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Mikel Arteta: Artist, Manager, Legend 💡

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Trusted ⭐

Player: Saliba
Why are you excluding wages again? It’s as much a part of spending as the up-front fee, and we’re not close to the ‘second highest’ if you take account of it.

If it’s a mistake, fair enough. But if you’re doing this deliberately it’s completely disingenuous.
Wages are a separate metric. They both correlate with finishing position. It’s a lot harder to quote wages though because there are hidden bonuses and incentives. If you were here, you might remember a big discussion on Willian’s salary. Was it £100m a week, basic salary or £200m with the signing on bonus distributed over the wages period? Massive difference. The only sure way of knowing wages is to wait for the accounts to be published much later, whilst transfer fees are published regularly on Transfermarkt.
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
Tbf you and @RunTheTrap are making the comment as if Martinelli wasn't completely missing from the PL (in terms of appearances) for relatively large parts of the 20/21 season even when he was fit.

It's not as if people questioned it for no reason, and please don't say that people overreacted because it's easy to say that in hindsight.

That said, I'm starting to understand that Arteta doesn't necessarily do it on purpose cos he dislikes a player, but it seems to be some kind of tunnel vision if a player isn't fully in the fold. Also probably an inexperience thing which is understandable I guess.

Another example is Nketiah last season, sure he was on the last year of his contract but he got very little game time until Arteta was forced to use him. But clearly Arteta didn't hate the player because we gave him a contract in the end.
To me, when gabi came back it was obvious that he’d improved immensely as a player. He’d become more subtle, held his position much better and had was playing more types of pas— his passing repertoire has continued to expand.

So I’m of the opinion that Mikel was very focused on improving him behind the scenes while he wasn’t playing. I thought it was the first clear evidence of what Sterling and sane had mentioned— that Arteta is good at improving wingers
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Trusted ⭐

Player: Saliba
He's been called out on it for years and just ignores it, so it has to be deliberate.

Really weird that the person championing "squad cost" as the be-all and end-all of team success - which is largely true, in fairness - just flat out ignores literally half (if not more) of that aspect of the concept.

My guess is it's because it ever so slightly weakens his narrative regarding Wenger never spending any money at all, acting like he was basically operating on the same budget as Wigan when the truth was Arsenal was offering top 4 wages but without the initial spending power in terms of bringing in players. Which still made the consistent top 4 finishes impressive, just to be clear, just not to the unrealistic wizard levels Trax likes to compare other managers to.

It's genuinely one of the clearest examples of narratives on the forum.
Called me out? Lol.

Hardly remember a discussion on wages here until recently under Arteta. Wages and transfer costs are two separate metrics that both correlate with finishing position. If you want to find the data and lump them both together go ahead. Until then stop making stuff up. What teams spend on players is relevant to the quality of the squad. You want to talk about something else, go ahead, without trying to be a condescending prat.
 

Xln

Get Xhaka 🔛
Called me out? Lol.

Hardly remember a discussion on wages here until recently under Arteta. Wages and transfer costs are two separate metrics that both correlate with finishing position. If you want to find the data and lump them both together go ahead. Until then stop making stuff up. What teams spend on players is relevant to the quality of the squad. You want to talk about something else, go ahead, without trying to be a condescending prat.
Thought you would skim through posts and ignore that are wrong, if you were confident enough in your stance.
Lost your confidence?
 

MikelHadADream

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Think it’s fair to say we are now seeing “Artetaball” consistently, and let’s be honest it’s absolutely class to watch. I like it because style wise its a bit of a hybrid of City and Liverpool. You have the similar build up patterns to City, but when we get to the final third we have 3 rapid dynamic forwards.
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
Wages are a separate metric. They both correlate with finishing position. It’s a lot harder to quote wages though because there are hidden bonuses and incentives. If you were here, you might remember a big discussion on Willian’s salary. Was it £100m a week, basic salary or £200m with the signing on bonus distributed over the wages period? Massive difference. The only sure way of knowing wages is to wait for the accounts to be published much later, whilst transfer fees are published regularly on Transfermarkt.
Not sure how you’re making the judgement that transfer fees are more reliably published than wages.

Tbh mate, if you don’t think the information on an element of resource management as important as wages is good enough, then you should admit your whole economic analysis isn’t good enough and forget about it.

You can’t have a sensible discussion while ignoring them in my view.
 

Nacho

World Famous Luchador
Dusted 🔻

Player: Vieira
Tbf you and @RunTheTrap are making the comment as if Martinelli wasn't completely missing from the PL (in terms of appearances) for relatively large parts of the 20/21 season even when he was fit.

It's not as if people questioned it for no reason, and please don't say that people overreacted because it's easy to say that in hindsight.

That said, I'm starting to understand that Arteta doesn't necessarily do it on purpose cos he dislikes a player, but it seems to be some kind of tunnel vision if a player isn't fully in the fold. Also probably an inexperience thing which is understandable I guess.

Another example is Nketiah last season, sure he was on the last year of his contract but he got very little game time until Arteta was forced to use him. But clearly Arteta didn't hate the player because we gave him a contract in the end.

He's explained his reluctance to throw in youngsters many times and it's actually one of the few things I've agreed with Arteta on since day one. Arsenal fans were not always the kindest during that period.

Martinelli went missing for ages when he had recovered it was fair enough question the reluctance for team selections (as much as some don't like that). People on here were even talking about loaning him out, I don't see the sense of revisionism.
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
He's explained his reluctance to throw in youngsters many times and it's actually one of the few things I've agreed with Arteta on since day one. Arsenal fans were not always the kindest during that period.

Martinelli went missing for ages when he had recovered it was fair enough question the reluctance for team selections (as much as some don't like that). People on here were even talking about loaning him out, I don't see the sense of revisionism.
I find Arteta a bit too conservative but players should be protected. I’d put our dealings with saliba down to conservatism tbh and it could continue to cost us dearly there. Have a bit more faith in him last year and maybe we’ve got cl and he’s already signed the contract.
But I do think it’s more likely conservatism rather than some personal issue that led to that.
 

blrgooner

Established Member
Wages are a separate metric. They both correlate with finishing position. It’s a lot harder to quote wages though because there are hidden bonuses and incentives. If you were here, you might remember a big discussion on Willian’s salary. Was it £100m a week, basic salary or £200m with the signing on bonus distributed over the wages period? Massive difference. The only sure way of knowing wages is to wait for the accounts to be published much later, whilst transfer fees are published regularly on Transfermarkt.
I would say Transfermarkt is equally dodgy. Nobody knows the exact payment structure and how much a club needs to pay in a particular year. Even there, you don`t get an exact picture of what the clubs actual transfer expenditure is. Also transfer fees include add-ons and bonuses as well which are very unclear when it comes to amounts mentioned in Transfermarkt
 

dka1

Formerly known as dka91
To me, when gabi came back it was obvious that he’d improved immensely as a player. He’d become more subtle, held his position much better and had was playing more types of pas— his passing repertoire has continued to expand.

So I’m of the opinion that Mikel was very focused on improving him behind the scenes while he wasn’t playing. I thought it was the first clear evidence of what Sterling and sane had mentioned— that Arteta is good at improving wingers

That's completely fair enough and I agree. I still don't think it was weird or an overreaction to question Martinelli being "missing" at the time because honestly it was a bit confusing to me especially when Willian was stinking it up.

But yeah both you and Macho make good points regarding this and Mikel's conservatism definitely plays a part but I think Arteta is starting to see that sometimes ability just trumps all; ESR, Saka, Gabi, Saliba have proven this imo.
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Trusted ⭐

Player: Saliba
Do you have a source for your claim we can look at?
Sure. I’m a fact based poster.

AE937-FCC-647-A-478-A-81-E8-4-E4-B202-C90-B3.jpg
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Trusted ⭐

Player: Saliba
Not sure how you’re making the judgement that transfer fees are more reliably published than wages.

Tbh mate, if you don’t think the information on an element of resource management as important as wages is good enough, then you should admit your whole economic analysis isn’t good enough and forget about it.

You can’t have a sensible discussion while ignoring them in my view.
You can never be sure about the reliability of any data on the internet. I’m not stopping you guys discussing the wages metric. Not sure what the problem is here. Kroenke’s are spending at last, we should all be celebrating.
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
I’m not stopping you guys discussing the wages metric.
If you want to have a discussion about finances I really think that’s up to you tbh
Not sure what the problem is here. Kroenke’s are spending at last, we should all be celebrating.
I’m happy 😃
You must be pleased too, being such an early supporter of Arteta’s😀
 

drippin

I reject your reality, I substitute my own !!
I find Arteta a bit too conservative but players should be protected. I’d put our dealings with saliba down to conservatism tbh and it could continue to cost us dearly there. Have a bit more faith in him last year and maybe we’ve got cl and he’s already signed the contract.
But I do think it’s more likely conservatism rather than some personal issue that led to that.
Nah, I think it was always about wanting Saliba to play as much as possible, his first full season, while we still had Holding on payroll to cover that position. Arsenal isn't a club that has 80k pounds per week player not play any minutes in a season when there is no problem with the player. That's ~4 million pounds per season.

Holding played 840 minutes in EPL last season, while Saliba wasn't the same player as he is now after a full season at Marseille.

Plus it's always possible that Saliba himself wanted a loan rather than risk being benched at a top team. He is a wise and humble young man, and these quotes reflect how he thinks about being a 20 year old CB.

"“I spoke with the coach and the president [before deciding on the loan]. I was convinced. For a young person like me, it’s good to come here to improve.

I chose Marseille because it is the right choice. I pushed to come here. We will see what will happen next season.

I’m young, I’m 20, I haven’t proven anything. I want to progress here.”"

 

drippin

I reject your reality, I substitute my own !!
I would say Transfermarkt is equally dodgy. Nobody knows the exact payment structure and how much a club needs to pay in a particular year. Even there, you don`t get an exact picture of what the clubs actual transfer expenditure is. Also transfer fees include add-ons and bonuses as well which are very unclear when it comes to amounts mentioned in Transfermarkt
Yep. For example Mari transfer fee is two times in Transfermarkt, when that one article explained the transfer fee in detail.

Another thing are agent fees. For example Haaland. Or even I think Werner agent fees were like 10 million and that is not considered at all in Transfermarkt.
 

Blood on the Tracks

The Trusted Essayist 📖
Trusted ⭐
I think we should stop bickering and just soak it in this week. We've just done Sp**s quite convincingly, we're top of the table. There's a decent chance that this will be the high point of our season. Enjoy it while it lasts.

If you weren't Arteta out at 1-2 points previously you were probably clouded by emotion. If you're Arteta out now you're probably clouded by emotion.

There's nothing wrong with changing your opinions as circumstances change. In fact it's the intelligent thing to do.
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
Nah, I think it was always about wanting Saliba to play as much as possible, his first full season, while we still had Holding on payroll to cover that position. Arsenal isn't a club that has 80k pounds per week player not play any minutes in a season when there is no problem with the player. That's ~4 million pounds per season.

Holding played 840 minutes in EPL last season, while Saliba wasn't the same player as he is now after a full season at Marseille.

Plus it's always possible that Saliba himself wanted a loan rather than risk being benched at a top team. He is a wise and humble young man, and these quotes reflect how he thinks about being a 20 year old CB.

"“I spoke with the coach and the president [before deciding on the loan]. I was convinced. For a young person like me, it’s good to come here to improve.

I chose Marseille because it is the right choice. I pushed to come here. We will see what will happen next season.

I’m young, I’m 20, I haven’t proven anything. I want to progress here.”"

We’re speculating aren’t we?
You might be right but the level he’s able to produce is so incredible currently that I find it difficult to imagine that he wouldn’t have been very good for us last year.

I think it makes sense to have a player of that profile as our third rotation option at cb with the chance of displacing our first choices. With the benefit of hindsight we can also see how injury prone Tomiyasu was and that would have given him opportunities at rb or cb if we decided to shift white out their like this season.

I’ve always said I think the loan to Marseilles last season is what was best for him and his development. But as far as what’s best for Arsenal, I think he makes the difference to our cl campaign and we build a better relationship with the player and are better placed to negotiate a contract now if he stayed.
 

drippin

I reject your reality, I substitute my own !!
Sure. I’m a fact based poster.

AE937-FCC-647-A-478-A-81-E8-4-E4-B202-C90-B3.jpg
That's not the sum Arteta has spent though, like I counted three times earlier. It was like 250 million pounds. But of course you want to count flops like Pepe to make it look like Arteta has spent the 2nd most.

Arteta only got Mari and Cedric on loan in 19/20 winter. So it's more telling about Arteta to look at the balance from 20/21 until now, or actually it would be to from 19/20 winter, but there's not that option on Transfermarkt.
There we have Chelsea and United spending almost 100 million euros more. Newcastle similar amount. Tottenham has to pay 35 million for Kulusevski next summer so basically they have spent 15 million euros more in that time frame.

So that's Chelsea, United, Tottenham getting more investment from the owners than Arteta's spend. Then you have City and Liverpool ahead in team development. That's some competition and success surely isn't quaranteed.

This transfer fee stuff also always ignores the fact how UCL teams get players cheaper, in fees and wages, because they player wants to usually go there over other teams.

This is just to show how your facts can mislead people.


Now we're plucking players from City because the Kroenke's are the second highest investors
Also do you see how silly this sentence looks? Can you explain your thought process here?

We aren't plucking players from City because Kroenke spends much money. Those players didn't cost a lot, they were 87 million euros for two EPL proven players.

We are doing it because Arteta has that pull for City players, Arteta has got Arsenal attractive again and Arteta & Edu have cleared the bloated wage bill.
 

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