Life after Wenger | Ornstein: Arsenal set to appoint Unai Emery

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by SA Gunner, Oct 12, 2015.

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Do you think Emery will get the club back on an upwards trajectory?

  1. Yes

    92.4%
  2. No

    7.6%
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  1. Cazorlinho

    Cazorlinho Took years to learn how to embed tweets

    I don't really agree with the narrative that we have lesser players than we used to have.

    We were better as a team when we were playing the likes of Gibbs, Jenkinson, Gervinho, Podolski, Denilson, Walcott, Giroud.

    Look at this team who almost knocked out the best Bayern team in years (who has won the CL the same year)
    [​IMG]

    Except Rosicky Cazorla and Arteta, I wouldn't pick anybody else ahead of the current squad we have right now.
    And these players except Arteta aren't known to be great at defensive duties.

    We went to the CL final in 2006 playing a back 4 made of Flamini as LB (out of position) Eboué as a RB, Senderos and Touré as CB.
    From this back 4 I genuinely think only Touré was a better defender than what we have right now.

    What you call "lack of concentration" is in my opinion just players developing very bad habits because of the lack of individual coaching. And this isn't just an assumption from a fan like me but this is from our older players who have played under Wenger.
    AND
    Because of the confort zone they're in from far too long.
    Bellerin doesn't have any genuine competition in the squad. Walcott has spent 10 years at the club mostly as a passenger while being one of our biggest earner. We gave a massive contract to Özil who hasn't been consistent enough to deserve that kind of money. It's not a coincidence if he hasn't attracted any serious interest from other big clubs like Sanchez did (City, Bayern, United were all seriously chasing him).
    Xhaka & Cech have been so poor and keep starting every single game.
    And now Ramsey who has been ok but not great is now asking for a 200kpw contract according to reports even though he's injury prone and has been really inconsistent during the last couple of season.

    So what has changed between the current Wenger and the one from 10 years ago?
    1) Most of the clubs have caught up and even got better than we are at spotting hidden gems, especially the ones from France NT and la Ligue 1. Nowadays a team like Leicester has the structure to spot talents like Kanté and Mahrez before anybody else. We've missed so much talent that we could afford before they got bought by other clubs: Dembélé, Griezmann, Varane, Kanté, Mendy, Lloris...
    It wasn't the case 10/15 years ago.

    2) We've lost our winning culture, our ambition, our hunger from top to bottom.
    We've slowly accepted playing the second fiddle role in the premiership and in Europe just because there were a few clubs who had much more ressources than we had as long as we stay a profitable business.

    Of courses ressources makes a huge difference. But we've used this same excuse even though we could do better. We could improve.
    We didn't need oil money to find a better striker than Sanogo and Welbeck to help Giroud and the team scoring goals.
    We don't need oil money to sign a proper DM who would bring some balance to our midfield our a solid RB as a backup.

    3) Behind every great team in Europe, there is an owner or board doing a great job. There is a strong structure to support the coach.
    We don't.
    It's like Wenger is almost running this club by himself.
    Back in the days Dein was his close friend and was much more active than any current member of our board.
    It can't be anymore a one man's job.
    Nobody from the board wants to be involved and take responsabilities.
     
  2. scytheavatar

    scytheavatar Well-Known Member

    These players were better at their prime than fans give them credit for. Aubameyang and Lacazette are sidegrades from Giroud. Walcott was an important outlet of our attack for many years and Bellerin has looked a pale shadow attacking wise without him. Gervinho is a unique talent and was successful at Roma after leaving us. 2008-2010 Denilson would be our best midfielder ATM if he was playing for us. Podolski was a limited player but a great option on the bench and always lethal. Gibbs and Jenkinson were promising prospects at one stage of their career.

    Many years from now people are going to look back at our current team and the idea that fans though Xhaka could become Alonso is going to be laughable.
     
  3. Giroud12

    Giroud12 Well-Known Member


    Totally agree and thats whats really showing how poor Wenger is doing these days.

    At the start of the season, I thought the squad was the best weve had for a long time. Granted, we lost some squad depth when Giroud, Walcott, Coq and Gabriel left, but we replaced them with Mkhi and one of the best strikers in the world. Personell doesnt matter at this point. How is it possible that Kola, Xhaka and Mustafi goes from very good/good/OK to utter crap? Looking at some of the players that have gotten many games for us over the last years, they would be miles away from starting now. Bendtner, Chamak, Gervinho, Eboue, Jenkinson, Senderos, Denilson, Gibbs are nowhere near the level of the players we have now, yet they played hundreds of games combined and performed much better.

    How a team with the left back of the year in Germany, the Gladback captain, the Valencia captain (?), sold performers for years (Monreal, Bellerin, Kos), a very experienced GK, one of the top 3 strikers in the world, another striker who have scored 90 goals for a mediocre team the last three years, young, exciting talent (Nelson, AMN, Iwobi, Eddie, Holding) can be in danger of losing the 6th place to Burnley, is quite amazing.
     
  4. Token Yank

    Token Yank Well-Known Member

    It’s as simple as this, when Santi was in the team we were good, always near the top of the table. When Santi went down injured we became crap.
     
  5. Slartibartfast

    Slartibartfast Well-Known Member

    So your argument is to cherry pick one game? And what do Theo Walcott, Podolski and Gervinho have to do with the talent across the back line? Sure, Arsenal has some better players up front today, but that's completely immaterial since we're talking about the defense. In that same year, Arsenal's back line consisted of a Per Mertesacker who was at the top of his game, a younger and healthier Koscielny, Vermaelen and Bacary Sagna when he was still arguably the best right back in the Premier League. Plus they had a young and hungry Gibbs and a younger Monreal. I'll take that over what's out there right now all day long. And they had guys like Arteta who were willing to do the defensive work in midfield.

    I don't think Bould is coaching the defense any differently than he did then. They just had better players. As for all the rest of the stuff, it's nice you could vent, but most has little or nothing to do with Arsenal's current defensive problems. I mean, what does Sanogo have to do with it? Plus, you're contradicting yourself. On one hand you're claiming there are better players out there now, then on the other you complain about not being able to bring in players who are good enough. Well which is it?
     
  6. Cazorlinho

    Cazorlinho Took years to learn how to embed tweets

    I don't agree with you mate.
    Lacazette & Aubameyang have goal scoring records Giroud can only dream of.
    Even in terms of ability Lacazette is a much more complete player than Giroud is.
    Aubameyang had one of the best scoring record in Europe for years.
    Giroud have never been anywhere close to that level.

    Walcott has always been a very limited player while being one of our top owners. Mkhitaryan is a much much better footballer. And tbf Walcott was crap too this year in this current environnement.

    And let's be honest for a minute. Denilson Gibbs and Jenkinson have always been very mediocre players. Especially Gibbs & Jenkinson were so much overhyped with all this British Core thing.
    Bellerin was performing at a level these previous 2 never did in their career.

    Denilson wouldn't be better than Elneny atm. They're pretty much at the same level.
     
    Token Yank and Justin1986 like this.
  7. Cazorlinho

    Cazorlinho Took years to learn how to embed tweets

    Because defense is not only about a DM and a back 4. It's about team efforts all across the pitch, tracking back, pressing the opponent to not let your defence exposed.

    You're missing my point though.
    I don't think Mertesacker Vermaelen and Sagna are that much better than our current options.
    You're comparing a team that has worked very well and Wenger has almost overachieved with his squad back then vs a team that hasn't been working anymore for a year except the final League/FA Cup games last year.
    Vermalen had already became mediocre and too much injury prone during that time. I don't think he's that much a better option than a Holding full of confidence (which isn't the case anymore, and that's the issue).
    Sagna was really poor at crossing and his offensive contribution wasn't that good. Even though he was very solid in defense. Bellerin was a much better player going forward when he first broke into the team. But weaker in defense I agree. But this is an area where you can easily improve with good coaching and experience IMO.
    Per was a solid player with huge flaws. I have a lot of respect for him. And I think he was a better defender than Mustafi obviously.
    But Shkodran had a very promising start with us and I really think he can do much much better than he's showing right now.
    We were all excited by the Koscielny Mustafi partnership before the German's injury. They had a good record together. I'm not saying he was world class but he had a promising start.
    When Arteta was our DM a lot of fans wanted Arsenal to buy another traditional DM because they thought Arteta wasn't enough (especially after we got destroyed at Anfield, Etihad, Milan). He wasn't the greatest at pure defensive duties tbf but he had other qualities.
    Monreal is a much better player right now than he was when we first signed him. He's one of the few who has improved under Wenger during the last few years.

    I'm pretty sure if they played in the current context and toxic atmosphere they won't do much better than our current players.
    Even our last signings Lacazette Aubameyang Kolasinac, who all looked great in very good/solide teams are currently all underperforming.

    Our current players have already shown they can defend much much better than they're doing right now. They've even won the FA Cup last year against very good teams.

    Defense is not about talent only. It's also about work ethic. Focus, Discipline, Team efforts, tactics. Partnerships. Confidence. All those areas where we've gone backwards and I tried to explain why we have in my previous post.
    How many times we've heard from our players the "they wanted it more than us" BS?

    About the last part even though I think we have a much more talented team than we had after Cesc has left us, we fell behind at buying/spotting the best young talents in Europe, especially from France. The players who are going to be/became world class. When was the last time Wenger has brought in a young player as exciting as Cesc? RVP? Diaby? Anelka? Or even those under the radar bargains players we used to buy like Monreal, Cazorla, Rosicky, Hleb, Koscielny, Giroud? We're wasting our ressources with players like Welbeck, Perez, Gabriel
     
    El Granit-Coq likes this.
  8. American_Gooner

    American_Gooner Not actually American. Unless Di Marzio says so. Moderator

    I don't think you've actually seen someone with dementia if you think Wenger is suffering from it.
     
  9. sil007

    sil007 Member

    I am free to have my opinion , since its a forum to exchange idea.

    Seriously , you dont understand the word possibility ? :lol:

    And BTW my friend grandpa have one. Mild , but still dementia

    Common symptoms of mild dementia include:

    - personality changes, such as becoming more withdrawn and loner ( wenger atm)
    - difficulty with problem-solving and complex tasks. ( wenger atm )

    Clear ? :lol:
     
  10. Jasard

    Jasard #PlayAMNInMidfield

    Clear or not it's a wee bit crass.
     
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  11. sil007

    sil007 Member

  12. Slartibartfast

    Slartibartfast Well-Known Member

    So now you agree with me that it's not just a matter of the wrong defensive tactics? Focus. Discipline. Team effort. Partnership. Confidence. That's my argument. These players don't have those things in the same way that past teams did. That's it in a nutshell. Glad you came over to my way of thinking. :cool:

    Scroll back up and take a look at the tweets with Lee Dixon's comments -- especially the stuff about Bellerin and recruitment. That's basically the same argument I've been trying to make. Bellerin doesn't know what he's doing (refer back to my City comments) and the players just aren't as good as the old ones.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  13. Cazorlinho

    Cazorlinho Took years to learn how to embed tweets

    I think those are the kind of things the coach and his staff have failed to develop with this squad especially when they've been there for so long.

    I tried to explain why in my previous posts: players being in their comfort zone, lack of competition for players like Xhaka/Cech/Mustafi/Bellerin, Wenger being too patient with players that are not worth it, we've lost our winning culture/ambition from top to bottom and it has influenced the team.
    Ofc there are born leaders like Vieira and Adams. But I also think you can develop some of it with time, good influence, and a healthy environement.

    Idk when it has gone all wrong within the club because we were great at developping players. Players that have mostly failed anywhere else they've played (Hleb, Song, Adebayor, Flamini, Nasri).
    But now it's the complete opposite. We're getting players that have a great record in their previous club and they're nowhere near as good.
    We used to compete with the top 4 by spending £15/20M every year while we were selling our best players.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  14. Lenny Baryea

    Lenny Baryea New Member

    Watching the PSG vs Real game on BT Sport and the commentator just said that Unai Emery is likely gone if PSG don't make at least the Semi Finals.

    Surely he'd be a contender *IF* Wenger were to depart in the summer? What do people think of the former Valencia and Sevilla boss?

    Perhaps a swap, with Wenger going to Paris?!
     
  15. Token Yank

    Token Yank Well-Known Member

    I don’t know much about him, but that PSG team might be the most talented in the world and he hasn’t achieved much with them, all things considered. I am on the Jardim train. He has a fantastic record everywhere he has gone, usually with lesser rated teams and youth. I.e. he punches above his weight. His Monaco team beat us in the CL, then sold their best players, rebuilt again, won the league and made the CL semi while playing sexy football, sold their best players and are now 2nd. That is impressive.
     
  16. Sapient Hawk

    Sapient Hawk #NeverArteta



    2019 it is. The old boy's going down fighting. :lol:
     
  17. Rimaal

    Rimaal Questionable Taste

    They had better sack the senile granny.
     
  18. celestis

    celestis Arsenal-Mania Veteran Moderator

    Yet Tony was 90 percent the coach , and Wenger never interefered , so which it it ?
     
    El Duderino likes this.
  19. Sapient Hawk

    Sapient Hawk #NeverArteta

    Who? Our impotent board? Doubt they've the requisite brain cells to come up with an actual decision that would be of benefit to the club.

    I actually thought he wouldn't survive the Brighton result, lets be honest, any embattled manager who's delivered as similar a terrible run of results wouldn't as well, but at Arsenal, miracles still continue to happen :lol:
     
    Rimaal likes this.
  20. American_Gooner

    American_Gooner Not actually American. Unless Di Marzio says so. Moderator


    Löw to Arsenal gaining momentum, devastated about this
     
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