'Killing youngsters'

[truth_hurts]

Metaphorical obviously!! a few seasons ago there was a reasonable complaint that we lacked experienced. With a nearly full squad I don't think this is any longer the case as we have many over 24s with decent experience. This topic comes purposely on the week after where Wilshere and Sagna return.

Right Wenger has been rightfully applauded for his youth policy of A. Identify promising young players B Nurturing them and C. Giving them opportunities to play. Sadly this isn't working as well now as it used to fair we have Jack Wilshere who has been top class in his appearances, Szczsney who looks like he will become a top goal keeper and Chamberlain who joined at 17 and has become a big game player however this is balanced out by other similarly aged players Namely Jenkinson, Ramsey, Gibbs, Coquellin etc who have talent but would not start somregularly for any other top English team and people are clamouring for Serge Gnabry to start games!!



I am asking are you bothered about our less than super talented youngters anymore? I think we need to kill some more if we are going to progress. We spend years giving them chances to play but as good as it is having this youth policy what's the point in blooding through so many young players? when invariably they end up leaving the club when they become good enough for bigger teams i.e. Cashley, Cesc, RVP, Nasri, Song. For the previously mentioned names we have double the amounts of Senderos, Djourous, Traores etc getting valuable squad places just to make up numbers. Look at Chelsea who have only the likes of Oscar, Hazard and Sturridge as youngsters in their squad Bertrand and McEachran barely feature and both would be sacrificed if the chance to improve on them came up.

As harsh as this is I would buy a new RB and Have jenkinson as the 3rd choice despite the fact he's been decent this season, Buy a new LB, Ramsey gets loaned or sold, Coquellin and Frimpong start less than 10 games and we buy another CM, Ox doesn't play CM simply wide forward and we buy a GK better than Szczsney. This would kill some youngsters but the cream would rise. Very hypothetical I know but thoughts?

 

[DiamondGooner]

Re: Killing youngsters

This thread title is a court case waiting to happen.

 

[DanDare]

Re: Killing youngsters

It's very hard to truly decipher Wenger's true intentions and desires when it comes to our youth system and the running of our team in general. There's a lot of rhetoric and protective statements made by Wenger to cut through. It's clear Wenger really does believe in developing youth and giving youth chance. I believe the wages he gives to youth players is evidence of this. he values them.

I think Wenger has admitted in the past (at least some of the head figures at Arsenal have) that our reliance on developing youth players was born out of our investment in the stadium and the money we had tied up therein. With increasing revenue streams and hopefully more cash in hand to spend we might see what Wenger's ideal is in terms of balance between youth and experience.

I think we are already starting to the see the starts of this with recent signings. I do think Wenger will become more cut throat with youth in some ways. If not for nothing more than a desire to win something with Arsenal before retirement.

To answer your question,I think that we should be less generous with playing time for youth. Let's be honest though, Arsenal has been off balance and stumbling about since we moved to the stadium. It's there for all to see in our weak transfer power, poor results and frustrating player usage.

I don't think the last few years has gone as Arsène wanted in any aspect but he's doing well to stop the ship from sinking. Until we get more wind in our sails though I can't see us doing any better.

Strange nautical analogy I know... din't really make sense.

 

[karl]

Re: Killing youngsters

This was a great idea of Arsène's but it ultimately proved to be fruitless. We invest seasons of mediocracy only to find the players are moved on as soon as they become good enough. AW thought paying high wages to youngsters would inspire loyalty. They all speak very highly of him from their new clubs, but those kind words have left us in trouble , disappointed and broke for the best part of a decade.

 

[goonerwarsh]

Re: Killing youngsters

I personally don't care anymore if the player is 16 or 52. I just want them to be good enough

 

[infineon]

Re: Killing youngsters

You cannot even use the argument that the young players are cheap because we seem to give them bumper pay deals very early on!

 

[truth_hurts]

Re: Killing youngsters

DanDare great post! I think you are right actually in many ways regarding the fact that this youth development is more through necessity than choice, early Wenger squads (although you could argue they were psuedo Graham teams) were not so heavy on young talent.

To Wengers credit most of our recent signings are experienced players. At full strength the only youngsters I think are worthy of being in our matchday 16 are Szczsney, Gibbs, Wilshere and Ox.

 

[Airknight]

Re: Killing youngsters

Oh my, that title.

Our academy still needs some polishing, it's true when we're pissed there are comments about teaching the youngsters to pass backwards and not being brave, or how they they get worse and fail to fulfill their potential as they age.. But on that kind of performances is usually the entire team failing to produce and motivate themselves to get the result..

Share the idea of getting more experienced players when the club starts getting more money to do it.

 

[Jury]

Re: Killing youngsters

:cry:

 

[GunnerBP]

Re: Killing youngsters

I think we still have a pretty good youth system and agree with DanDare that our reliance on youth come more so out of necessity than anything else when we transitioned to the new stadium.

Right now I don't think any youth players are getting chances in the first team that they don't deserve. Jenkinson had the biggest question marks going into the season and he played himself into England contention. Yet once Sagna got back Jenkinson was moved to the bench.

Right now we have Frimpong, Coquelin and Ramsey who aren't great, but they also aren't starters when everyone is fit. With a healthy squad I only see Szczesny, Gibbs and Jack in the starting lineup.

Right now I think we have a good balance between youth players and more experienced signings.

 

[Taylor Gang Gunners]

Its simple logic really;

You buy M'Vila and you KILL Coquelin.
You buy Llorente and you KILL Afobe.
You buy Yanga-Mbiwa and you KILL Miquel.
You buy Navas and you KILL Miyaichi.

I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want all these kids' ghosts on my conscience somewhat, because I called for the purchase of the players above.

 

[Airknight]

Worse thing is the ghosts of Denilson and Bendtner haunt the team weekly, taking some money with them.

 

[evoh_1]

Only the talent that has potential to be better than then options in teh first tema should be considered whne judging whether or not to bring in another player in their postion. Now I know that seems very football manager but what we need to do is offer th opportunity for them to show what they can do nad then be ruthless with it. For instance Ramsey is getting very close looking as if his injury will stop him becoming the player he looked like developing into.

We need to give youth players a chacne, however we shoudn't be giving chances to guys who haven't demonstrated the ability to improve quickly and add to the first team. I don't want ramsey holding up buying a good wither young player to develop or established player who can come in a do a job straight away.

example being Arteta and Cazorla, we needed these players years ago and they were out there. You can't tell me Wenger didn't know about them as he has eyes everywhere, so did we not bring them in because of denilson and developing a tw@t like nasri?

Sink or swim I say and if that means a few drowned young players then fine.

 

[Jury]

It used to be 'sink or swim', but now 'tread water' is also an option at Arsenal.

EDIT: Just noticed the last line of the above post

 

[Anonymous]

Simply put, we need players like Arteta. Experienced, dependable quality, but at an age where them being in the team doesn't kill the youngsters. I think we need another forward, like Adrian, as well as another left back, and a goalkeeper. Someone like Schwarzer of Fulham, preferably. Maybe a CM too.

 

[Penn_]

Its simple logic really;

You buy M'Vila and you KILL Coquelin.
You buy Llorente and you KILL Afobe.
You buy Yanga-Mbiwa and you KILL Miquel.
You buy Navas and you KILL Miyaichi.

I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want all these kids' ghosts on my conscience somewhat, because I called for the purchase of the players above.

I don't think it's that simple, talent regardless of age will always shine through. By giving those with the right talent chances and loans you can gauge their potential.

None of the players you've mentioned above are ready to be regulars this season, and probably not even next season. Just because you buy someone doesn't mean your stuck with them. What would make the most sense is the buy the players like Llroente and Mbiwa etc and then sell them on when the younger players can prove they can do the job.

Very rarely will you get players like Cesc and Wilshere who can step up in a season.

 

[future heroes]

The ungrateful youngsters killed the team.

What is the point of developing young talents into quality players when they stab Wenger in the back the moment they think they are good enough to earn a great contract at a richer club? I am sick of tired of watching the team pay on the field for the development of tactically immature youngsters who jog back and make incredibly stupid mistakes.

Even with a world class talents like Fabregas, we got it wrong as we broke up a successful formation only to accomodate a player that later would leave us anyway.

I am asking are you bothered about our less than super talented youngters anymore?

I say make them earn their place in the squad. You need squad players as well, but the youngsters should not be handed a place in the starting XI on a plate. We should give them chances, but not as many chances as Denilson, Bendtner etc. If they are good enough and do have the right attitude, they will get their chance sooner or later anyway. If they show the wrong attitude or lack of progress, we should sell them for the best of both our club and the player's career. It is no use for us to have youngsters taking up squad places if we can not rely on them. The squad cap forces us to select which players we want to continue to work with when they reach the age of 21 and that is a good thing in my opinion.

It will be different though when our academy is fully developed and we have adopted an Arsenal way playing style, but that is a discussion for the next decade.

Simply put, we need players like Arteta. Experienced, dependable quality, but at an age where them being in the team doesn't kill the youngsters.

Arteta is our best signing in ages. Finally we signed a tactically mature, intelligent and professional player with the interest of the best for the team in mind. He is such a difference to all the spoiled kids who wanted everything on a plate.

 

[Enoch]

"Killing youngsters" is probably the most ridiculous thing to ever come out of Wenger's mouth considering the fact that pre-Emirates he always brought in experienced players, so he at of all people knew how important having experience players in the squad was, his trophy winning teams were all about that. If the young player was good enough (Vieira, Cesc, Wilshere) then they would start a bit earlier. You look at Ashley Cole, when he was coming up we didn't replace Winterburn with Cole, we bought a 25 year old Sylvinho. When Cole showed glimpses of what he can become (thanks to an injury to Sylvinho) we sold Sylvinho.

If the young player is good enough like Vieira and Cesc were and Wilshere now then i understand, but if we have players like Oxlade, who although looks like he's going to become a great player, needs a bit more time, then it wouldn't hurt to buy an experience winger in his prime to help us now while Oxlade develops comfortably.

 

[a_fourteen]

Metaphorical obviously!! a few seasons ago there was a reasonable complaint that we lacked experienced. With a nearly full squad I don't think this is any longer the case as we have many over 24s with decent experience. This topic comes purposely on the week after where Wilshere and Sagna return.

Right Wenger has been rightfully applauded for his youth policy of A. Identify promising young players B Nurturing them and C. Giving them opportunities to play. Sadly this isn't working as well now as it used to fair we have Jack Wilshere who has been top class in his appearances, Szczsney who looks like he will become a top goal keeper and Chamberlain who joined at 17 and has become a big game player however this is balanced out by other similarly aged players Namely Jenkinson, Ramsey, Gibbs, Coquellin etc who have talent but would not start somregularly for any other top English team and people are clamouring for Serge Gnabry to start games!!



I am asking are you bothered about our less than super talented youngters anymore? I think we need to kill some more if we are going to progress. We spend years giving them chances to play but as good as it is having this youth policy what's the point in blooding through so many young players? when invariably they end up leaving the club when they become good enough for bigger teams i.e. Cashley, Cesc, RVP, Nasri, Song. For the previously mentioned names we have double the amounts of Senderos, Djourous, Traores etc getting valuable squad places just to make up numbers. Look at Chelsea who have only the likes of Oscar, Hazard and Sturridge as youngsters in their squad Bertrand and McEachran barely feature and both would be sacrificed if the chance to improve on them came up.

As harsh as this is I would buy a new RB and Have jenkinson as the 3rd choice despite the fact he's been decent this season, Buy a new LB, Ramsey gets loaned or sold, Coquellin and Frimpong start less than 10 games and we buy another CM, Ox doesn't play CM simply wide forward and we buy a GK better than Szczsney. This would kill some youngsters but the cream would rise. Very hypothetical I know but thoughts?

Gibbs and jenkinson are both likely to be England NT regulars soon, Ramsey is the ex-captain of Wales and coquelin will likely get an international cap before brazil so I'm not sure what you're on about. We are actually quite fortunate to have a system that identifies and nurtures talent like they do.

 

[a_fourteen]

"Killing youngsters" is probably the most ridiculous thing to ever come out of Wenger's mouth considering the fact that pre-Emirates he always brought in experienced players, so he at of all people knew how important having experience players in the squad was, his trophy winning teams were all about that. If the young player was good enough (Vieira, Cesc, Wilshere) then they would start a bit earlier. You look at Ashley Cole, when he was coming up we didn't replace Winterburn with Cole, we bought a 25 year old Sylvinho. When Cole showed glimpses of what he can become (thanks to an injury to Sylvinho) we sold Sylvinho.

If the young player is good enough like Vieira and Cesc were and Wilshere now then i understand, but if we have players like Oxlade, who although looks like he's going to become a great player, needs a bit more time, then it wouldn't hurt to buy an experience winger in his prime to help us now while Oxlade develops comfortably.

Necessity is the mother of invention.