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Martin Ødegaard: El Capitanø

DasBootist

Well-Known Member
To be honest I wasn't that impressed with his first 6 months here. But it's normal a young player to a new league.

When I used to watch Buendia play for Norwich he always looked like he had another level or two in him. I think he was breaking into the national team too.

Needless to say I was wrong at the time. I'm really happy we got Ødegaard. Has been brilliant this season as has everyone. And Buendia has been crap.
His loan spell was pivotal for Arsenal getting him at such a good price. Ødegaard is a smart dude
 

GunnerBP

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Deciding to ditch Real Madrid for Arsenal is the best career move he has made. I've always maintained that he has been very poorly advised, unlike Haaland. Haaland used clubs as stepping stones to advance his career bit by bit. Ødegaard went for the biggest club they could find.

To go to Real Madrid, of all clubs, when you need to develop as a young player was a very poor choice. Fortunately, he took the right decision when he came here.

I think there is more to come from him, and more to come from this Arsenal team. Hopefully...there is some more to come from Edu in January too...
In hindsight, Ødegaard's move to Real Madrid didn't work out, but comparing it to Haaland is apples and oranges.

Ødegaard moved to Real Madrid when he was 16 and he was arguably the most sought after young player in Europe. Haaland didn't move to RB Salzburg until he was 18, and he wasn't rated as highly as Ødegaard.

Also, when Ødegaard moved to Real Madrid, the deal was for him to join the B team, or Castilla, and train with the first team. At the time, Zidane was the Castilla coach. He moved to the best team in the world with the plan to move to the reserves with a clear pathway to the first team, and his coach would be one of the best midfielders in the history of the game. That move makes sense.

Frankly, his biggest impediment at Real was probably Modric's unprecedented longevity. Modric is 37 and he has been starting for Real Madrid for over a decade. I'm sure everyone thought Ødegaard could be Modric's successor, and few people expected Modric to play at the highest level for this long.

Since Modric's form never dipped, Real Madrid needed to loan Ødegaard to get minutes. Two seasons in the Eredivisie with Heerenveen and then Vitesse Arnhem, and then one season in La Liga with Real Sociedad were smart loans for him. Then he came back to Real Madrid and still couldn't start over Modric. Not a big surprise. He then went on loan with us, and the rest is history.

Right now, Ødegaard is 23 and Haaland is 22, and they're both at the right clubs. Haaland's path has been more linear, but Ødegaard's still makes sense.
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
Don't get why the guy gets so much stick on here.

He doesn’t, which is ironically the stick he does get (that he doesn’t get any stick). It’s more notable when you see fringes get pages and pages in comparison.

He’s notched up a bunch of nothing games and been subbed off at the 70-80th mark quite a bit for a captain. You could 100% get stick for a lot less on here.
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
13 games in and he’s already one off from last season’s haul of 7.

I said it would be nice if he could reach 10 which would already be better than most, but looks like he could notch a dozen this season no probs.
 

DJ_Markstar

Based and Artetapilled

Player:Martinelli
He's getting a lot of criticism for poor shooting but he's 1 in 2 in the league as an AM so far which is world class numbers for a CF, don't think he's the best pure striker of a ball like a Lampard or whatever (obviously) but we've got a very good heartbeat player in Ødegaard who seems to have a knack for scoring important goals.

Although he's miles off an Özil or a Fabregas creatively he does an awful lot of the same things right that Fabregas did for us, including the ability to control a game (both tempo and possession) as well as showing high workrate. He also complements the pressing system that we do so well as a unit. I've been delighted with him this season tbh, not sure where the criticism is coming from but ofc there's room for improvement, too.
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
Frankly, his biggest impediment at Real was probably Modric's unprecedented longevity. Modric is 37 and he has been starting for Real Madrid for over a decade. I'm sure everyone thought Ødegaard could be Modric's successor, and few people expected Modric to play at the highest level for this long.

Since Modric's form never dipped, Real Madrid needed to loan Ødegaard to get minutes. Two seasons in the Eredivisie with Heerenveen and then Vitesse Arnhem, and then one season in La Liga with Real Sociedad were smart loans for him. Then he came back to Real Madrid and still couldn't start over Modric. Not a big surprise. He then went on loan with us, and the rest is history.
I agree with the post in spirit (worse things than getting fine, well-chosen loans to Holland and la Real for your development, and learning in one of the best environments at Castilla / Madrid first team training) but I will say that it was more than Modric's unprecedented longevity.

The bolded isn't quite true, at least among madridistas, and it would seem Zidane. In 20-21 there were doubts about Modric's form that autumn and summer when Ødegaard was back from la Real, and the team brought him back from la Real a season earlier than everyone expected (something la Real will not have been happy with, as he was a massive part of their team) with the clear idea to give him a chance to be a big part of their plans.

Between injuries and people not being impressed in the chances he was given, that didn't work out. But I would say that it was more untimely injuries + lack of patience around the club + Ødegaard's sense that he wasn't rated by Zidane and the club that led to him asking to leave, rather than a Modric thing.

Tbh I don't think anyone at the club thought at that moment that Modric would still be doing what he was doing that spring much less the season after much less now, when Ødegaard left them, and I can tell you no madridista I know was bothered at all about losing Ødegaard, or thought he had potential to be anything more than what they said, in their typically arrogant words, 'an Arsenal level player.' The feeling from everyone I know, and it is assumed Zidane and the club, is that he wasn't quite Madrid level.

The truth of the matter is that Madrid is an extremely well run club who knows it has nothing to lose and all to gain (€€€) when they let go of players like Ødegaard, Varane, Ramos (at his age, at least), Ronaldo. Rarely has it not worked out for them. Even Özil, who seemed to most of us a player they should not be letting go, or di María, supposed no problem. So yeah, when Madrid loaned Ødegaard to us, and then sold him, no one really batted an eye, and everyone was pretty pleased with the fee (as were we).
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
He's getting a lot of criticism for poor shooting but he's 1 in 2 in the league as an AM so far which is world class numbers for a CF, don't think he's the best pure striker of a ball like a Lampard or whatever (obviously) but we've got a very good heartbeat player in Ødegaard who seems to have a knack for scoring important goals.

Although he's miles off an Özil or a Fabregas creatively he does an awful lot of the same things right that Fabregas did for us, including the ability to control a game (both tempo and possession) as well as showing high workrate. He also complements the pressing system that we do so well as a unit. I've been delighted with him this season tbh, not sure where the criticism is coming from but ofc there's room for improvement, too.

So...

Saka:
3 npG to 3.8 xG
Last season-- 9 npG to 10.2 npxG

Martinelli:
5 npG to 3.0 npxG
Last season--5 npG to 7.6 npxG

Jesus:
5 npG to 7.4 npxG
Last season--7 npG to 10.0 npxG

Ødegaard:
4 npG to 2.6 npxG
Last season-- 7 npG to 5.2 npxG

Didn't do Xhaka but I'm guessing he's quite outdoing his xG so far.

Way too small a sample to judge on this season but Saka and Jesus seem more or less in their line, ie it does seem a real thing that they're below average finishers, and Martinelli reversing his trend from last season, so perhaps he is improving as a finisher or perhaps it's just luck and small samples, or perhaps it's both.

Ødegaard would seem to be a far better finisher than people give him credit for, I'm saying this because he's outperformed his xG in every season there is data for it (la Real 4 npG to 3 npxG, Vitesse 7 to 4.6). Of course being a good finisher and a good scorer have little to do with each other.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Ødegaard is a better goal scorer (and certainly finisher) than he is given credit for, at this point. The xG and G differential this season now sits at 6 Gs to 4.1 xG.
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland



Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Ødegaard is a better goal scorer (and certainly finisher) than he is given credit for, at this point. The xG and G differential this season now sits at 6 Gs to 4.1 xG.
This season and the last Ødegaard seems to score better than his xG. The problem with him in EPL has always been that he takes too long to shoot, so there will be blocks. But he needs to shoot once in a while even only to keep defenders guessing.

Hmm, should I tag Nacho? 7th October 2021:

I'm not sure where are you pulling that he isn't a goal threat, as he has a very good shot. He's no Özil who can only kick the ball towards the field to bounce it to goal.

Anyway, we have to remember he hasn't even played a full year in EPL, and usually any player is given a year to adjust before attacking them too much.

You really don't rate Ødegaard it seems in almost any aspect, so we'll see.
https://arsenal-mania.com/forum/threads/martin-Ødegaard-bat-tery-man.35205/post-5677045
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
This season and the last Ødegaard seems to score better than his xG. The problem with him in EPL has always been that he takes too long to shoot, so there will be blocks. But he needs to shoot once in a while even only to keep defenders guessing.

Hmm, should I tag Nacho? 7th October 2021:


I will not have any negative comments on that ridiculous Özil technique, mate, it's absolute madness and I know no one who can actually replicate it in a training situation, much less a game. I still struggle to wrap my head around the idea he actually did it on purpose.

I actually think Özil and Ødegaard are pretty similar goal scoring and finishing wise (unfortunately xG on FBref only goes as far back as 2017-18, but there we have 4 to 4.4, 5 to 1.7, and 1 to 1.4, so 10 npGs to 7.5 npxG in the twilight of his career). Don't have much of that long shot that fans and especially british fans love to see in their 10, but are better finishers than given credit for. Özil was better at knowing when to shoot or when to pass because Özil was a god and the best of his generation of final third decision making, but Ødegaard while not quite that level isn't bad at that and is getting better. We know what Ødegaard is better at (everything in the defensive phase, perhaps getting into goal scoring positions, though so many unequal factors to make a good comparison).
 

db10_therza

🎵 Edu getting rickrolled 🎵
Trusted ⭐

Country: Bangladesh

Player:Martinelli
I will not have any negative comments on that ridiculous Özil technique, mate, it's absolute madness and I know no one who can actually replicate it in a training situation, much less a game. I still struggle to wrap my head around the idea he actually did it on purpose.

I actually think Özil and Ødegaard are pretty similar goal scoring and finishing wise (unfortunately xG on FBref only goes as far back as 2017-18, but there we have 4 to 4.4, 5 to 1.7, and 1 to 1.4, so 10 npGs to 7.5 npxG in the twilight of his career). Don't have much of that long shot that fans and especially british fans love to see in their 10, but are better finishers than given credit for. Özil was better at knowing when to shoot or when to pass because Özil was a god and the best of his generation of final third decision making, but Ødegaard while not quite that level isn't bad at that and is getting better. We know what Ødegaard is better at (everything in the defensive phase, perhaps getting into goal scoring positions, though so many unequal factors to make a good comparison).
I tried replicating it once in a 5 a side game. Almost broke my ankle. Ffing insane.
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
I will not have any negative comments on that ridiculous Özil technique, mate, it's absolute madness and I know no one who can actually replicate it in a training situation, much less a game. I still struggle to wrap my head around the idea he actually did it on purpose.

I actually think Özil and Ødegaard are pretty similar goal scoring and finishing wise (unfortunately xG on FBref only goes as far back as 2017-18, but there we have 4 to 4.4, 5 to 1.7, and 1 to 1.4, so 10 npGs to 7.5 npxG in the twilight of his career). Don't have much of that long shot that fans and especially british fans love to see in their 10, but are better finishers than given credit for. Özil was better at knowing when to shoot or when to pass because Özil was a god and the best of his generation of final third decision making, but Ødegaard while not quite that level isn't bad at that and is getting better. We know what Ødegaard is better at (everything in the defensive phase, perhaps getting into goal scoring positions, though so many unequal factors to make a good comparison).
Does it go only to 2017-2018? There's no warning or nothing about it in the comparison page. This is pretty dangerous for comparisons if it's skewed and there is no warning.

Anyway, that skill of Özil's was great and I loved it. It was just a joke, because the other poster didn't rate Ødegaard's goal threat at all, so I made a comparison.

But yeah, Özil wasn't a bad finisher, just didn't have much power in it or didn't do long shots like Ødegaard does and can.

It can be a huge asset if a playmaker keeps the defenders guessing all the time if he will shoot, rather than the assumption is that he will pass it anyway. Long shots in this sense can be very important too.

 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
I will not have any negative comments on that ridiculous Özil technique, mate, it's absolute madness and I know no one who can actually replicate it in a training situation, much less a game. I still struggle to wrap my head around the idea he actually did it on purpose.

I actually think Özil and Ødegaard are pretty similar goal scoring and finishing wise (unfortunately xG on FBref only goes as far back as 2017-18, but there we have 4 to 4.4, 5 to 1.7, and 1 to 1.4, so 10 npGs to 7.5 npxG in the twilight of his career). Don't have much of that long shot that fans and especially british fans love to see in their 10, but are better finishers than given credit for. Özil was better at knowing when to shoot or when to pass because Özil was a god and the best of his generation of final third decision making, but Ødegaard while not quite that level isn't bad at that and is getting better. We know what Ødegaard is better at (everything in the defensive phase, perhaps getting into goal scoring positions, though so many unequal factors to make a good comparison).
The finish for the second goal vs wolves was fabulous. He assessed his options and punished perfectly, to me, it’s an area he can improve in
 

GoonerJeeves

Established Member
Trusted ⭐

Country: Norway
He had a very solid game tonight as Norway beat Ireland 2-1. I expect him to play the game on Sunday when Norway meets Finland.
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
Does it go only to 2017-2018? There's no warning or nothing about it in the comparison page. This is pretty dangerous for comparisons if it's skewed and there is no warning.

Anyway, that skill of Özil's was great and I loved it. It was just a joke, because the other poster didn't rate Ødegaard's goal threat at all, so I made a comparison.

But yeah, Özil wasn't a bad finisher, just didn't have much power in it or didn't do long shots like Ødegaard does and can.

It can be a huge asset if a playmaker keeps the defenders guessing all the time if he will shoot, rather than the assumption is that he will pass it anyway. Long shots in this sense can be very important too.

Yeah, only goes to 17-18, or else those 33 npG to 7.5 xG at Arsenal would've made him the best finisher of all time 🤣

No, I know you were joking, I was being light-hearted too.

I'm not so sure Özil didn't have a long shot like Ode has shown, I seem to remember a few goals from distance early in his career with Bremen and Madrid and Germany, but I'm a bit too lazy to go to YouTube and confirm (****ing hell I'm getting old, Özil arriving at Madrid feels like it should be yesterday but it's actually almost 15 years ago 😭).

Re: the bolded honestly I have my doubts about this, but it's just suspicions / intuitions without much basis. I think the natural trajectory for players like Özil and Ødegaard is to take a bit more of those long shots earlier in their career, but continue maturing and realising the closer the shot and the more the right pass is made using the feint of that shot the better (while obviously, like most top playmakers of their type, already having a natural sense of this from the beginning). That's my feeling from playing too and from the data obviously we have about shot selection and distance, but it's true that it's really hard to quantify what kind of value having defenders fear that long shot has, and it's true that that feint has more value if defenders are really worried about you shooting.

Dunno, like other parts of Ødegaard's game, it's something he can improve...I think the shots I would most like him to improve upon are the ones more toward the edge of the box centrally, or just on the edge, inside the half-moon, like one he took against Liverpool in a really dangerous area and put right at the keeper, those are the ones that are really worth taking (or ones he's skied on cut backs and first time shots in those areas) and add a lot of value if you increase your quality from there (though, again, looking at Ode's xG, I wonder from an objective standpoint how much room there is for improvement there, if any, we'll see as samples get bigger and bigger). But tbh the most value added is in always making the right decision or making it say 95%+ of the time as we might say for Özil...for example there was a moment against Chelsea--I think?--where he shot instead of making a pass to Saka in a far better position that really pissed me off, and there's more value in having a playmaker who always makes the right decision to give Saka that pass than it is in having a playmaker outscores his xG by 200% (are there players that do it by 300% or 400%? Objective statistics seem to tell us no--because if there were just on the weight of these shots they'd outscore their xG by a few goals a season--but when you consider that the goal probabilities are probably like 10% at most from that position, it certainly feels like people like De Bruyne or Valverde this season would be...is it that De Bruyne outperforms his xG exponentially on a season to season basis from those positions, but then underperforms it exponentially in closer situations in the box, so it evens out? Questions only someone with access to Opta data can answer...interesting that de Bruyne has 43 npGs to 27.9 npxG, compared to Lewa's for example 147 npGs to 142 npxG since FBRef has data, so perhaps indeed, there's more scope for attacking midfielders to outperform their xG for this very reason...or perhaps it's just small sample size effects, due to them shooting less than forwards, which would make this Ode conversation a bit useless...) from the position I'm talking about in the Liverpool game, which might be worth a goal or two more a season than the player who just meets his xG or scores at a 90% rate of his xG from that position

I tried replicating it once in a 5 a side game. Almost broke my ankle. Ffing insane.
It's absolute madness, mate, when I say I still struggle to wrap my head around it I mean it--I only believe it because Wenger says he really means it and I guess he must do it in training--I don't know if it's only something you can do with a certain type of grass or what (it feels like if anything it would be easier on the synthetic fields I've mostly tried it on), because I can't replicate anything like it nor can anyone I know, I actually asked a mate of mine who played for Inter Movistar (pro futsal team here in Madrid) who is probably the most technical gifted player I've ever played with (like many futsal players who also grew up playing pro football or in big academies as or more technically gifted than a lot of top level players) to try it after showing him a video, and he gave it a few tries and said 'no ****ing way.'

I really would love to ask Santi Cazorla how Özil did it in training, why he can do it and Santi can't if Santi can't, and if it's just about some weird ****ing genetic quirk in Özil's leg, lol, because I honestly don't get it.
 

db10_therza

🎵 Edu getting rickrolled 🎵
Trusted ⭐

Country: Bangladesh

Player:Martinelli
It's absolute madness, mate, when I say I still struggle to wrap my head around it I mean it--I only believe it because Wenger says he really means it and I guess he must do it in training--I don't know if it's only something you can do with a certain type of grass or what (it feels like if anything it would be easier on the synthetic fields I've mostly tried it on), because I can't replicate anything like it nor can anyone I know, I actually asked a mate of mine who played for Inter Movistar (pro futsal team here in Madrid) who is probably the most technical gifted player I've ever played with (like many futsal players who also grew up playing pro football or in big academies as or more technically gifted than a lot of top level players) to try it after showing him a video, and he gave it a few tries and said 'no ****ing way.'

I really would love to ask Santi Cazorla how Özil did it in training, why he can do it and Santi can't if Santi can't, and if it's just about some weird ****ing genetic quirk in Özil's leg, lol, because I honestly don't get it.

Since the day I tried it and fell over writhing in pain I've actually devoted some time to thinking about the mechanics. I kind of came over the ball a bit and struck it too 'vertically'. To pull it off you need to perfectly strike the ball maybe 10 degrees up from the horizontal and your foot needs to be going almost vertically down. You cannot 'follow' through either so you have to kick into the ground and stop your kick so you dont injure yourself. There's so many things you have to pull off, it would be hard with a dead ball. How he used to do with a moving ball i have no fkn idea.
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
Yeah, only goes to 17-18, or else those 33 npG to 7.5 xG at Arsenal would've made him the best finisher of all time 🤣

No, I know you were joking, I was being light-hearted too.

I'm not so sure Özil didn't have a long shot like Ode has shown, I seem to remember a few goals from distance early in his career with Bremen and Madrid and Germany, but I'm a bit too lazy to go to YouTube and confirm (****ing hell I'm getting old, Özil arriving at Madrid feels like it should be yesterday but it's actually almost 15 years ago 😭).

Re: the bolded honestly I have my doubts about this, but it's just suspicions / intuitions without much basis. I think the natural trajectory for players like Özil and Ødegaard is to take a bit more of those long shots earlier in their career, but continue maturing and realising the closer the shot and the more the right pass is made using the feint of that shot the better (while obviously, like most top playmakers of their type, already having a natural sense of this from the beginning). That's my feeling from playing too and from the data obviously we have about shot selection and distance, but it's true that it's really hard to quantify what kind of value having defenders fear that long shot has, and it's true that that feint has more value if defenders are really worried about you shooting.

Dunno, like other parts of Ødegaard's game, it's something he can improve...I think the shots I would most like him to improve upon are the ones more toward the edge of the box centrally, or just on the edge, inside the half-moon, like one he took against Liverpool in a really dangerous area and put right at the keeper, those are the ones that are really worth taking (or ones he's skied on cut backs and first time shots in those areas) and add a lot of value if you increase your quality from there (though, again, looking at Ode's xG, I wonder from an objective standpoint how much room there is for improvement there, if any, we'll see as samples get bigger and bigger). But tbh the most value added is in always making the right decision or making it say 95%+ of the time as we might say for Özil...for example there was a moment against Chelsea--I think?--where he shot instead of making a pass to Saka in a far better position that really pissed me off, and there's more value in having a playmaker who always makes the right decision to give Saka that pass than it is in having a playmaker outscores his xG by 200% (are there players that do it by 300% or 400%? Objective statistics seem to tell us no--because if there were just on the weight of these shots they'd outscore their xG by a few goals a season--but when you consider that the goal probabilities are probably like 10% at most from that position, it certainly feels like people like De Bruyne or Valverde this season would be...is it that De Bruyne outperforms his xG exponentially on a season to season basis from those positions, but then underperforms it exponentially in closer situations in the box, so it evens out? Questions only someone with access to Opta data can answer...interesting that de Bruyne has 43 npGs to 27.9 npxG, compared to Lewa's for example 147 npGs to 142 npxG since FBRef has data, so perhaps indeed, there's more scope for attacking midfielders to outperform their xG for this very reason...or perhaps it's just small sample size effects, due to them shooting less than forwards, which would make this Ode conversation a bit useless...) from the position I'm talking about in the Liverpool game, which might be worth a goal or two more a season than the player who just meets his xG or scores at a 90% rate of his xG from that position


It's absolute madness, mate, when I say I still struggle to wrap my head around it I mean it--I only believe it because Wenger says he really means it and I guess he must do it in training--I don't know if it's only something you can do with a certain type of grass or what (it feels like if anything it would be easier on the synthetic fields I've mostly tried it on), because I can't replicate anything like it nor can anyone I know, I actually asked a mate of mine who played for Inter Movistar (pro futsal team here in Madrid) who is probably the most technical gifted player I've ever played with (like many futsal players who also grew up playing pro football or in big academies as or more technically gifted than a lot of top level players) to try it after showing him a video, and he gave it a few tries and said 'no ****ing way.'

I really would love to ask Santi Cazorla how Özil did it in training, why he can do it and Santi can't if Santi can't, and if it's just about some weird ****ing genetic quirk in Özil's leg, lol, because I honestly don't get it.
Long text, so not sure if I understood all. But yeah I don't mean "long long shots", I mean just outside of the box or a couple meters from it. Pretty sure Arteta doesn't support shooting from too long distance. I can't remember Özil having a powerful shot like Ødegaard.

Now that we are talking Özil, what is your opinion on why did Özil look like dropping dribbling past players like he did in his younger days? To guarantee keeping possession? Because I think he was quite electric winger when young, and seemed to change later.
 
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