05. Those are the kind of chances you can't afford to miss and that we need from an upgrade on Havertz. Not for your main finisher to **** his pants when it arrives.
 

Iwobeast

Established Member

Country: Netherlands

Player:Ødegaard
A few times in 120 minutes of football where he held up the ball or won some duels and you think he played well. If Havertz missed those chances but won a few duels like him you would have lambasted him. "He is there to score goals" but Sesko can fluff the major chances but you are happy he won some duels. We don't need more of the same. Isak would be the dream but I would take Gyokores, Watkins and Osi before him. Sesko I would take if we get another striker in.

Watch at 1:58 and 4:05. Those are the kind of chances you can't afford to miss and that we need from an upgrade on Havertz. Not for your main finisher to **** his pants when it arrives.


At least Sesko will keep defenders busy and give them something to think about because he actually provides a threat upfront. He can run in behind, he can dribble past players, he can blast one in from outside the box, he can finish with both feet. And most important he is not scared to take a shot. All stuff that Kai can't do.

I can forgive missed chances. All I ask is at least some threat upfront, Kai is way too easy to defend.
 

Hleb's Sirush

Established Member
Šeško is still raw, he is definitely big potential who needs polishing.
But his finishing stats seem very good to me.

Benjamin Sesko | RasenBallsport Leipzig | xG | Shot Map | Goal stats | Understat.com

According to this, he has scored 23 goals from xg =14.41, which is very good for so young and raw player.
These data cover 51 match he played for Leipzig in last 18 months.
I wanted him last summer when we were linked to him. At that stage he was perfect for us. But for next season we need the finished article as we really have to win either the PL or CL. Sesko is still too raw for me. So much to like about him but some parts of his game you can see he hasn't developed yet. The pressure to lead for Arsenal when we really need to win a major trophy can crush promising but still raw striker. I'm not completely against him but too many question marks for me to take that risk.
 

Riou

🎵 Riouce Riouce Baby 🎶

Country: Northern Ireland
I don't want to watch Havertz as our starting striker anymore, and I don't think the board care about winning the big two trophies nor do I think Arteta is good enough to win them either anymore.

Don't think there is many top.class and proven CF right now, so will take Sesko happily at this point even if he isn't elite...the above paragraph being considered, I just want a new forward now.
 

Red London

Anti-Simp Culture
Šeško is still raw, he is definitely big potential who needs polishing.
But his finishing stats seem very good to me.

Benjamin Sesko | RasenBallsport Leipzig | xG | Shot Map | Goal stats | Understat.com

According to this, he has scored 23 goals from xg =14.41, which is very good for so young and raw player.
These data cover 51 match he played for Leipzig in last 18 months.
How does the data work though? If he scores a few disgusting long shots (which he seems capable of doing), doesn’t it skew the statistics a little bit in terms of his finishing in the penalty and 6 yard area (ultimately the type of chances he will be getting here as there won’t be any space).
 

HattoriHanzo

Established Member

Country: Croatia
How does the data work though? If he scores a few disgusting long shots (which he seems capable of doing), doesn’t it skew the statistics a little bit in terms of his finishing in the penalty and 6 yard area (ultimately the type of chances he will be getting here as there won’t be any space).
This is his overall stats.
He has scored more goals (24) than he should have according to chances he had (famous xg).
Don't ask me how they calculate xg, they use some statistics database etc.

Here is the example of proven elite goalscorer.
Harry Kane | Bayern Munich | xG | Shot Map | Goal stats | Understat.com
267 goals from xg=233.79 in 11 seasons, consistent in 10 of them (only in season 2021/22 he scored less than he should have)

And this is what we have now.
Kai Havertz | Arsenal | xG | Shot Map | Goal stats | Understat.com
He was actually good before Chelsea, in Chelsea he was horrible, last season he was in line (he has scored as expected), he regressed this season.
It is exactly what he is, good footballer, not prolific goalscorer.
Which is not strange because he has become striker 15 months ago when Arteta converted him to this position.
 
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HattoriHanzo

Established Member

Country: Croatia
I wanted him last summer when we were linked to him. At that stage he was perfect for us. But for next season we need the finished article as we really have to win either the PL or CL. Sesko is still too raw for me. So much to like about him but some parts of his game you can see he hasn't developed yet. The pressure to lead for Arsenal when we really need to win a major trophy can crush promising but still raw striker. I'm not completely against him but too many question marks for me to take that risk.
I share your opinion completely.
Arsenal board made terrible mistake last summer when they failed to bring attacker (I don't count washed Sterling), and that mistake became criminal negligence this January after injuries to Saka and G. Jesus.
Seems that they have put all eggs in one basket which is very risky.

Šeško has all the tools to become elite, I don't know if he can do it immediately next season.
It is also not 100% certain that he will come to Arsenal.
 

HattoriHanzo

Established Member

Country: Croatia
I'm not bothered with how many he scored, when there are Saka, Ode, Partey, Trossard, and Rice on the team, it's expected that he will score goals, and worse players than him would score goals.

The trouble for us is as soon as someone is missing or being off form (Saka, Ode), Havertz is beyond useless. He doesn't have anything to offer other than putting the ball in the net from a high volume of chances. That's still fine, but not a title winning quality where forwards are expected to do much more, and he struggles when the volume of chances is low.

The alternative to all this is to drastically improve on the left wing and share the load across the forward line, in that case having Havertz would be ok-ish
Havertz is ok as backup striker, not ok as the main man in title winning team.
Problem is that he is paid as the main man.
 

Rasmi

Prophet of Doom

Country: England
At least Sesko will keep defenders busy and give them something to think about because he actually provides a threat upfront. He can run in behind, he can dribble past players, he can blast one in from outside the box, he can finish with both feet. And most important he is not scared to take a shot. All stuff that Kai can't do.

I can forgive missed chances. All I ask is at least some threat upfront, Kai is way too easy to defend.
Exactly this. Fed up with people who throws stats up. The guy offers zero threat because he can’t dribble past anyone or even run with the ball. That performance vs Newcastle is the worst performance I seen of an arsenal player on the ball. It was embarrassing
 

Hleb's Sirush

Established Member
At least Sesko will keep defenders busy and give them something to think about because he actually provides a threat upfront. He can run in behind, he can dribble past players, he can blast one in from outside the box, he can finish with both feet. And most important he is not scared to take a shot. All stuff that Kai can't do.

I can forgive missed chances. All I ask is at least some threat upfront, Kai is way too easy to defend.
The whole point of upgrading on Havertz is to score more goals not to 'keep defenders busy'. We have Martinelli for that. In fact he does exactly all the things you mentioned except score enough. When Havertz was giving the likes of Konate a torrid time I remember people saying he is a nightmare to play against but we need finishers. If all you ask for is a threat upfront then I'm afraid that isn't enough to win a title.
 

Rasmi

Prophet of Doom

Country: England
The whole point of upgrading on Havertz is to score more goals not to 'keep defenders busy'. We have Martinelli for that. In fact he does exactly all the things you mentioned except score enough. When Havertz was giving the likes of Konate a torrid time I remember people saying he is a nightmare to play against but we need finishers. If all you ask for is a threat upfront then I'm afraid that isn't enough to win a title.
It’s easier to score goals for Arsenal than leipzig. Right now their goal scoring is similar while Sesko is clearly on the up and is about to explode. This whole argument is identical to Isak and how some people couldn’t see how good he was and about to explode. You buy players on talent and attributes
 

Tnegs

Well-Known Member
It’s easier to score goals for Arsenal than leipzig. Right now their goal scoring is similar while Sesko is clearly on the up and is about to explode. This whole argument is identical to Isak and how some people couldn’t see how good he was and about to explode. You buy players on talent and attributes
It’s not like there are many better and more affordable options out there. Šeško is young enough with the potential to become elite and he’s within our price range this should be an easy decision. We aren’t going to get a ready made 20 league goals a season striker because they are too rare and expensive so we will have to take our chances and make calculated gambles on potential.
 

Hleb's Sirush

Established Member
It’s easier to score goals for Arsenal than leipzig. Right now their goal scoring is similar while Sesko is clearly on the up and is about to explode. This whole argument is identical to Isak and how some people couldn’t see how good he was and about to explode. You buy players on talent and attributes
There is always a risk involved with young players with a lot of potential. Some fulfil it, most don't. So it depends how patient we can be. Like I said before Sesko would have been perfect last summer. Would get time to quietly develop but next season any striker we bring in will have huge responsibility. If we don't win anything this season then it becomes even more vital we win something next season. Hence why I don't think we as a fan base will have the patient for anyone who isn't ready to hit the ground running. You certainly won't and will be asking to sell him after he doesn't score in 3 or 4 games.
 

Rasmi

Prophet of Doom

Country: England
There is always a risk involved with young players with a lot of potential. Some fulfil it, most don't. So it depends how patient we can be. Like I said before Sesko would have been perfect last summer. Would get time to quietly develop but next season any striker we bring in will have huge responsibility. If we don't win anything this season then it becomes even more vital we win something next season. Hence why I don't think we as a fan base will have the patient for anyone who isn't ready to hit the ground running. You certainly won't and will be asking to sell him after he doesn't score in 3 or 4 games.
So I haven’t asked for havertz to be sold, but I will ask for Sesko to be sold after 4 games if he doesn’t score 3 goals?
 

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