Mikel Arteta: 36 More Months

ptrcopp

Well-Known Member
Hating on one of our best transfer windows in years! 👀

Nothing like the Piers Morgan tweet when the pitchforks are out. But it was Piers' and company's fault that Wenger's results dropped off in his latter years, wasn't it? 😬


Rodgers over Godteta? Not looking good that one in retrospect, mate!

Visions of bottom half finishes...





The ol' Saliba stick, nothing enraged Arteta allergics more than the Ben White signing 😂

RELEGATION IS COMINGGGG



Just a sampling of posts back from August 28 😬 Just a sampling of two pages in this thread. On deadline day I said I was sure we'd ge top 6th and saw us battling with Tottenham and United for 4th and 5th and got a number of red cards and laughs. Most of these posts got huge likes.

We looked awful for the first few games so I think at the time most of those comments were justified.

Arteta has turned it around - for now at least - and I am enjoying it and glad he has managed it.
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
We looked awful for the first few games so I think at the time most of those comments were justified.
Can't really agree, coming off a half-season of top 4 form, after 3 games, one at a recently promoted side really up for it in the first game of the season, missing players from covid, the other two against the European champions and league champions, it wasn't a very rational response. Rational was what some of us did, which was take a step back, realise that 2 of those 3 fixtures we probably would've lost in normal times anyways, and that there were 35 games remaining on the schedule, that we had had a nice transfer window, and that our goals for the season were still very much ahead of us, and that forecasting less than a top 6 finish was probably overly-pessimistic based on what we'd seen from our transfer window and the bigger sample (the last 19 games or form since ESR and Ødegaard were brought into the team).

But yeah, Arteta deserves a lot of credit for keeping the players on board after that tough start, and getting the teams to grind out the results afterwards while building up a bit of confidence in a team that had it shaken by that unfortunate starting fixture list and circumstances. Many other managers would've crumbled in such an atmosphere.
 

Melquiades

Active Member
I answered sam’s question. I haven’t eliminated anything from any discussion. However to use statistical data in a way that suggests that the team is performing well when the actual league table suggested otherwise is disingenuous.

So if you are one of those who are going to peddle the calendar year table I’m just going to laugh at you uncontrollably.

@Melquiades i trust this answers your questions with respect to the posting of tables since Christmas or calendar year. Ergo they don’t count.

People be posting how Arsenal are 3rd or 4th for the calendar year but then Turn around and say Trust the process when the league table says 8th. It’s either the squad is good enough or it isn’t. You can’t be boasting about how well the team did over 12 months then ***** about how the manager needs better players.

Pick your struggle!

To me this is an extremely limited way of thinking.

When we're discussing the manager and his performance, we're looking at :

1) How is the team performing recently?
2) How is the team trending to perform in the future?

The standings at the end of the season are one arbitrary way to measure (1). And it's obviously important to do well at the end of the season for trophies and Euro positioning.

But when we're looking at whether the team is performing well and is trending to continue performing well ... the most recent 38-game segment is no different than looking at a 38-game segment of the previous season during the summer. It's the same thing.

The youngest manager in the PL probably not shockingly had a poor 2020 offseason and a poor stretch of games coming out of that. It wasn't good and obviously it mucked up the season end table - and if we'd fired him a year ago fair enough - but at this point it's rapidly becoming ancient history.

It's absolutely freaking bizarre to me to be looking at a manager who has the youngest team in the PL playing unexpectedly at a CL level for over the past year (and currently 4th in the table behind only 3 teams that clearly have far superior squads) and still be stuck on things that happened at the start of two seasons ago. If Arsenal had hired a new manager last Christmas and did the exact same things Arteta has done since, brought in the exact same players, had the exact same record ... this board would be trying to get a statue erected for that guy.

If things start going the other way and a pile of bad decisions start impacting results, I'll adjust my opinions again. But right now all of the evidence suggests that this team has a very good manager who has been doing a very good job getting very good results for over a year.
 

tap-in

Nothing Wrong With Me
Hating on one of our best transfer windows in years! 👀

Nothing like the Piers Morgan tweet when the pitchforks are out. But it was Piers' and company's fault that Wenger's results dropped off in his latter years, wasn't it? 😬


Rodgers over Godteta? Not looking good that one in retrospect, mate!

Visions of bottom half finishes...





The ol' Saliba stick, nothing enraged Arteta allergics more than the Ben White signing 😂

RELEGATION IS COMINGGGG



Just a sampling of posts back from August 28 😬 Just a sampling of two pages in this thread. On deadline day I said I was sure we'd ge top 6th and saw us battling with Tottenham and United for 4th and 5th and got a number of red cards and laughs. Most of these posts got huge likes.

All I can say in my defence is that I have always wanted Arsenal to win games. You wont find a post from me saying I hope we lose so Arteta gets sacked :)

I will also add that last season Arteta kept the same team only twice. The fact that he has learned fast has helped him improve fast. If he proves me wrong I'll be happy!
 

Barry

No Means Yes
*Madrid Dog for me, though perhaps Madrid c*nt is better, in case someone has already coined Madrid Dog for Rafa over on the Everton forum.

Thanks for the well wishes, people, bit embarrassed wasn't really wasn't saying it for that reason just having a laugh because yeah, @Barry , self-isolation is a *****, one goes a bit mad at home with just work and football to keep busy! Virus itself after having it already, vaccination, and booster is nothing really.


Is it? Perhaps in defence we have better options (though they've certainly spent money there with Reguilón, Emerson, Sánchez, Romero, etc.), but in midfield you'd have to say Hjoberg, Ndombele, Winks, and Skipp is as good or better than our options, and in attack we're perhaps more varied but they have a world-class striker and a world-class-ish support striker / winger in Son.

On paper, separating the fact that how managers deploy players obviously has a huge effect on how good they look (Ndombele, Lo Celso, etc. are players that have significant talent and we would look at quite differently under other circumstances), I don't think you can say objectively there's much in it between the squads...I could see arguments both ways tbf.
Know a lot of people going through it right now, and the isolation is so annoying - ruins plans, serious boredom etc. Feel for you.
 

Kav

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
To me this is an extremely limited way of thinking.

When we're discussing the manager and his performance, we're looking at :

1) How is the team performing recently?
2) How is the team trending to perform in the future?

The standings at the end of the season are one arbitrary way to measure (1). And it's obviously important to do well at the end of the season for trophies and Euro positioning.

But when we're looking at whether the team is performing well and is trending to continue performing well ... the most recent 38-game segment is no different than looking at a 38-game segment of the previous season during the summer. It's the same thing.

The youngest manager in the PL probably not shockingly had a poor 2020 offseason and a poor stretch of games coming out of that. It wasn't good and obviously it mucked up the season end table - and if we'd fired him a year ago fair enough - but at this point it's rapidly becoming ancient history.

It's absolutely freaking bizarre to me to be looking at a manager who has the youngest team in the PL playing unexpectedly at a CL level for over the past year (and currently 4th in the table behind only 3 teams that clearly have far superior squads) and still be stuck on things that happened at the start of two seasons ago. If Arsenal had hired a new manager last Christmas and did the exact same things Arteta has done since, brought in the exact same players, had the exact same record ... this board would be trying to get a statue erected for that guy.

If things start going the other way and a pile of bad decisions start impacting results, I'll adjust my opinions again. But right now all of the evidence suggests that this team has a very good manager who has been doing a very good job getting very good results for over a year.
The error in the way you process the information is obvious.

The league table is not one way to view how the team is performing in the league. It IS the measure of the team’s performance during the league campaign. The league campaign has always been a set amount of games. We know it before the season starts. What is disingenuous is to select specific points in time that presents a favourable outcome and say that the performance between these two points are good (your table since Christmas), yet ignore the true measure of a teams performance which is the league table. Anyone who peddles that nonsense is simply on a agenda.

If we are discussing form then absolutely we can dissect the performances into subsets and see how the team is performing during those stated periods.

However the present discussion around calendar year tables is just a example of those with a particular perspective on the capabilities of the manager highlighting the performance of the team during a period where said performance is to be considered credible in the context of points gained. Yet ignoring the obvious which is that the league starts and ends at a certain time and that the stated gains they are highlighting are never reflected across the league campaign. The only rational conclusion can be that something is not translating between your specified table and the real one.

History records where each team finishes for the season not what each team does since Christmas which makes those tables irrelevant.
 

Barry

No Means Yes
But isn’t it then okay with what some do, to reference a calendar year table? Or does it have to be shorter periods within one season to be permissible / relevant as you see it?
Surely the argument here is that anyone claiming the "calendar year table" as an achievement in itself is wrong, but showing it as an indicator of form is valid?

All the people on here frothing at the mouth about the "4th place since Christmas" stuff for example - well maybe it was a valid indicator of form because we are still in 4th place now. We need to see it out though, it's still going to be very tricky to hold, but much easier than the start of the season, now we're in front and a bunch of teams have dropped off.

I get @Kav 's point on selective data though. He's saying that you can look at the "next 5 games" or whatever for an idea of form, but looking back at a favourable subset is more like hindsight.
 
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Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Trusted ⭐
Surely the argument here is that anyone claiming the "calendar year table" as an achievement in itself is wrong, but showing it as an indicator of form is valid?
Totally agree if that had always been the case. But it seems crazy that Arsenal fans once mercilessly mocked one manager for winning the Calendat year league and now praising another for only coming 4th in the same in his 3rd season in charge.

To me, one was very good and the other was pretty good, not . . . one sh!t and the other fantastic. I find it all very confusing bro!
 
What I see is that our build-up play, especially in these past 4 matches, is FINALLY functional, for the first time I have seen under Arteta. We are much less quick to hoof the ball up the pitch under minimal pressure, and not work to calmly retain and work triangles through pressure, which is what you have to do if you want to be a functional possession side. In these last four matches I have FINALLY seen that, and not just up until the first goal, but consistently and coherently throughout a match, and that has delighted me. Then, of course, when you are doing that, and you are working the ball well through midfield and eliminating defenders with your triangles and your coherent build-up, the 10 is naturally going to enjoy himself more and get in more interesting positions with more interesting options, because you are eliminating midfielders / defenders in the process. (I am the first to admit, this has to do not just with the manager but with the superior players--you can't do this without players who don't have security and composure on the ball; with Gabriel, White / Tomi, Thomas, Ødegaard, Saka, you can work nice triangles down the right and work the ball through the opposition; with Holding, Bellerín, Elneny, no-one, and Pepe, not so much...though tbf, there is clearly a managerial aspect here, because there were a number of games where we had Holding, Bellerín, Thomas, Ødegaard, and Saka and we didn't do this, and that isn't too much different in terms of quality from what we saw today, so this has to be in important part down to instruction; personally, I think that Arteta FINALLY--and long too late, I definitely admit and think--realised that he needed to be more urgent about coaching his team to keep the ball under pressure and not concede with hoofs and over-conservatism...it seems that maybe the United and Everton games finally made him realise that he needed to really work to drill this into his players more than he was doing.)
There have been too many false starts under Arteta that while I like what I've seen in the past 3 league matches and am cautiously optimistic, I need to see how well the buildup play works against top sides (City) and midtable sides (Wolves and Spuds) before I can be convinced our buildup is now functional. Arsenal needs to play vs. a functional press to demonstrate functional buildup, because even a mediocre to poor buildup team can look good vs. a team that presses poorly and is unable to pressure effectively---the suicide runs from that depleted Leeds squad come to mind.
 

Barry

No Means Yes
Totally agree if that had always been the case. But it seems crazy that Arsenal fans once mercilessly mocked one manager for winning the Calendat year league and now praising another for only coming 4th in the same in his 3rd season in charge.

To me, one was very good and the other was pretty good, not . . . one sh!t and the other fantastic. I find it all very confusing bro!
I get that, and you're 100% right, but it's such an old point - no one's talking about Wenger here. Wenger's not at all relevant in any discussion on Arsenal's form, or whether Arteta is doing a good job now or not. Most of us loved Wenger (still do), but he's not manager any more.
 

Blood on the Tracks

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
I do see why people not particularly keen on Arteta would get frustrated with the calendar year stuff. Obviously what matters ultimately is your position in the actual league table.

At the same time, if you're looking at the calendar year table and we're sitting 4th or what not surely that fairly extensive period of time is indicative that we're at least trending in the right direction at least results wise?
A 12 month period seems too big a sample size to be a fluke I'd think 🤔

I'm much happier when I see us sat in 4th in the real league table though, I must say 😁
 

MikelHadADream

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
I do see why people not particularly keen on Arteta would get frustrated with the calendar year stuff. Obviously what matters ultimately is your position in the actual league table.

At the same time, if you're looking at the calendar year table and we're sitting 4th or what not surely that fairly extensive period of time is indicative that we're at least trending in the right direction at least results wise?
A 12 month period seems too big a sample size to be a fluke I'd think 🤔

I'm much happier when I see us sat in 4th in the real league table though, I must say 😁

I think looking at this league season is more useful. We've played almost every team (bar Wolves), so I think it's we can start making some assumptions regarding the team.

The big thing for me is our improvement against the "lesser teams", which is where we have struggled in the last 2 seasons. Good signs.

With Sp**s and United have disastrous seasons up to this point, we have to capitalise and get top 4, especially with the outlay in the summer and no Europe.
 

El Duderino

Thank You For Your Interest In Our Affairs
Trusted ⭐
I do see why people not particularly keen on Arteta would get frustrated with the calendar year stuff. Obviously what matters ultimately is your position in the actual league table.

At the same time, if you're looking at the calendar year table and we're sitting 4th or what not surely that fairly extensive period of time is indicative that we're at least trending in the right direction at least results wise?
A 12 month period seems too big a sample size to be a fluke I'd think 🤔

I'm much happier when I see us sat in 4th in the real league table though, I must say 😁

Personally the problem I have with it is that it completely ignores how bad last season was.

Kudos for the club for course correcting after the Kia brothers fiasco in Willian and Cedric, but let's not pretend like project youth mk.3 was always the plan.

*so far* he's made the jump of just getting the Ws, to getting performances, which is great.

But again, we've spent the last 8 months playing god awful boring football and most of this season we were scraping results for the better part of it.

It's still to early for any sort of gloating, as we saw last season after the Chelsea game.

Funnily enough, people bang on about ESR, but I posit that it was getting our defense set up what has carried us a lot until now.
 

AberGooner

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Hope he and his family are alright with it.

It's bad enough as a fan so can only imagine him pacing around his living room watching the game :lol:
 

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