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Kai Havertz: No More Mr Nice Kai

Will Kai prove to be a Xhaka upgrade?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

PrinzPoldi

Active Member

Country: USA

Player:Havertz
if the numbers still the same, why not show us the MATH DIFFERENCE of 73 divide by 6 and 73 divide by 5.5 ?
let's do elementary school Math class here
is the average still 12 ? or has it changed to 13 something?

Also, why does everyone else, Cristiano Ronaldo & Messi included are counted by all competition goals but in Arsenal, our players are counted only league goals ? Heck, ****ing Pele has friendlies and other matches included in his goal tally, that's why he is on 1,276 goals.

105 goals all competitions divided by 5.5 seasons = 19.09 goals per season

Also using your matrix, you said an average of 12 premier league goals per season is not good, do you know who has an average of 12 premier league goals per season?
it's Robin van Persie (96 premier league goals / 8 seasons)

And you know who has 12 goals all competition on average playing for Arsenal ? Lukas Podolski.
I am not gonna be an ass and use only his league goals.
I used league games and goals because that how I set the parameter in the discussion to respond to King Farzad.
 

Farzad Stoned

Self-appointed Deprogrammer for the Cult of Mik 🟥

Country: USA

Player:Havertz
Surely @Farzad Stoned can't be saying that somehow these 10 players are winning in spite of the manager...but when the team plays badly its the manager's fault. Surely!
Without Mik and a real manager we would already be champions of England. Gravy training endless chances and Stan’s money
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
I'm not sure why this chart was made the morning of Newcastle game, and not after the game. Havertz got 1+1 in that game, and Arsenal truly dominated, so it would elevate his stats. Long break afterwards.

I gave Havertz 6 months to adapt to the team & a new role. He made it. He has gotten better and more confident, especially in recent times. Still a lot to improve, but very nice.

Comparing to Xhaka you have to take into account that Xhaka dropped deeper more often I think, so will have more progressive passes etc. These stats look pretty good considering Xhaka is 6 years older and had his best year, while Havertz is having his first year in a new role.

(Btw. what does "pass efficiency" (actual passing rate compared to expected passing rate) mean?)


Another interesting comparison is to Szoboszlai, who I didn't want because he hasn't played as a striker, but only as AMF and RW, and he isn't fit for RW for Arteta.

Szobo has been better than expected in his first season in EPL. The stats are quite equal though, against Havertz in a new role. Szobo has a bit better stats in many areas, but Havertz better non-penalty xG + xA. Especially if you take into account that Szobo gives free kicks & corners, but of course also that Havertz has played a few games as a false 9. 4 games according to Transfermarkt.

Havertz now has a point per 229 in EPL without penalties, while Szoboszlai has a point per 277 minutes.


He is the same age as Nketiah but a target man, so like I said at the time, he will be much more useful versatile player than Nketiah. Nketiah will fetch a nice fee in the summer, straight profit.

It looks like with Jorginho also having a niggle, Havertz was forced to be used only as a LCM in the beginning. He also gradually gave him a chance at false 9, so Nketiah doesn't get angry by Havertz overtaking him instantly.
 

jaystewart

Active Member
who cares he is an attacker and his goal and assists and passing numbers are total garbage for any attacker. So don’t judge his lack of goals because he is a midfielder and don’t look at his cr.p passing because he is really striker. It sounds like people classify him however they can to absolve him.
I'm saying this - if he doesn't get played at striker in the game, how can his numbers be as good as a striker? If you played Haaland at right back, would he score 40 goals a season?
 

Farzad Stoned

Self-appointed Deprogrammer for the Cult of Mik 🟥

Country: USA

Player:Havertz
I'm saying this - if he doesn't get played at striker in the game, how can his numbers be as good as a striker? If you played Haaland at right back, would he score 40 goals a season?
He played at striker at Chelsea and i compared his goals to Giroud because his supporters compared him. I am not the one who even started the Giroud comparison. So what is Kai’s excuse for his passing? Or his 3 years of terrible goal numbers at Chelsea and here. At Chelsea he played mostly striker
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
He played at striker at Chelsea and i compared his goals to Giroud because his supporters compared him. I am not the one who even started the Giroud comparison. So what is Kai’s excuse for his passing? Or his 3 years of terrible goal numbers at Chelsea and here. At Chelsea he played mostly striker
I hope you understand that coming to EPL to play striker for Chelsea, (which he did very little for Leverkusen, 6/118 Bundesliga games according to Transfermarkt) meant that he had to adjust to the toughest league in the world & at the same time to a new position as a 21-year old. EPL CB's are tough.

Giroud came to Arsenal as a 26-year old. Strikers mature later. Even now he is just 24,5 years old so younger than Giroud when he joined Arsenal.
 

Farzad Stoned

Self-appointed Deprogrammer for the Cult of Mik 🟥

Country: USA

Player:Havertz
I hope you understand that coming to EPL to play striker for Chelsea, (which he did very little for Leverkusen, 6/118 Bundesliga games according to Transfermarkt) meant that he had to adjust to the toughest league in the world & at the same time to a new position as a 21-year old. EPL CB's are tough.

Giroud came to Arsenal as a 26-year old. Strikers mature later. Even now he is just 24,5 years old so younger than Giroud when he joined Arsenal.
Yes but Giroud in his youth was not touted and started playing 2nd division French Football and didn’t make a name till his mid twenties at Montpellier. Kai has had 4 years in this league. He isn’t a young prospect any more. He may improve but he needs to improve a lot because as a striker he is far off the level we need as a starter
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
Yes but Giroud in his youth was not touted and started playing 2nd division French Football and didn’t make a name till his mid twenties at Montpellier. Kai has had 4 years in this league. He isn’t a young prospect any more. He may improve but he needs to improve a lot because as a striker he is far off the level we need as a starter
As a false 9 in EPL for Arsenal, he has played 181 minutes according to Transfermarkt. The opponents were City, Liverpool and Newcastle.

He has 1+2 in those games. A point per 60 minutes. Top level output.
 

Farzad Stoned

Self-appointed Deprogrammer for the Cult of Mik 🟥

Country: USA

Player:Havertz
As a false 9 in EPL for Arsenal, he has played 181 minutes according to Transfermarkt. The opponents were City, Liverpool and Newcastle.

He has 1+2 in those games. A point per 60 minutes. Top level output.
Let’s see not much of a sample. To me he is a deficient passer for anywhere in the attack. He is deficient in finishing anywhere you put him in attack. So this whole positional debate is less relevant. But his worst position is attacking midfielder as his terrible passing destroys him and Martinelli.

This is why I don’t buy the versatility arguments. Being versatile means being good and excelling at multiple positions and roles. It doesn’t mean being different levels of poor at multiple positions
 

PrinzPoldi

Active Member

Country: USA

Player:Havertz
Let’s see not much of a sample. To me he is a deficient passer for anywhere in the attack. He is deficient in finishing anywhere you put him in attack. So this whole positional debate is less relevant. But his worst position is attacking midfielder as his terrible passing destroys him and Martinelli.

This is why I don’t buy the versatility arguments. Being versatile means being good and excelling at multiple positions and roles. It doesn’t mean being different levels of poor at multiple positions
Pretty sure you actually did not watch our games.

To say Kai is destroying Martinelli and not having chemistry with him, Arteta's set up is to have Kai to move into the box or interchange with the striker.
His job IS NOT accommodating Martinelli but to get into space to open up everyone.

Even without Kai, Martinelli was also isolated because that's was our setup. To overload our right hand side and left Martinelli open, possibly to leave him one defender to beat.
Marti is not protected and covered by anybody (Xkaha/LCM) like last season anymore.

If you are still staying in last season, wake up and we are in 2023-24 season.
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
Let’s see not much of a sample. To me he is a deficient passer for anywhere in the attack. He is deficient in finishing anywhere you put him in attack. So this whole positional debate is less relevant. But his worst position is attacking midfielder as his terrible passing destroys him and Martinelli.

This is why I don’t buy the versatility arguments. Being versatile means being good and excelling at multiple positions and roles. It doesn’t mean being different levels of poor at multiple positions
Of course it isn't, because basically only now at Arsenal he has played his better role which is a false 9 (or AMF), not a normal striker like I think at Chelsea mostly. Players like Giroud have played the striker position since youth, so it's understandable Havertz needs more time to play that position well in the best league in the world.

I'm not sure why you think he is a deficient passer. His pass completion in EPL is 82% this season. I guess you mean that he hasn't done that many through passes etc.

He can get better with confidence now that he is adjusted to the team, but you clearly fail to understand his role. Ødegaard is the one who makes those passes mostly in midfield. Havertz role is to keep the ball safely with the team, make fast one-two passes, run at space, press and defend hard etc.

It really seems like you don't know much about the player, and just had blind hate since the beginning. While it looks more and more that us who knew the player, were right to want him.

Watch this 6,5 min video if you want to see what he can do. The video also shows how many chances his team mates have ruined with bad finishing etc. Especially last season Chelsea's finishing (and play) was horrendous (Havertz' finishing too), so Havertz didn't have the end-product he should have in a normal team and year. He should have had many more assists. That's why I was surprised and very happy that Chelsea made him available to a rival.

Him being versatile is great, as Arteta requires players who can easily switch positions during the game depending on the situation.

 

Bagels

Well-Known Member
Trusted ⭐

Country: Canada
That should go in the stats thread not here btw
I see you maneuvering for that Mod role

recess GIF
 
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