Who would be your candidate to replace Arteta?


  • Total voters
    184

CaseUteinberger

A-M's brilliant, yet humble Xhaka-stan 😍
On a serious note, what youngish, up and coming German coaches are there around that might be an option? With Klopp and Tuchel being successful is someone like Marco Rose an option? Are there any others?

I like that most of the new German school of coaches are attack minded and like to play with higher tempo. It seems to fit the PL quite well, or at least I keep telling myself that.
 

GoonerJay24

Well-Known Member
We need a manager that instills confidence in the players to express themselves whilst implementing Arsenal's combination playing style.

I don't want to see no Guardiola or Klopp football here.
 

ExtjExhtts

=Ex timo jens Ex Highbury two thousand six
On a serious note, what youngish, up and coming German coaches are there around that might be an option? With Klopp and Tuchel being successful is someone like Marco Rose an option? Are there any others?

I like that most of the new German school of coaches are attack minded and like to play with higher tempo. It seems to fit the PL quite well, or at least I keep telling myself that.

Pellegrino Matarazzo at Stuttgart. He is not german but has worked in german football since 2000.
 

AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
On a serious note, what youngish, up and coming German coaches are there around that might be an option? With Klopp and Tuchel being successful is someone like Marco Rose an option? Are there any others?

I like that most of the new German school of coaches are attack minded and like to play with higher tempo. It seems to fit the PL quite well, or at least I keep telling myself that.
Marco Rose is a good shout, he's someone I always forget to mention when we talk about managerial candidates but definitely an interesting profile.
 

SA Gunner

Hates Tierney And Wants Him Sold Immediately
Trusted ✔️
On a serious note, what youngish, up and coming German coaches are there around that might be an option? With Klopp and Tuchel being successful is someone like Marco Rose an option? Are there any others?

I like that most of the new German school of coaches are attack minded and like to play with higher tempo. It seems to fit the PL quite well, or at least I keep telling myself that.

German coaches or at least the ones from the Bundesliga include Rose and the American Jesse Marsh, who took over from Marsh at RB Salzburg.

The common theme/approach I think you’re interested in is the gegenpressing techniques which Ralf Rangnick has developed and promoted during his career. Appointing him would give us that capability, both in football directorship and management, with Rangnick appointing a coach to develop and build with.
 

GoonerJeeves

Up The Terriers
Trusted ✔️
Potter, Gallardo, ten Hag, Galtier all good shouts.

No to Conte for philosophy reasons as well as concerns about how good he is at top levels (PL and CL). Definite no to Rodgers. Two managers who are overrated around here (especially the second).
Rodgers is a beautiful human being. Great character.
 

CaseUteinberger

A-M's brilliant, yet humble Xhaka-stan 😍
German coaches or at least the ones from the Bundesliga include Rose and the American Jesse Marsh, who took over from Marsh at RB Salzburg.

The common theme/approach I think you’re interested in is the gegenpressing techniques which Ralf Rangnick has developed and promoted during his career. Appointing him would give us that capability, both in football directorship and management, with Rangnick appointing a coach to develop and build with.
Jesse Marsh. Will look him up!

What I am looking for with German coaches is the larger focus on tempo. I feel that the system of play Arteta subscribes to can get very slow and predictable unless you have great players that can execute it really well and improvise within it. I also feel that coaches like Klopp and Tuchel are less tactically rigid than say a Pep. And we need that given the fact that we are not the top dog nor will be as things stand now.
 

Toby Andrl

Part Time Stuttgart Fan
Trusted ✔️
On a serious note, what youngish, up and coming German coaches are there around that might be an option? With Klopp and Tuchel being successful is someone like Marco Rose an option? Are there any others?

I like that most of the new German school of coaches are attack minded and like to play with higher tempo. It seems to fit the PL quite well, or at least I keep telling myself that.

Pellegrino Matarazzo at Stuttgart, Bo Svensson at Mainz, Gerardo Seoane at Leverkusen (although with a successfull time at Bern and a host of trophies not that upcoming anymore).

Looking south over the border into Austria there's Salzburg's Matthias Jaissle.
 

Toby Andrl

Part Time Stuttgart Fan
Trusted ✔️
Jesse Marsh

Marsch's struggling massively at Leipzig. They're playing like ****, have only won one game, sit in 12th and generally look very bad right now.

Sure, they lost Upamecano and Sabitzer, but they should look a lot better with the transfer business they did. Can't get André Silva firing and they look shaky defensively. Will be interesting to see if Marsch can turn it around, but right now he's one of the first names on the shortlist of who gets fired first in the Bundesliga.
 

Toby Andrl

Part Time Stuttgart Fan
Trusted ✔️
Belongs to the Klopp coaching tree if I read his bio correctly.

He's a close personal friend of Klopp's, used to be his captain and a key player when Klopp was managing Mainz and Rose still a player. Assistant to Thomas Tuchel and Martin Schmidt at Mainz, then joined the Red Bull franchise coaching U16, U18, U19 and the first team at Salzburg. Definitely an alumni of the Helmut Groß/Ralf Rangnick school.
 

dka91

Established Member
Marsch's struggling massively at Leipzig. They're playing like ****, have only won one game, sit in 12th and generally look very bad right now.

Sure, they lost Upamecano and Sabitzer, but they should look a lot better with the transfer business they did. Can't get André Silva firing and they look shaky defensively. Will be interesting to see if Marsch can turn it around, but right now he's one of the first names on the shortlist of who gets fired first in the Bundesliga.

I take it that the board executives at RB Leipzig are more astute than the ones at Arsenal otherwise Marsch could expect a promotion, 3 year extension and 200 million euros to spend in the next summer transfer window.
 

CaseUteinberger

A-M's brilliant, yet humble Xhaka-stan 😍
He's a close personal friend of Klopp's, used to be his captain and a key player when Klopp was managing Mainz and Rose still a player. Assistant to Thomas Tuchel and Martin Schmidt at Mainz, then joined the Red Bull franchise coaching U16, U18, U19 and the first team at Salzburg. Definitely an alumni of the Helmut Groß/Ralf Rangnick school.
I’ll follow this guy closer now. Might be one if/when we replace Arteta!
 

GoonerJay24

Well-Known Member
German coaches or at least the ones from the Bundesliga include Rose and the American Jesse Marsh, who took over from Marsh at RB Salzburg.

The common theme/approach I think you’re interested in is the gegenpressing techniques which Ralf Rangnick has developed and promoted during his career. Appointing him would give us that capability, both in football directorship and management, with Rangnick appointing a coach to develop and build with.

We should be building on Wengers philosophy not some German model!

Arsenal fans don't realise what we once had.
 

Toby Andrl

Part Time Stuttgart Fan
Trusted ✔️
I take it that the board executives at RB Leipzig are more astute than the ones at Arsenal otherwise Marsch could expect a promotion, 3 year extension and 200 million euros to spend in the next summer transfer window.

Yeah, Marsch wil get the axe if he continues like he does. Will be interesting to see who they go for, though. All the senior Red Bull guys have left the building and the junior ones have been installed to new positions.

They won't re-assign Jaissle from Salzburg to Leipzig after just a few months, Bo Svensson doesn't seem like the guy to leave Mainz in the middle of the season, Rose is at Dortmund. They might go for Roger Schmidt who's at PSV right now, maybe they'll go for Peter Zeidler who's at St. Gallen right now.
 

Toby Andrl

Part Time Stuttgart Fan
Trusted ✔️
Yeah, but it's frankly not the same to implement the style that Pep did at City as it is to implement the one Conte did, more reactive counter-attacking styles are easier to implement in the short-term** (we can see this with Tuchel's 5-2-3 / 3-4-3 as well), and didn't represent a big departure from the style of the previous manager. The fact is we saw where his project stood when all the big clubs had their projects firmly in place the next season. He finished 5th (sure, there are other factors in there; he seemed to lose the players at some point in that season--though that is part of managing, too, tbf--and 5th probably doesn't do justice to his managerial quality in that climate).

**this is a fact that is under-discussed wrt regards to managerial discussions and appreciation of Arteta on here, in general. If you have played football at a decent level or been close to coaches and people in the game or are paying attention closely to the sport on a tactical level you know this. There is a reason why Arteta had more success with a more "amarrateguis"--reactive, counter-attacking, getting players behind the ball--style and why he implemented it in the early stages, it's simply easier to get a team with competitive disadvantages in talent level wrt to its opponents to punch above its weight with this sort of style, we see it over and over again across the history of football, from Simeone who has perfected this style with Atléti but has always failed when it has come to trying to take the next step and proposing football without relying on reactive tactics and drawing the opponent out and taking advantage of spaces (same happened with Mourinho), to Rodgers who had success implementing this sort of system with Leicester but again, has never been able to transition into a more positive style with any success. It's one of the reasons, indeed, why Arteta is finding things so difficult in a transition to a style where he is proposing football--he will have quickly realised that if he wants to make this transition making it without quality decision makers with quality and composure on the ball it is simply going to be impossible, and has position by position (first Ødegaard and ESR; now this summer realising that you are not going to have success with this with a Holding and a Bellerín in the lineup, and that from front to back you need this type of player) gone about getting the level up to where it's needed if any success is to be had with this style. It's the reason why Pep and Arteta are actually right when they say City did something that no one had ever done in dominating the league the way they did with that style of football, and what an accomplishment it was; no matter how much money you spend it is a big accomplishment to do this, not even Wenger did it with such an un-renouncable front-foot style, and to do it without a cheat code type player like Messi or Henry to a lesser extent is indeed a sign of a special accomplishment and top tactical level / coaching. It is also the reason why I rate Potter so high, because what he is doing at Brighton is not easy at all (though I have some minor concerns; small sample size, but when I have seen Brighton against us I have not been as impressed as I expected to be and expected them to play more evenly with us, and it is also true that it's not the same to do this at a lower expectation club where people are quick to praise your football and the pressure of losing or drawing doesn't weigh too highly, reminds me a bit of Setién at Las Palmas and Betis and how he found things quite differently at Barça, a manager I recently rated and who it turns out I overrated; that said there are big differences between Setién and Potter, and I think Potter is a better manager / younger and more up to date and flexible, but still, it's a comparison that gives me a bit of hesitation).


Not I, and just because you see the comparison doesn't mean I do (I don't). Klopp I won't even get into because people who were doubting his ability are very strange, Tuchel I always rated, it's been clear from the moment he took over Dortmund he's a very tactically adept manager, and not inflexible or limited to one style of play / scheme as Conte is.


You all repeat this but it doesn't do anything to address the legitimate concerns I raise with him.

The fact his major success as a manager comes in Serie A and in a weak-ish PL still very much in transition. When the stakes / climate has been a bit higher / more difficult, he has struggled, as in his second season and in the CL, where his teams have really struggled. Seeing the lack of success of Serie A managers like Sarri in the PL raises significant concerns for me, simply put it is in an inferior league (with extremely different tactical conditions to the current PL), and it is not like his work with Inter and Juve is comparable to that of Gasperini at Atalanta where he's got a club undeniably pushing above its weight. Those were big money projects with top clubs where he got very nice results out of them in that league.

Combine this with my concerns about style, and you can see why I have my doubts and prefer other options, and think that Conte is overrated on this forum, where people declare him a world class manager with the same certainty that we would say Messi is world class.

That's all fine and well, but we're having a discussion about tactical level / competition level and it's 100% relevant when we're discussing the achievements / level of a coach. It simply has to be discussed whether you think it sounds like Liverpool fans or not. Anyways, it's more delusional--ie, like Liverpool fans--if you don't acknowledge it (like a certain Wenger cultist), so yeah...I'll just focus on being not delusional. Delusional was the way Arsenal fans talked about Em*ry when we first signed him, for me, that was when our fanbase most reminded me of Liverpool fans.


Yes, I did. No one is saying that Arteta's football is pretty on the eye at the moment but the tactical intention is clear, something that wasn't the case with Em*ry nor would be with Conte. It is very clear the type of system Arteta is striving for (not least of all because he's clearly using Guardiola's juego de posición as 99% of his template), and while he may or may not achieve it (I see strides towards achieving it, especially in important recruitments this summer), it is vital that the intention is there. Perhaps this is something that is less important to those of you in England, but when I talk to people in my country or outside of England about Arsenal, our reputation--which Wenger himself built--is clear: we are the one club in England that tries to play 'the right way', that plays like 'Barça.' You can more or less agree with this, and we know that there are definite qualifications to this idea, but that is our reputation that Wenger has built, and yes, I think we absolutely have a duty to try to carry it on (not least of all because it makes economic sense and is quite exploitable on that level, and in this climate against state owned clubs and clubs that will always be bigger than us financially--United--we need to use all the economic weapons at our disposal).


Let me be clear: when I say I have genuine doubts and concerns about Conte and that I feel he is overrated here, I am not saying he is a bad manager. I was one of the first to say that his appointment to Chelsea was a step in raising the tactical level in the PL. During the 2016 Euros I would've told you he was easily the best manager in the tournament. I rate Conte, but not to the extent that you all do, and don't believe he is the right choice for this club, nor do I agree with the hyperbolic way he is spoken about here. My reasons for that are above. Thank you (and Troopz, to a lesser extent) for replying in a mature fashion with your arguments and thoughts laid out in a reasonable fashion instead of the others who acted like giggly little boys with the obvious typo.

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Camus

Active Member
Yeah, but it's frankly not the same to implement the style that Pep did at City as it is to implement the one Conte did, more reactive counter-attacking styles are easier to implement in the short-term** (we can see this with Tuchel's 5-2-3 / 3-4-3 as well), and didn't represent a big departure from the style of the previous manager.
We're not talking about Conte implementing a "short-term" system to simply steady the ship and narrowly guide his club to top 4 places etc.. or something akin to that. The man in his 1st season at the club, in his 1st season outside of his native league, took a team that finished 10th the pervious and proceeded to win the PL at a canter. He had Chelsea 1st for 26 consecutive game weeks. And Mourinho and Conte play as differing styles as Pep and Pellegrini. If you want people to think you're being sincere and not disingenuous then you need to stop trying to desperately downplay this objective undeniable fact , it's failing miserable and just makes you look like an clear and obvious "agenda merchant" that's not commensurate with a good faith discussion.

The fact is we saw where his project stood when all the big clubs had their projects firmly in place the next season. He finished 5th (sure, there are other factors in there; he seemed to lose the players at some point in that season--though that is part of managing, too, tbf--and 5th probably doesn't do justice to his managerial quality in that climate).
Conte's issues weren't just that he lost the dressing room during the middle of the season (which he did, I'll concede that. They had a bit of a mini-collapse from January to April but prior to that they were only 1-2 points off 2nd but granted City were running away with the league). He had issues with the board as early as May of the previous season, it rumbled on throughout the summer with him continually demanding more money/better players to challenge on two fronts and a lot of people saw his opening day team selection in the defeat to Burnley as a public message to the board that he needed transfers. As an example Chelsea/Conte had a particularly terrible performance against City in March of that season but in terms of team selection with Kante being ill the midfielders at Conte's disposal were Fabregas, Drinkwater, Chalobah. But as I said in my previous post it's not exactly hard to sympathise with Conte's assessment of the clear weakness in his teams and his demands for better players.

I'll admit that whilst I do more often than not agree with Conte's demands the way he airs them and the insistence and often "toys out of the pram" way he acts when he doesn't get them are counterproductive and does/can lead to negative situations. But I don't think they are issues that can't be dealt before hand and it seems Conte himself it taking more care to nail-down long term commitments with the board before signing on for his next role as we saw with him rejecting Sp**s. So I think if we were to hire him then we'd have in place a transfer road map that he'd be content him.


**this is a fact that is under-discussed wrt regards to managerial discussions and appreciation of Arteta on here, in general. If you have played football at a decent level or been close to coaches and people in the game or are paying attention closely to the sport on a tactical level you know this. There is a reason why Arteta had more success with a more "amarrateguis"--reactive, counter-attacking, getting players behind the ball--style and why he implemented it in the early stages, it's simply easier to get a team with competitive disadvantages in talent level wrt to its opponents to punch above its weight with this sort of style, we see it over and over again across the history of football, from Simeone who has perfected this style with Atléti but has always failed when it has come to trying to take the next step and proposing football without relying on reactive tactics and drawing the opponent out and taking advantage of spaces (same happened with Mourinho), to Rodgers who had success implementing this sort of system with Leicester but again, has never been able to transition into a more positive style with any success. It's one of the reasons, indeed, why Arteta is finding things so difficult in a transition to a style where he is proposing football--he will have quickly realised that if he wants to make this transition making it without quality decision makers with quality and composure on the ball it is simply going to be impossible, and has position by position (first Ødegaard and ESR; now this summer realising that you are not going to have success with this with a Holding and a Bellerín in the lineup, and that from front to back you need this type of player) gone about getting the level up to where it's needed if any success is to be had with this style. It's the reason why Pep and Arteta are actually right when they say City did something that no one had ever done in dominating the league the way they did with that style of football, and what an accomplishment it was; no matter how much money you spend it is a big accomplishment to do this, not even Wenger did it with such an un-renouncable front-foot style, and to do it without a cheat code type player like Messi or Henry to a lesser extent is indeed a sign of a special accomplishment and top tactical level / coaching. It is also the reason why I rate Potter so high, because what he is doing at Brighton is not easy at all (though I have some minor concerns; small sample size, but when I have seen Brighton against us I have not been as impressed as I expected to be and expected them to play more evenly with us, and it is also true that it's not the same to do this at a lower expectation club where people are quick to praise your football and the pressure of losing or drawing doesn't weigh too highly, reminds me a bit of Setién at Las Palmas and Betis and how he found things quite differently at Barça, a manager I recently rated and who it turns out I overrated; that said there are big differences between Setién and Potter, and I think Potter is a better manager / younger and more up to date and flexible, but still, it's a comparison that gives me a bit of hesitation).
It's not under-discussed because frankly no one cares anymore at this stage. Implementing any style for the sake of implementing said style at the expense of results is pointless. Playing a reactive style of football, when it suits they players you have at your disposal and achieves results, is a perfectly valid way to play football. It's no better or worse than any other style. Similar critiques can also be levelled at this "proposing" style of football you're championing here. When you fixate yourself with that level of rigidity it still means when teams figure you out you have nowhere to go. I've (and I'm sure most other people) have lost count of these times this has happened to Pep managed teams.

And just a couple of other points. Simeone has achieved better recent CL results with his "reactive" style of football than Pep has in recent times. Also, people would be a lot more patience with Arteta needing time to implement this so called "proposing football" if after nearly 2 years with which to implement it we saw at least SOME fruits of that labour. We play some of the worst football in the league, hands down. And Arteta did not implement a "reactive, counter-attacking" early on, he only used that style of ball in big games/against better teams. Which is more or less what he still does, (when you can ascertain some semblance of a play style from the mess Arteta puts out). He had couple of stand out RESULTS (operative word here since some of the performances were still terrible and heavily fortunate like the home PL win against Liverpool) with in in his 1st season, but he also had some terrible ones. The Sp**s game a clear example of that, completely outsmarted by Mourinho to an embarrassing degree. So it's no different to his current approach as well.

Not I, and just because you see the comparison doesn't mean I do (I don't). Klopp I won't even get into because people who were doubting his ability are very strange, Tuchel I always rated, it's been clear from the moment he took over Dortmund he's a very tactically adept manager, and not inflexible or limited to one style of play / scheme as Conte is.

Really? Seemed your faith wavered at least little in December of last year when he was having some poor results


Regardless, that part of my comment genuinely was aimed at you or was it about a direct comparison between Klopp, Tuchel and Conte's play styles. It was about their pedigree as winning managers, something we've lacked for years.

You all repeat this but it doesn't do anything to address the legitimate concerns I raise with him.
As I said at the very start of this post, how do expect people to have a good faith, prolonged and serious discussion with you about Conte when you childishly handwave away his PL win because it doesn't conform to your pre-conceived narrative about him


The fact his major success as a manager comes in Serie A and in a weak-ish PL still very much in transition.
He's only managed in Serie A and the PL though. This point might have merit if he'd managed in other leagues/situations and failed and thus the juxtaposition could be posited but he literally hasn't.


When the stakes / climate has been a bit higher / more difficult, he has struggled, as in his second season and in the CL, where his teams have really struggled. Seeing the lack of success of Serie A managers like Sarri in the PL raises significant concerns for me, simply put it is in an inferior league (with extremely different tactical conditions to the current PL), and it is not like his work with Inter and Juve is comparable to that of Gasperini at Atalanta where he's got a club undeniably pushing above its weight. Those were big money projects with top clubs where he got very nice results out of them in that league.

Combine this with my concerns about style, and you can see why I have my doubts and prefer other options, and think that Conte is overrated on this forum, where people declare him a world class manager with the same certainty that we would say Messi is world class.
Since making the step-up into elite management in 2011 he's won 4 Serie A titles, a PL and an FA Cup. He's won numerous personal accolades in terms of league manager of the year and even world manager of the year etc.. He also doesn't have a below 62% winning in the 3 clubs in managed in that time frame. In world football iirc only Pep better that and Tuchel matches it. You don't like "world class", fine, it can be a bit of a nebulas term anyway from person to person, but whatever adjective you want to use to describe him it's going to be a positive and complimentary one.

I agree that he's had pretty bad performances in European football. I agree that he's a volatile manager when things don't go exactly his way (but I actually think we need that right now) and I also agree that if you're a sycophant of a certain style of football that you're not going to get that from him. (And one which you haven't surprisingly mentioned is I still think he has at least a little question mark over his head in terms of whether he can make consistently good big deal transfers). These either aren't issue for me personally or if they are I don't see them as particular major but I can fully appreciate if you or anyone else has these concerns, totally valid. But the difference is I'm acknowledging his shortcomings whilst also saying that for me his positives outweigh his negatives pretty easily, whilst with you you're simply completely dismissing literally every achievement he's ever attained in the game as if they/he's nothing. It's just not how a rationale discussion is had.

For me it boils down to:

Is he significantly better than the current manager we have? A resounding and unquestionable yes.

Is he better than the managers we've had over the past ~5 or so years? Yes.

Is he hypothetically capable of achieving the reasonable goals we've should be setting this club, which is to make top 4? Yes.

Can he in general make us a more competitive and respectable side? Yes.

So I see no compelling reason not to go for an available manager like him. Given complete and utter carte blanche of absolutely every manager in world football would Conte be my 1st pick? No, but he'd still at least be in the leading group of candidates and honestly currently I can't think of a single available or as realistically attainable manager as him who's better.
 

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