Mesut Özil: Time to Move Ön?

[Trilly]

Yeah... not excusing him or anything but I would never want to see our best counter attacking player winning the ball after tracking back and then passing it forward, especially to Ramsey.

As one of the best receiver and creator of incisive passes, I would want him to be the receiver of any counter attacks at the final third or advanced position of the team.

Agree. There's definitely other aspects to his game that have gotten him criticism but I think all of these things would be overlooked if we addressed the midfield issue.

Nobody complained about his body language or lack of intensity during 15/16.

 

[Arsenal1508]

So the argument is the other players are crap, so Özil becomes crap.

What a horseshit argument.

Great players make others around them better. Why do you think Barcelona don't look scary whenever Messi is absent?
Henry was brilliant at this too.

Özil is very Zidanesque...though he suffers the opposite problem. Zidane showed up for the big matches, which masked his ineffectivness against small teams.

 

[Zyrth]

So the argument is the other players are crap, so Özil becomes crap.

What a horseshit argument.

Great players make others around them better. Why do you think Barcelona don't look scary whenever Messi is absent?
Henry was brilliant at this too.

Özil is very Zidanesque...though he suffers the opposite problem. Zidane showed up for the big matches, which masked his ineffectivness against small teams.

Nope. Not saying that Özil's surrounded by crap. But rather how dysfunctional the midfield is. I like Ramsey and Xhaka personally. But I'm ready to admit that at present if unaddressed, their instincts are preventing them from becoming a top midfield duo.

Zidane could weave his magic and do the impossible because he had a good midfield to support him, like Makalele. Players that actually knew their job. Once that's covered, he could take risk and do more.

Sure, Özil might not have fancy tricks to his repertoire, who knows, but I'm sure if our midfield actually behaves like a midfield and not a gaping hole that does nothing, he would play differently.

 

[tcahill]

So the argument is the other players are crap, so Özil becomes crap.

What a horseshit argument.

Great players make others around them better. Why do you think Barcelona don't look scary whenever Messi is absent?
Henry was brilliant at this too.

Özil is very Zidanesque...though he suffers the opposite problem. Zidane showed up for the big matches, which masked his ineffectivness against small teams.

Özil can turn a good team into a world class team. What he can't do (at least on a consistent basis) is turn an average team into an good team.

It's no coincidence that his best form is when he has a coherent midfield behind him (Santi and Coq for example).

 

[karl]

Özil can turn a good team into a world class team. What he can't do (at least on a consistent basis) is turn an average team into an good team.

It's no coincidence that his best form is when he has a coherent midfield behind him (Santi and Coq for example).

You are right there and those who expect Bergkamp are wasting their time.

I just think he is the wrong fit for this team and we would have been better off cashing in a while back and using the money to get that imposing central midfielder. Then Ramsey could take up the position he really wants and we wouldn't be left with huge gaps in the middle of the field.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

I had this debate with someone a few weeks ago. They said something like " Insert name....doesn't understand football because they said Özil doesn't do enough off the ball". I said " in this team, in front of Xhaka/Ramsey Özil has to do more off the ball, in front of Vieira/Gilberto he wouldn't have to do as much".

I do think, as we all do, he's had his world-class games and periods however those who support him 100% as some sort of god playing in a team that's not right for him imo isn't right. There is a middle ground i.e his could be supported better however he's also at fault for some of his performances, the same way Xhaka, Coquelin and all the players are.

I think the likes of RVP and Cesc earned the right for fans to say "we just need a couple more" to support them and push on. I don't think Özil's earned that right completely. We all know the good he's done, but some of the games where he just hasn't turned up can't be excused. It's why Neville had a go at Liverpool when he saw Özil chase a ball down and then turn and complain and say where are the rest of you, he hasn't earned that right to do that.

And in some games, sticking him on the RW but in a free/floating role in a 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 wouldn't be the worse thing for him. He did it for Madrid and did well. Likewise some sort of midfield diamond i.e Xhaka, Ramsey, Elneny with Özil in front and behind two forwards would also suit him better.

 

[Zyrth]

You are right there and those who expect Bergkamp are wasting their time.

I just think he is the wrong fit for this team and we would have been better off cashing in a while back and using the money to get that imposing central midfielder. Then Ramsey could take up the position he really wants and we wouldn't be left with huge gaps in the middle of the field.

or we could get that imposing midfielder and deploy Özil as he is. Ramsey is a decent player but he's not better than Özil IMO.

 

[Bergkamp a Dutch Master]

Also, I do recall Bergy having a proper midfield supporting him; Petit + Vieira and Vieira + Gilberto.

I'm bowing and scraping at the very mention.....

 

[Zyrth]

I'm bowing and scraping at the very mention.....

Bossed the midfield they did.

We sure as hell didn't need Pires to chip in with the defensive duties too eh? Because we all know how Pires is, but that didn't get him any stick now did it? Funny how the pundits turn on Özil for exactly the same characteristics.

 

[bojed]

Bossed the midfield they did.

We sure as hell didn't need Pires to chip in with the defensive duties too eh? Because we all know how Pires is, but that didn't get him any stick now did it? Funny how the pundits turn on Özil for exactly the same characteristics.

Pires' one and only proper tackle in his football career was back in 2006 when he went full in hard on Vieira and won the ball off his former skipper which consequently resulted in our first goal against Juventus in the CL, scored by the then-prince of Arsenal assisted by non-other than the King himself - Thierry Henry.

It was magical.

Prior to that, why bother doing defensive work when you have Paddy-Petit/Gilberto and Cashley watching your back? That's why we old farts hold Pires dear to our hearts.

 

[Zyrth]

Pires' one and only proper ackle in his football career was back in 2006 when he went full in hard on Vieira and won the ball off his former skipper which consequently resulted in our first goal against Juventus in the CL, scored by the then-prince of Arsenal assisted by non-other than the King himself - Thierry Henry.

It was magical.

Prior to that, why bother doing defensive work when you have Paddy-Petit/Gilberto and Cashley watching your back? That's why we old farts hold Pires dear to our hearts.

Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed that moment. Caught Vieira completely by surprise there.

And that's exactly my point, it's not that Özil shirks all defensive responsibilities too. He prolly could do more with his runs to cut out passing lanes when we are trying to recover the ball but I still wouldn't want him tracking back and messing up the formation to launch a successful counter.

 

[Trilly]

Özil can turn a good team into a world class team. What he can't do (at least on a consistent basis) is turn an average team into an good team.

It's no coincidence that his best form is when he has a coherent midfield behind him (Santi and Coq for example).

Sticky this.

He's a world class player just in a different way to Sanchez. Sanchez has the explosiveness, risky mentality and shooting ability to drag an average side.
Özil is (or was) world class due to his passing ability, intelligent movement and decision making in the final third, those skills don't translate well to carrying a team.

He's the cherry on top.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Someone shoot Paul Merson. What an absolute ****ing bellend!

 

[Wilshere1010]

It is not that Özil isn't surrounded by quality players, far from it.
But the problem lies in that he is backed up by a dysfunctional midfield.

IMO, we do not have a proper functioning midfield that is capable and quick to link up from midfield to attack, nor are they capable of winning the ball and breaking up play. Our midfield has quality players but they are not performing to their role and function. Not a knock on either of Xhaka or Ramsey, but their instinct and positioning is beyond questionable. Think back on the breakthrough season for Coq . He showed tactical awareness to always cover a huge zone in between midfield and defense, the win against Man ****ty comes into mind, and how did that worked out for us?

So, obviously everyone would improve if the entire team is filled with world class players of their respective positions and roles, but I'm sure we will not be so divisive on our opinions of Özil if we have a proper functioning team.

It's interesting you chose the City victory because if we're thinking of the same one, Coq was part of a 3 in midfield with Ramsey and Santi. Özil wasn't in the team that day, but it was a perfect away performance against a big team. We were solid with that midfield, and ruthless with our chances.

The fact we haven't really seen it again despite it working so well is frustrating, but I think many of us would want us to try that again. If Özil has to move to the wing then so be it, and if not he should start on the bench.

If Özil can't play to his best with this dysfunctional midfield, why not change our midfield around so it can be as functional as it can with what we have, regardless if that suits Özil or not.

 

[Jury]

Sticky this.

He's a world class player just in a different way to Sanchez. Sanchez has the explosiveness, risky mentality and shooting ability to drag an average side.
Özil is (or was) world class due to his passing ability, intelligent movement and decision making in the final third, those skills don't translate well to carrying a team.

He's the cherry on top.

Sounds convenient to me... What would you say happened at Real Madrid then? If he is the cherry on top, what's Bale? The tree that bares the cherries?

Sticky that...







In yer battyole.

 

[Jury]

@Trilly

Also, can you explain how Alexis managed a goal every other game from the wing for Barcelona, if he's just the type to drag an average side? Because I think he does rather well when he's surrounded by
decent players too... He just produces no matter what or where... doesn't he?

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

@Trilly

Also, can you explain how Alexis managed a goal every other game from the wing for Barcelona, if he's just the type to drag an average side? Because I think he does rather well when he's surrounded by
decent players too... He just produces no matter what or where... doesn't he?

It's an interesting debate.

I think Bergkamp was on another planet. I would take Pires over Özil regardless of the midfield support.

And on the discussion, another in my opinion undisputable opinion is that Alexis would still perform and create headlines playing for Burnley, everyone would be raving about him. Same as others who have stood out in lesser teams, and then moved on. I think Özil would be dropped if he turned up at Burnley or Watford.

It's an interesting one, because a lot of players around the world would say they'll perform better under certain circumstances i.e given a free role, no defensive responsibilities or playing with certain teammates. You give that power to Robbie Savage and they'll be a joke. You give that power to Alexis, Hazard, Neymar, Messi and they excel. I don't think Özil's earned that right. He's been moved into the No 10 role, he's had the freedom of the park, but he hasn't done it consistently enough, so he's just become another team member. I wouldn't waste my time building the team around him, giving him all the support in the world so he can excel because he'll just do it when he wants. When the going gets tough away to Bayern, Liverpool, Chelsea, City he'll go missing, but he'll turn it on at home to Bournemouth or away to Ludogrets.

 

[Gooner n Proud]

It's an interesting debate.

I think Bergkamp was on another planet. I would take Pires over Özil regardless of the midfield support.

And on the discussion, another in my opinion undisputable opinion is that Alexis would still perform and create headlines playing for Burnley, everyone would be raving about him. Same as others who have stood out in lesser teams, and then moved on. I think Özil would be dropped if he turned up at Burnley or Watford.

It's an interesting one, because a lot of players around the world would say they'll perform better under certain circumstances i.e given a free role, no defensive responsibilities or playing with certain teammates. You give that power to Robbie Savage and they'll be a joke. You give that power to Alexis, Hazard, Neymar, Messi and they excel. I don't think Özil's earned that right. He's been moved into the No 10 role, he's had the freedom of the park, but he hasn't done it consistently enough, so he's just become another team member. I wouldn't waste my time building the team around him, giving him all the support in the world so he can excel because he'll just do it when he wants. When the going gets tough away to Bayern, Liverpool, Chelsea, City he'll go missing, but he'll turn it on at home to Bournemouth or away to Ludogrets.

Thats mainly due to teammates and manager being mediocre in these games/

 

[Jojoba]

Bossed the midfield they did.

We sure as hell didn't need Pires to chip in with the defensive duties too eh? Because we all know how Pires is, but that didn't get him any stick now did it? Funny how the pundits turn on Özil for exactly the same characteristics.

The problem with Özil is that he can't do this!!!!
We could all appreciate PIRES because he would win us games by scoring crucial goals on top of providing assists.. He never was a anonymous as Özil. If Özil's style was not so one dimensional and had the same attributes as pires then may be he would not be criticised the way he seems to be. He needs to be able to do more than one thing. Just creating chances is not enough..

 

[Trilly]

@Trilly

Also, can you explain how Alexis managed a goal every other game from the wing for Barcelona, if he's just the type to drag an average side? Because I think he does rather well when he's surrounded by
decent players too... He just produces no matter what or where... doesn't he?

No I said Alexis has the skills to be able to drag an average side. There's some skills which translate well to that and some that don't.