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Mikel Arteta: Artist, Manager, Legend 💡

Blood on the Tracks

The Trusted Essayist 📖
Trusted ⭐
From a profile perspective sure, but the culture element always was and still is massively overrated to me. We have good boys now but we are still to date an Europa level team much like when Arteta arrived.

At best it is something to cling onto and I'm sure it comforts some during the bad runs knowing that our boys are somewhere out there holding hands around a campfire instead of inhaling balloons.

I wouldn't have gotten Arteta to spearhead a rebuild in the first place and 3 years later whilst admittedly looking good, I haven't seen anything yet that would change my mind about that.

Here's an interesting hypothetical.

Given how much of a junior figure Emery seemed to be in his spell here when it came to decision making and just general power at the club. Do you think we'd be in a better position now if Arteta came in straight after Arsène and was given the level of power he has now? Or do you think we'd be in a similar way?
 

BIoodBrother

Well-Known Member
Here's an interesting hypothetical.

Given how much of a junior figure Emery seemed to be in his spell here when it came to decision making and just general power at the club. Do you think we'd be in a better position now if Arteta came in straight after Arsène and was given the level of power he has now? Or do you think we'd be in a similar way?
Someone needed to be in between the new manager and the old so that we were able not to judge him on the unrealistic expectations we had put towards that mediocre team post Alexis, Santi.
That's how Arteta could survive a difficult start and fans understood he had to change the whole team.
Now we are pretty much set and see what he does with implemented tactics and the players he wants.
And we see it's good.
Emery never stood a chance.
When we lost Alexis and bought Auba and Mkhi I knew the Wenger ways were gone. He knew that if he started the well needed transition to youth and potential that there were 8th places coming even for him and instead of investing the 60-80mil (if you include Alexis' value) in youth, he tried to prolong what was an outside chance for CL places.
Then face lift after face lift (think Sokratus, Luiz) and two managers (three if you count Freddie) later and only when we had no hope for anything but wishing to see some nice moments from young players, we could start to build on that 2020 December game Vs Chelsea where we played ESR and Saka together. And on that we did build and did all the right moves in the transfermarket since. Needed to get rid of players that would hamper the chance of being a well oiled machine. I am not against binning individuals that had succes in an old system if (maybe even because of just that and the lesser will to learn) and now we see the reward. You could argue that like Dortmund we are a team where the individuals are punching above their weight slightly, if you see how young they are.
 
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Nacho

World Famous Luchador
Dusted 🔻

Player: Vieira
Here's an interesting hypothetical.

Given how much of a junior figure Emery seemed to be in his spell here when it came to decision making and just general power at the club. Do you think we'd be in a better position now if Arteta came in straight after Arsène and was given the level of power he has now? Or do you think we'd be in a similar way?

Too hard to say because Arteta came in as a head coach too with the selling point being he could improve our players much like he did Sterling and Sane.

He earned his autonomy after the FA Cup win. I think we would have moved on from Arteta very quickly because around then finishing outside of 4th wasn't as acceptable and many people would have been more accepting of the notion that going from Wenger to Arteta is too much.

Emery was admittedly that bridge between managers ebbing away expectations gradually and creating a situation for Arteta to find his footing.
 

Slug457

Active Member
we still dropped out of the CL. There weren't really any logical excuses left, that's why the planes, trains and banners excuses started

Don't want the Arteta thread to descend into purely Wenger stuff, but the toxic campaign to remove Wenger began long before we dropped out of top 4, many people including players and fans were speaking about the negative effect of the campaign before we finished 5th on 75 points 2016/17, the manager as early as 2015/16 after a protest within the stadium, so to say it was some sort of excuse cooked up after the fact is just nonsense.

Everyone acknowledges the crucial role the support is playing this season, you can't then turn around and say the mass negativity within the stadiums at that time didn't have the opposite effect :lol:
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
Unfortunately, I was under the impression that we should have been challenging. Had Wenger been judged by the current lens afforded to Arteta then I probably wouldn't have been so annoyed at the time.
As always, ignoring context and changing landscape.

Liverpool 2014-17 / City pre-Guardiola / Chelsea pre-Tuchel does NOT = current incarnations.
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
Lots of projection.

Fawning- who genuinely does the fawning here? Outers over Wenger.

Policing opinion- which set of fans are extremely resistant to criticising any facet of a manager’s tenure? Outers regarding Wenger.

The last few pages have been inners gently placating outers by trying to find common ground, but the outers just push the boat out further and further. Over emotional language, over emphasis on nostalgia, the feedback of reality starting to fly in the face of what they believe: Shades of Tories pushing the debate right constantly.

Outers have a victim complex; the whining about getting policed is getting boring.
 

Blood on the Tracks

The Trusted Essayist 📖
Trusted ⭐
Don't want the Arteta thread to descend into purely Wenger stuff, but the toxic campaign to remove Wenger began long before we dropped out of top 4, many people including players and fans were speaking about the negative effect of the campaign before we finished 5th on 75 points 2016/17, the manager as early as 2015/16 after a protest within the stadium, so to say it was some sort of excuse cooked up after the fact is just nonsense.

Everyone acknowledges the crucial role the support is playing this season, you can't then turn around and say the mass negativity within the stadiums at that time didn't have the opposite effect :lol:

I do think it's true though that managers who have achieved great things end up becoming the victims of their own high standards and achievements eventually. I think that's just natural. If your performance as manager drops from world class to very good / good. That feels like dropping off a cliff at the time.

I was Arsène in till the end but over time I've came to believe that Arsène staying those last few years was a net negative for him, the club and the supporters.

Arsène let himself become the focal point for fan unhappiness, he shielded and took the blame for the people behind the scenes who actually deserved the ire. If the issues behind the scenes had been exposed to light earlier I think they could have been addressed much more quickly. I know he did what he did with the best of intentions but I don't think it was the correct action.

Those last few years also injected a kind of toxicity into discourse in the fanbase that's still around today in many ways. A lot of the criticisms around Arteta seem to boil down to ''Well, he's getting better treatment / more support than Arsène did'' Which I don't deny but nor do I feel unhappy about it because I want the current manager to be given the best possible chance to be a success.

Part of the reason I think Arteta is so divisive is that he and his tenure is largely a way to keep fighting a proxy war over the Arsène In / Out stuff. That to me should have been put to bed years ago. Right or wrong it's history now.

I guess Arsène just casts such a vast shadow still that no manager in the short-medium term is going to be able to get out from it and be judged purely on his own merit.
 

El Duderino

Thank You For Your Interest In Our Affairs
Moderator
Lots of projection.

Fawning- who genuinely does the fawning here? Outers over Wenger.

Policing opinion- which set of fans are extremely resistant to criticising any facet of a manager’s tenure? Outers regarding Wenger.

The last few pages have been inners gently placating outers by trying to find common ground, but the outers just push the boat out further and further. Over emotional language, over emphasis on nostalgia, the feedback of reality starting to fly in the face of what they believe: Shades of Tories pushing the debate right constantly.

Outers have a victim complex; the whining about getting policed is getting boring.

Who is even an outer anymore?
 

pigge

Wishes Wrestling Fans Liked Him
y war over the Arsène In / Out stuff. That to me should have been put to bed years ago. Right or wrong it's history now.

I guess Arsène just casts such a vast shadow still that no manager in the short-medium term is going to be able to get out from it and be judged purely on his own merit.
If he wins PL you have done better than Arsène his last 10 years and better than any Arsenal manager in the last 20. Shadow or not you just need to challenge for the title or win it. It's not too much to ask on a manager to do better than the previous, it's basically the only reason ur hired.
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
Who is even an outer anymore?
I'm not sure, they're a slippery bunch. Ex-outers? you'd have to ask them. A group of posters on this forum that are generally negative, like each others posts, whine about getting policed, and refer to another group as Arteta's 'supporters' or 'sexuals' or 'inners'-- the last of which implicitly suggest that they are not 'inners'.

All in all, everyone knows who I'm talking about.
 

Slug457

Active Member
I do think it's true though that managers who have achieved great things end up becoming the victims of their own high standards and achievements eventually. I think that's just natural. If your performance as manager drops from world class to very good / good. That feels like dropping off a cliff at the time.

I was Arsène in till the end but over time I've came to believe that Arsène staying those last few years was a net negative for him, the club and the supporters.

Arsène let himself become the focal point for fan unhappiness, he shielded and took the blame for the people behind the scenes who actually deserved the ire. If the issues behind the scenes had been exposed to light earlier I think they could have been addressed much more quickly. I know he did what he did with the best of intentions but I don't think it was the correct action.

Those last few years also injected a kind of toxicity into discourse in the fanbase that's still around today in many ways. A lot of the criticisms around Arteta seem to boil down to ''Well, he's getting better treatment / more support than Arsène did'' Which I don't deny but nor do I feel unhappy about it because I want the current manager to be given the best possible chance to be a success.

I guess Arsène just casts such a vast shadow still that no manager in the short-medium term is going to be able to get out from it and be judged purely on his own merit.
Agree with some of your post, because of the miracles Weng performed early on with the only unbeaten season in English footballing history and more, that was the standard he was held too. Getting top 4 season in season out, even on a vastly inferior budget to our rivals just didn't hold the same glamour. Purse strings loosened somewhat and it was 3 FA cups in 4 but again, didn't give the same rush as a league or CL.

Think the last few years might be stretching it as we were still actively winning FA cups but I think 2016/17 would have been the perfect time in regard to his legacy/supporters. Go out on a high, record FA cup winner. We have no clue if it would have been in the best interests of the club however, there was no Emerys about, the club were begging him to sign on for another two, he didn't want to leave them in the lurch. We could have dropped out of Europe there and then if he left. Was likely given assurances he'd have two years to rebuild but he was booted out after a few months, think even he regrets staying then tbh.

As for the support Arteta is getting from the board, and the support in general, I think it's fantastic myself. I'm glad he is getting it and the fans are happier than they have been in a long time. I think that was the original point of my post, we can't say the WOB stuff is an excuse whilst simultaneously praising our current support and the positive effect it is having. And I don't even say this to bash the WOB, I have a begrudging respect for them if anything, they way they never relented or faltered, if you'd said to a WOB mid Christmas 2016 when we were top you've been proven wrong they'd have laughed in your face, a few weeks later planes were flying, compare that to most AOBs who, after a few good results this season have gone crawling back to being neutral/pro Tets again.

All to get change at the club, and my god they got it! Completely different culture/structure now, we work with the super agents, we spend big, everything Wenger was criticized for not doing we now do, with every last remnant of Weng removed from the club at that, the only thing left a pathetic little pop of picture of Wenger on a wall at the training ground he built. And if it brings us success on the field I'll be the first to cheer it on! That's really all I care about.
 

El Duderino

Thank You For Your Interest In Our Affairs
Moderator
I'm not sure, they're a slippery bunch. Ex-outers? you'd have to ask them. A group of posters on this forum that are generally negative, like each others posts, whine about getting policed, and refer to another group as Arteta's 'supporters' or 'sexuals' or 'inners'-- the last of which implicitly suggest that they are not 'inners'.

All in all, everyone knows who I'm talking about.

So, 3 posters?

Not like guys going around screaming contesexuals, liking each others posts and complaining about other posters whining about them policing the forum don't exist as well, right?

You take the "sexual" and negative stuff out and that's literally 90% of the forum.
 

Blood on the Tracks

The Trusted Essayist 📖
Trusted ⭐
Agree with some of your post, because of the miracles Weng performed early on with the only unbeaten season in English footballing history and more, that was the standard he was held too. Getting top 4 season in season out, even on a vastly inferior budget to our rivals just didn't hold the same glamour. Purse strings loosened somewhat and it was 3 FA cups in 4 but again, didn't give the same rush as a league or CL.

Think the last few years might be stretching it as we were still actively winning FA cups but I think 2016/17 would have been the perfect time in regard to his legacy/supporters. Go out on a high, record FA cup winner. We have no clue if it would have been in the best interests of the club however, there was no Emerys about, the club were begging him to sign on for another two, he didn't want to leave them in the lurch. We could have dropped out of Europe there and then if he left. Was likely given assurances he'd have two years to rebuild but he was booted out after a few months, think even he regrets staying then tbh.

As for the support Arteta is getting from the board, and the support in general, I think it's fantastic myself. I'm glad he is getting it and the fans are happier than they have been in a long time. I think that was the original point of my post, we can't say the WOB stuff is an excuse whilst simultaneously praising our current support and the positive effect it is having. And I don't even say this to bash the WOB, I have a begrudging respect for them if anything, they way they never relented or faltered, if you'd said to a WOB mid Christmas 2016 when we were top you've been proven wrong they'd have laughed in your face, a few weeks later planes were flying, compare that to most AOBs who, after a few good results this season have gone crawling back to being neutral/pro Tets again.

All to get change at the club, and my god they got it! Completely different culture/structure now, we work with the super agents, we spend big, everything Wenger was criticized for not doing we now do, with every last remnant of Weng removed from the club at that, the only thing left a pathetic little pop of picture of Wenger on a wall at the training ground he built. And if it brings us success on the field I'll be the first to cheer it on! That's really all I care about.

I agree with the majority of what you've said here. I won't get into a long reply as I'll end up going wildly off topic and derailing this thread as I'm prone to do, I fear.

Just wanted to say, we may not agree on everything but I find you one of the most enjoyable posters to read on this forum. Consistently well thought out and thought provoking posts 👍
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
Very obtuse response.
So, 3 posters?
Nope
Not like guys going around screaming contesexuals, liking each others posts and complaining about other posters whining about them policing the forum don't exist as well, right?
'Contesexuals' is tongue-in-cheek which is a quality I seem to recall you complaining about people failing to recognise.

I believe I acknowledged that there was an inner contingent? The factions have similarities (liking each other posts, generally tribal behaviour) but that misses the point I was making. I said that the outers relentlessly project behaviours such as 'fawning, and 'policing' on to inners when they themselves are greater proponents of such behaviour. I'm not saying that inners don't engage in this stuff.

What's more is that you make no attempt to point out their hypocrisy when accusations of such behaviour are made of inners. Why?
You take the "sexual" and negative stuff out and that's literally 90% of the forum.
You're contradicting yourself, you said three posters but now say 90% of the forum.
 

GoonerJeeves

Up The Terriers
Trusted ⭐
On the whole, being "the Arsenal manager in" is in general a more sensible position than "get him (maybe her at some point) out!!"
 

El Duderino

Thank You For Your Interest In Our Affairs
Moderator
You're contradicting yourself, you said three posters but now say 90% of the forum.

Because only 3 or so posters are actually negative all the time and are actually Arteta out? Guys you consistently want to engange with for some reason, instead of ignoring them all together.

I don't see people complaining half as much about others having an opinion other than guys that complain the forum is negative all the time.

People are allowed to be negative or overtly positive.

'Contesexuals' is tongue-in-cheek which is a quality I seem to recall you complaining about people failing to recognise.

And I still hold to that belief, specially since there's a lot of tongue in cheek coments from guys you call outers keep getting called out...
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
If we magically had Pep in charge of Arsenal now instead of Arteta, do people think Pep would be better placed to succeed? If so, why? What do people think Pep is better than Arteta at, specifically?
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
Because only 3 or so posters are actually negative all the time and are actually Arteta out? Guys you consistently want to engange with for some reason, instead of ignoring them all together.
I don't see people complaining half as much about others having an opinion other than guys that complain the forum is negative all the time.
People are allowed to be negative or overtly positive.
And I still hold to that belief, specially since there's a lot of tongue in cheek coments from guys you call outers keep getting called out...
Almost total failure to engage with the content of my post.
I didn't say 'negative all the time'. I said 'generally' the gist of which is 'mostly'.
I engage with the three you refer to less than anybody else.
My saying the forum is negative is an opinion on others views, it is not a complaint about ones own view being policed à la trax's 'cancel culture' spiel or oxeki: 'attacked and branded as haters' as if they are hunted down by witches.
Where did I say people weren't allowed to be overtly negative or positive?
Cool, you hold to that belief but you've just called us out for 'screaming contesexual'
 

Arsenal Quotes

This is a big moment of happiness...we waited a long time for this and the happiness is linked sometimes with the suffering, and the time that you have to wait....this was more important than all the other (trophies) we have twice won the double, but were not under pressure then like we were today.

Arsène Wenger, on winning the 2014 FA Cup
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