Konstantinos Mavropanos: Our New BFG

[al-Ustaadh]

I had totally forgotten about Bielik. What is he upto now? Are we running a secret operation with him?

@MutableEarth

 

[BobP]

Seems to me Arséne has lost the touch of knowing what type of player is needed to really compete in this league. Not surprising really since it's almost 15 years since he last won it. We're getting excited about a kid we know not one fart about simply because he's been supposedly signed by Guru Sven - a kid that might not play any part in our 1st team for God knows how long. Hope springs eternal here at AM I guess. Wish we'd stumped up 75M on VVD personally.

It's not so much that he's lost his touch.

It's just difficult to find the players he once did, at the price he once did, with the market being in the state he is.

I don't just mean that in terms of the money being thrown about. There are hardly any frontiers ready to be penetrated, in terms of scouting that is.

Whe he arrived for instance, foreign players were a relative anomaly in England. Wenger comes in with an intimate knowledge of continental football, particularly of French football which was on the verge of international domination. He nabs the likes of Vieira, Anelka, Petit, Overmars for negligible fees. The latter two were prospects I suppose but the former two were established names, with Overmars having won the CL.

My point is you just can't pull stunts like that anymore, any player which is worth knowing is known. The most crucial factor today is the speed at which you establish relations with the player and his agent. I think that's where we've been struggling in recent times.

 

[KROENKE SUCKS]

Whe he arrived for instance, foreign players were a relative anomaly in England. Wenger comes in with an intimate knowledge of continental football, particularly of French football which was on the verge of international domination. He nabs the likes of Vieira, Anelka, Petit, Overmars for negligible fees. The latter two were prospects I suppose but the former two were established names, with Overmars having won the CL.

2) My point is you just can't pull stunts like that anymore, any player which is worth knowing is known. The most crucial factor today is the speed at which you establish relations with the player and his agent. I think that's where we've been struggling in recent times.

Overmars wasn't cheap neither was Sol or Wiltord, Henry, etc. Our leadership was just more willing to the needful back then.

2) Gaz/Law's extremely prolonged penny pinching style of negotiation certainly didnt help. Luckily we've now got Mislintat/Sanellhi.

 

[Masterdon]

It was obvious that Wenger made those comments about not killing Diaby and Denilson only because he couldn't get Alonso. It would've affected the confidence of two young players knowing their manager was actively looking to sign a player in their position, he just wanted to publicly back them.

We didn’t turn down Alonso to develop Diaby and Denilson, talk about inventing a new narrative.

If this is true, that's not turning him down. An extra £2M stretched our purse strings more than you could imagine back then. Our interest in Alonso was concrete.

An extra 3m was never too much for a club that just cashed 40m from Kolo Toure/Adebayor.

"But the 35-year-old claimed neither club stumped up enough cash for Liverpool to consider their offers.

“I was really close to Juventus and I was close to Arsenal”, he told the Liverpool Echo.

“But, it was just £3m. Liverpool were asking £18m and both offered £15m – so that’s why it didn’t happen."

That's what Alonso himself said. We missed out on the signing due to a difference in valuation of 3m. For anyone who has supported this club for long enough isnt that a completely Wenger thing to do? Fast forward to 2013 and we missed out on Higuain for 10m, also peanuts.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...lonso-close-leaving-Liverpool-FC-Arsenal.html

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/f...ews-Xabi-Alonso-could-have-signed-for-Gunners

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/foot...nal-would-have-paid-another-3million-for-him/

 

[yorch44]

Mislintat signed the likes of Mats Hummels, Christian Pulisic, Robert Lewandowski, Shinji Kagawa, Ousmane Dembele and Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang during his time at Dortmund, so maybe trust in him?. Sven is the best signing we coulda do, and this is the first of many we will see.

 

[KROENKE SUCKS]

That's what Alonso himself said. We missed out on the signing due to a difference in valuation of 3m. For anyone who has supported this club for long enough isnt that a completely Wenger thing to do? Fast forward to 2013 and we missed out on Higuain for 10m, also peanuts.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...lonso-close-leaving-Liverpool-FC-Arsenal.html

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/f...ews-Xabi-Alonso-could-have-signed-for-Gunners

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/foot...nal-would-have-paid-another-3million-for-him/

I would argue that its a completely Kroenke/Gazidis thing to do. Wenger wasn't like this until they arrived at the club. People just work very hard to leave these things at Wenger's feet instead of theirs just like your throw away comment that I've highlighted.

 

[KROENKE SUCKS]

Mislintat signed the likes of Mats Hummels, Christian Pulisic, Robert Lewandowski, Shinji Kagawa, Ousmane Dembele and Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang during his time at Dortmund, so maybe trust in him?. Sven is the best signing we coulda do, and this is the first of many we will see.

For me the signing of Mislintat/Sanellhi is Wenger's way of finally taking player acquisition out of the hands of bean counters (Gaz/Law) and finally put hot back in the hand of football men like it was when Dein was around.

 

[Masterdon]

I would argue that its a completely Kroenke/Gazidis thing to do. Wenger wasn't like this until they arrived at the club. People just work very hard to leave these things at Wenger's feet instead of theirs just like your throw away comment that I've highlighted.

You would argue that solely because you cannot accept that Wenger is to blame.

Unfotunately for your agenda this failure of a transfer happened before Gazidis joined the club and before Kroeke got his majority stake. Funny how you’re trying to blame them.

Ain’t no throwaway comment son I’ve been saying since I joined this forum in 2009 that Wenger has full control over transfers within the budget provided and I’ve been right. Our failure to fully use available club resources to improve the playing squad is 100% Wenger.

 

[KROENKE SUCKS]

1) You would argue that solely because you cannot accept that Wenger is to blame.

2) Unfotunately for your agenda this failure of a transfer happened before Gazidis joined the club and before Kroeke got his majority stake. Funny how you’re trying to blame them.

3) Ain’t no throwaway comment son I’ve been saying since I joined this forum in 2009 that Wenger has full control over transfers within the budget provided and I’ve been right. Our failure to fully use available club resources to improve the playing squad is 100% Wenger.

1) I refuse to believe the narrative that some work extremely hard to foster upon us that Wenger is the person solely responsible for this travesty, or even largely responsible and that getting rid of him will some how magically change everything.

2) All of this started when Dein was forced out of the club and Fiszman and Kroenke became allies with the idea that the board would sell out to Kroenke. He was already owning a chunk of the club by then. To think he hasn't been influential since then is foolish especially as the old board were depending on Kroenke to keep out Usmanov/Dein.

You are the one with an agenda since you are using the fact that Kroenke only became majority owner later(he may already been the largest shareholder by this point) and Gazidis came in after Edelman left as an excuse to obscure the fact that Kroenke's been involved from before the Alonso deal.

3) What resources? Up until 2014 we were hamstrung by garbage legacy sponsorship deals going back to 2002. Most of which were paid upfront and spent on the stadium deals; While the board lied to us that money was available.

I have no doubt that Wenger has full control of the players who are supposed to come in and go out and playing tactics. But does he control the budget? Does he actually handle player acquisition and contract/transfer negotiation? Do you have any proof that he does? Its like all of this murky stuff is then left at Wenger's doorstep by 'posters' like you with throw away "We know all of this is Wenger's fault" comments. Sounds like someone is building a narrative instead of really looking for whats wrong at this club.

All so the fans can start another useless Wenger out campaign that won't amount to anything.

 

[Masterdon]

1) I refuse to believe the narrative that some work extremely hard to foster upon us that Wenger is the person solely responsible for this travesty, or even largely responsible and that getting rid of him will some how magically change everything.

2) All of this started when Dein was forced out of the club and Fiszman and Kroenke became allies with the idea that the board would sell out to Kroenke. He was already owning a chunk of the club by then. To think he hasn't been influential since then is foolish especially as the old board were depending on Kroenke to keep out Usmanov/Dein.

You are the one with an agenda since you are using the fact that Kroenke only became majority owner later(he may already been the largest shareholder by this point) and Gazidis came in after Edelman left as an excuse to obscure the fact that Kroenke's been involved from before the Alonso deal.

3) What resources? Up until 2014 we were hamstrung by garbage legacy sponsorship deals going back to 2002. Most of which were paid upfront and spent on the stadium deals; While the board lied to us that money was available.

I have no doubt that Wenger has full control of the players who are supposed to come in and go out and playing tactics. But does he control the budget? Does he actually handle player acquisition and contract/transfer negotiation? Do you have any proof that he does? Its like all of this murky stuff is then left at Wenger's doorstep by 'posters' like you with throw away "We know all of this is Wenger's fault" comments. Sounds like someone is building a narrative instead of really looking for whats wrong at this club.

All so the fans can start another useless Wenger out campaign that won't amount to anything.

1) He isnt solely responsible for the mess we are in and changing him is likely not going to magically make everything ok. He has however made a lot of mistakes that have cost us which is what we are talking about. I'm a huge fan of Wenger and I support the club because of him (since 97) but that's for another topic.

2) Sorry but this is a pathetic point. You said that refusing to pay an extra 3m for Alonso was a Gazidis/Kroenke thing to do. I've pointed out that Gazidis only joined 6 months later and now I'm going to tell you that Kroenke only had 12% shares in the club at the time. Kroenke knows **** all about football anyway do you really think he was going around telling the other shareholders not to allow Wenger to spend another 3 mil on Xabi Alonso? What the hell for?

3) What resources? We had a cash reserve of 100+m long before 2014. Everyone who has a clue about club finances from AST, Swiss Ramble, the board and Wenger himself confirmed that we had a decent sized budget from 2010/2011 onwards. At worst we had 30 mil profit from Ade/Toure while people who actually understand finances said our transfer budget was 50m+ from 2011. As a qualified accountant myself its clearly obvious from our annual report that we had money and could have spent it. Everything adds up its just the financially ignorant people who believe we had nothing before 2014.

He doesnt control the budget but if he told the club he wanted to spend an extra 3m for Alonso or 10m for Higuain you better believe they have ended up at Arsenal.

 

[BobP]

It's not so much that he's lost his touch.

It's just difficult to find the players he once did, at the price he once did, with the market being in the state he is.

I don't just mean that in terms of the money being thrown about. There are hardly any frontiers ready to be penetrated, in terms of scouting that is.

Whe he arrived for instance, foreign players were a relative anomaly in England. Wenger comes in with an intimate knowledge of continental football, particularly of French football which was on the verge of international domination. He nabs the likes of Vieira, Anelka, Petit, Overmars for negligible fees. The latter two were prospects I suppose but the former two were established names, with Overmars having won the CL.

My point is you just can't pull stunts like that anymore, any player which is worth knowing is known. The most crucial factor today is the speed at which you establish relations with the player and his agent. I think that's where we've been struggling in recent times.

Sorry, post has a few errors.

1) I refuse to believe the narrative that some work extremely hard to foster upon us that Wenger is the person solely responsible for this travesty, or even largely responsible and that getting rid of him will some how magically change everything.

2) All of this started when Dein was forced out of the club and Fiszman and Kroenke became allies with the idea that the board would sell out to Kroenke. He was already owning a chunk of the club by then. To think he hasn't been influential since then is foolish especially as the old board were depending on Kroenke to keep out Usmanov/Dein.

You are the one with an agenda since you are using the fact that Kroenke only became majority owner later(he may already been the largest shareholder by this point) and Gazidis came in after Edelman left as an excuse to obscure the fact that Kroenke's been involved from before the Alonso deal.

3) What resources? Up until 2014 we were hamstrung by garbage legacy sponsorship deals going back to 2002. Most of which were paid upfront and spent on the stadium deals; While the board lied to us that money was available.

I have no doubt that Wenger has full control of the players who are supposed to come in and go out and playing tactics. But does he control the budget? Does he actually handle player acquisition and contract/transfer negotiation? Do you have any proof that he does? Its like all of this murky stuff is then left at Wenger's doorstep by 'posters' like you with throw away "We know all of this is Wenger's fault" comments. Sounds like someone is building a narrative instead of really looking for whats wrong at this club.

All so the fans can start another useless Wenger out campaign that won't amount to anything.

I think you can make inferences based on A. the statements of board members and B. the fact that most of the shifts in the board room have occurred relatively recently, within the context of Wenger's time here at Arsenal.

The board has been pretty open about the fact that Wenger complete autonomy when it comes to the footballing side of things, and even possesses a remit which goes beyond that.

Remember how Keswick said "If he has a plan, we back him, if he doesn't have a plan, we keep quiet"

He followed by saying "so don't let's be in a muddle about who calls the shots about football at the Arsenal Football Club. It is not the chairman, it is not the fans, it is Mr. Arsène Wenger"

IMO, that's a pretty conclusive statement from the chairman of the club and to be perfectly honest, it's not exactly surprising. What could a bunch of old men who have, at best, a superficial interest in football possibly tell Wenger about something he's been doing for close to his entire life?

Besides financial constraints i.e. transfer budget, which is something out of Wenger's control, I have reason to believe that Wenger has complete autonomy when it comes to the footballing side of things.

 

[A_G]

We don't know what happened to the Adebayor/Toure money, pure speculation that it's down to Wenger and not the board. Never forget Di Maria's comments about why he didn't join Arsenal in 2007:

“I don’t know exactly what happened with my proposed transfer to Arsenal"

“I was very excited about joining them but it never happened.

“From what I’ve been told, the transfer money that was supposed to appear, never appeared.

“And just a day-and-a-half later, Benfica heard about the problem, showed interest in me and quickly hired me.

“But I am sure that Arséne Wenger would have had a lot to teach me.”

 

[Masterdon]

We don't know what happened to the Adebayor/Toure money, pure speculation that it's down to Wenger and not the board. Never forget Di Maria's comments about why he didn't join Arsenal in 2007:

I thought Di Maria was down to not being able to get a work permit at age 17?

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ransfer-deals-says-ars-ne-wenger-9996912.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ransfer-deals-says-ars-ne-wenger-9996912.html
http://www.espn.com/soccer/league-name/story/2259591/headline

Oh we know exactly where the Ade/Toure money went. Quick check of the P&L and cash flow statement will show you it went into that big pile of cash that was never used and has lost value to player inflation.

Its inconceivable that Wenger would be denied the funds if he asked for them and especially since the club could afford it. Would Wenger just quietly accept that the club was hoarding cash and not say anything about it, all the while lying to the fans and saying that the money was available? If so that makes Wenger part of plot by the board/shareholders to cheat the fans doesnt it?

Why is it so hard to accept that Wenger has control over transfers within the substantial budget agreed with the board? He could turn down 60 mil for Sanchez who is likely to leave on a free. SAF stated how difficult it was dealing with Wenger over the RVP transfer.

 

[redanddread]

It's not so much that he's lost his touch.

It's just difficult to find the players he once did, at the price he once did, with the market being in the state he is.

I don't just mean that in terms of the money being thrown about. There are hardly any frontiers ready to be penetrated, in terms of scouting that is.

Whe he arrived for instance, foreign players were a relative anomaly in England. Wenger comes in with an intimate knowledge of continental football, particularly of French football which was on the verge of international domination. He nabs the likes of Vieira, Anelka, Petit, Overmars for negligible fees. The latter two were prospects I suppose but the former two were established names, with Overmars having won the CL.

My point is you just can't pull stunts like that anymore, any player which is worth knowing is known. The most crucial factor today is the speed at which you establish relations with the player and his agent. I think that's where we've been struggling in recent times.

It appears that he no longer even unearths the best players & even if he does know of them doesn't rate them. Seems to me he really needed someone a team of people to assist him on the recruitment side of things as he hasn't had a great record recently.

 

[A_G]

Oh we know exactly where the Ade/Toure money went. Quick check of the P&L and cash flow statement will show you it went into that big pile of cash that was never used and has lost value to player inflation.

Was that Wenger's call? According to the Telegraph, part of the money went towards 17 new contracts around that time as the wage bill increased.

Its inconceivable that Wenger would be denied the funds if he asked for them and especially since the club could afford it. Would Wenger just quietly accept that the club was hoarding cash and not say anything about it, all the while lying to the fans and saying that the money was available? If so that makes Wenger part of plot by the board/shareholders to cheat the fans doesnt it?

Wenger has talked many times about the financial restrictions he's had upon him, very few managers will explicitly call out their board. Naive to suggest he should have publicly criticised them, that would have given other clubs pause before hiring a manager who will air the club's dirty laundry like that.

Not to mention, that was the time where Wenger felt that group of players was coming together, without needing any more signings apart from Vermaelen; in fact he said at the start of the season that if he didn't win the league by 2011 he'd have failed.

 

[Masterdon]

Wenger has talked many times about the financial restrictions he's had upon him, very few managers will explicitly call out their board. Naive to suggest he should have publicly criticised them, that would have given other clubs pause before hiring a manager who will air the club's dirty laundry like that.

Not to mention, that was the time where Wenger felt that group of players was coming together, without needing any more signings apart from Vermaelen; in fact he said at the start of the season that if he didn't win the league by 2011 he'd have failed.

Yet on numerous other occasions Wenger, the board, AST and Swiss ramble have spoken about our sizable transfer budget and this was never utilized = my point which is Wengers failure to fully utilize available resources for the good of the playing squad has cost us titles. If there was no budget then of course there is no issue but there was a budget. This is a fact backed up by audited financial statements and the words of Wenger and the board. I don’t see how it’s being disputed. There was a budget Wenger chose not to use it.

Either that or Wenger colluded with the board to stash the cash which makes him part of the problem. There is no way a manager as shrewd as Wenger would accept no/minimal budget being provided when we have 100+ mil spare cash sitting around and more to come from tv money and commercial deal renewals etc. It simply does not make any sense.

I agree 100% with your last paragraph. He genuinely believed the squad was good enough to win the title and asked to be judged on it. He was wrong and still no judgement.

 

[say yes]

I would argue that its a completely Kroenke/Gazidis thing to do. Wenger wasn't like this until they arrived at the club. People just work very hard to leave these things at Wenger's feet instead of theirs just like your throw away comment that I've highlighted.

He 100% was - Wenger has never been a keen spender.

Back then we just had David Dein to force things through.

 

[Gooner Zig]

You only have to look at the way our cash balance increased from 2013 - 153M GBP to a whopping 226M GBP in 2016 to know that we were under utilising our cash resources.

If there ever was a period to really hit the transfer market hard - it was the period between 2013 and 2016. It's cost the club dearly and we're seeing the effects of not adequately investing in the playing squad now and probably in the next two to three years.

 

[KROENKE SUCKS]

He 100% was - Wenger has never been a keen spender.

Back then we just had David Dein to force things through.

Dein never forced anything on Wenger, they worked together, they were both experts in the football business in their own way and they complemented each other perfectly. Every opportunity Deins had he has defended Wenger and pointed out that the problem wasn't Wenger and he was the one keeping the **** show together.

I just hope that Mislintat Sanellhi can do the same for him.

 

[KROENKE SUCKS]

You only have to look at the way our cash balance increased from 2013 - 153M GBP to a whopping 226M GBP in 2016 to know that we were under utilising our cash resources.

If there ever was a period to really hit the transfer market hard - it was the period between 2013 and 2016. It's cost the club dearly and we're seeing the effects of not adequately investing in the playing squad now and probably in the next two to three years.

The real mistake was we should have used that money to renew Özil, Sanchez two seasons ago. How much would Sanchez be worth if he had 3 more years on his contract. Could've forced City to break the world transfer record. This is the real difference between Liverpools Coutinho situation and our Sanchez situation. Is this Wenger's fault too? He's some sort of crazy mad man who handles all contract negotiations himself and won't let us renew them or sell them.