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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
@Makingtrax still didn’t answer my questions
He basically started a fire and left the building
It just doesn’t make sense to me that people want him to stay on the job, are watching incredible football and yet don’t have a single good thing to say about his actual skills.

Imagine you knew nothing, had no context. Someone shows you tape of the football we’ve produced this season, the Brentford game say, and then they ask you whether the manager of this team is good at his job. Are you going to say no? It’s just absurd to me

I understand people like nacho who I think acknowledge he has skill while also having caveats with his tenure, flaws overall, and generally not like the bloke. But I can’t see how you watch this and find nothing, not a single good thing to say about the bloke’s actual skills
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
This sums up what's wrong with your reading ability. The whole post was sarcastic because blrgoon kept banging on how no credit was given to Arteta when there's virtually no one in this thread doing that, but how any qualifier on top of him getting credit - ie he did well spending ****loads of money - is considered an affront.

Look at @samspade with his endless hypotheticals ffs. Only reason this thread still keeps racking up pages is because some of you aren't happy until you hear the shahada.
Nah bro, trax started this. It’s because you can’t find anything good to say about him, and I’m trying to tally that with I see on the pitch. The hypotheticals are an attempt to pin you down
 

Melquiades

Active Member
Why would you exclude our worst run that took literally half a season to try find out what our "normal" non-anomaly level is? 8 wins out of 9 if you include the EL game is definitely the best run we've seen under Arteta, it's not really debatable. It's genuinely a good run for any team, you need to drop your complexes I'm not trying to **** on your man here.

Also genuine question did you compile that list yourself or is there some website for it? Liverpool e.g. lost just twice last season, they had a **** year before that but I struggle to see where they've lost 14 more matches.

My bad on Liverpool - when I first put this together a couple weeks ago it looks like I flipped the draws and losses. So they are a bit ahead of us.

Our worst run was a long ****ing time ago. The point is that we've been playing really good football for a long ****ing time since and have a terrific record over nearly 2 years in a large sample size. And we're still improving.
 
D

Deleted member 102404

Guest
My bad on Liverpool - when I first put this together a couple weeks ago it looks like I flipped the draws and losses. So they are a bit ahead of us.

Our worst run was a long ****ing time ago. The point is that we've been playing really good football for a long ****ing time since and have a terrific record over nearly 2 years in a large sample size. And we're still improving.
Well we've not been playing terrific football over a long period, I would say we've had spells since Dec2020 where we were playing terrific football, interspersed with some really poor performances.
What we have done is pick up a decent amount of points over a long period.
Putting it together over a single season is what the team now need to prove they can do.
Great start this year.
 

Melquiades

Active Member
Well we've not been playing terrific football over a long period, I would say we've had spells since Dec2020 where we were playing terrific football, interspersed with some really poor performances.
What we have done is pick up a decent amount of points over a long period.
Putting it together over a single season is what the team now need to prove they can do.
Great start this year.

Fair enough. Really only City has been playing terrific football for a long period in the PL.

But we have been getting CL-level results for a large sample size.
 

blrgooner

Established Member
This sums up what's wrong with your reading ability. The whole post was sarcastic because blrgoon kept banging on how no credit was given to Arteta when there's virtually no one in this thread doing that, but how any qualifier on top of him getting credit - ie he did well spending ****loads of money - is considered an affront.

Look at @samspade with his endless hypotheticals ffs. Only reason this thread still keeps racking up pages is because some of you aren't happy until you hear the shahada.
Hahaha again, it shows your reading ability here. The point is not that a qualifier cannot be added to credits. The point is that when the qualifier is an exaggeration lik "unprecedented backing", it's clearly intended to absolve credit. You can go on and on about how virtually no one is truly to tke away credit from Arteta when most posts here try to do the same thing. In fact there was a clear attempt at removing any intentionality by saying stuff like"given 3 years and lots of money, anybody could have done what Arteta did".
 

db10_therza

🎵 Edu getting rickrolled 🎵
Trusted ⭐

Country: Bangladesh

Player:Martinelli
Hahaha again, it shows your reading ability here. The point is not that a qualifier cannot be added to credits. The point is that when the qualifier is an exaggeration lik "unprecedented backing", it's clearly intended to absolve credit. You can go on and on about how virtually no one is truly to tke away credit from Arteta when most posts here try to do the same thing. In fact there was a clear attempt at removing any intentionality by saying stuff like"given 3 years and lots of money, anybody could have done what Arteta did".

This whole narrative around spending is boring anyway, and pointless. The question about whether he’s good because he spent money on new players or not will inevitably give both inners and outers a side to cling to. And I don’t give a toss that he’s spent money, I care that it’s been spent well. Here’s a better question: “is the team performing to a higher level than expected given the cost in assembling it?” - i would say so far this season, definitely yes. You’re welcome to think otherwise but I’d say you were weird for thinking it…
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
This whole narrative around spending is boring anyway, and pointless. The question about whether he’s good because he spent money on new players or not will inevitably give both inners and outers a side to cling to. And I don’t give a toss that he’s spent money, I care that it’s been spent well. Here’s a better question: “is the team performing to a higher level than expected given the cost in assembling it?” - i would say so far this season, definitely yes. You’re welcome to think otherwise but I’d say you were weird for thinking it…
The thing to consider also, is that in his first window he got Mari & Cedric for like 10 million pounds, because of FFP, and that was January window.

Next he got I think Partey and Gabriel. From these Partey has played like 50% of possible EPL minutes. So basically half of Partey's transfer fee got use, Arteta's most important buy for a long time.

Only last summer he got more spending to use, nothing on January, and again good spending this summer.

Also last summer much of that money was spent for potential. Think about White costing more than Varane especially when you don't count wages like Trax doesn't, and they got him also because of UCL.

So my point is, that it's expected that the results will pick up this season or later (like was realized by the management, Edu etc., because the aim/expectation always was top 4 this season, because of the squad they had to fix.) Last season was better than most expected.

When you spend much of the money for potential, you can't expect instant results. It takes longer to get young potential players to work in EPL, and like expected, now we are seeing the results, and we can only expect better things in the future.

People always bring up that spend without considering all the factors that should be considered. Then it gets brought up again after I make these points, and the same arguments have to be repeated over and over again.
 

Melquiades

Active Member
This whole narrative around spending is boring anyway, and pointless. The question about whether he’s good because he spent money on new players or not will inevitably give both inners and outers a side to cling to. And I don’t give a toss that he’s spent money, I care that it’s been spent well. Here’s a better question: “is the team performing to a higher level than expected given the cost in assembling it?” - i would say so far this season, definitely yes. You’re welcome to think otherwise but I’d say you were weird for thinking it…

The takes on spending and 'chequebook managers' are so freaking terrible.

1) Every manager of a big club is a 'chequebook manager'. There are 8-10 teams in the PL that are huge spenders. We're currently outperforming all of them.

2) It isn't like we've bought the Galacticos here. The lack of UCL means we're actually at a disadvantage relative to some and we've really only bought one guy (Partey) who would have been considered a top established player at a top European team. It's mostly been smart buys on under-the-radar players at smaller clubs or squad guys at bigger clubs.

3) You can't measure the quality of a team by the spend in their last few years. We've spent more than Liverpool in the last couple years but compare our squad in 2019 to their squad in 2019 and the difference is night and day. They had to spend very little to maintain an elite squad, whereas we were in danger of falling into mid-table with our worst squad in decades and had to spend significantly to rebuild the team to an acceptable level.
 
D

Deleted member 102404

Guest
The takes on spending and 'chequebook managers' are so freaking terrible.

1) Every manager of a big club is a 'chequebook manager'. There are 8-10 teams in the PL that are huge spenders. We're currently outperforming all of them.

2) It isn't like we've bought the Galacticos here. The lack of UCL means we're actually at a disadvantage relative to some and we've really only bought one guy (Partey) who would have been considered a top established player at a top European team.

3) You can't measure the quality of a team by the spend in their last few years. We've spent more than Liverpool in the last couple years but compare our squad in 2019 to their squad in 2019 and the difference is night and day. They had to spend very little to maintain an elite squad, whereas we were in danger of falling into mid-table with our worst squad in decades and had to spend significantly to rebuild the team to an acceptable level.

The 'chequebook manager' slight is really not something that holds any water. It just comes across as being somewhat resentful of any success he gets. Don't get it really.
 

Farzad Stoned

Self-appointed Deprogrammer for the Cult of Mik 🟥

Country: USA

Player:Havertz
As I analyze the fixture list due to the postponement of the City match, and favorable fixtures to begin with first half of season; this match against LFC is one of the biggest matches in October for this club in a generation. The reason being that with City match being out of it, and Europa league fixtures coming thick and fast we could go on a 4 month unbeaten or near unbeaten run in league if we can build on NLD and get another 3 points and the confidence that comes with it. Go look at fixtures, assuming reasonable health and some support in January there is no reason we should not only hold on to a slim lead over City but increase it first half of year assuming full 3 points against Lfc.

After the visit to Stamford Bridge a few months away then tough fixtures come thick and fast. But we best LFc and just play to form against the opposition we could be in first 4 months from now because there is barely a match we should lose till then. But if LFC beat us we are right back in the pack and the momentum we built will be gone.

Momentum is a funny thing in life, you get a few breaks go your way and you start believing, your belief causes your opponents to believe and to make mistakes and give you gifts you wouldn’t deserve. Arsenal put a run like that together are in first 3 to 4 months like that there will be reverberations and a momentum of its own. There is a blueprint for longshot’s chance, not saying it will happen. But we got the most favorable list of fixtures possible coming up with first place sealed prior to the Scousers at home. No more free hits Mik, anyone says free hit for this match punch them in the nose. It is a giant of an October match for the club
 

Melquiades

Active Member
The 'chequebook manager' slight is really not something that holds any water. It just comes across as being somewhat resentful of any success he gets. Don't get it really.

It just comes across as lacking understanding.

Like, you look at City/United/Chelsea and they're regularly splashing huge fees for established 'name' star players at big clubs. Sp**s sort of tries, too.

We haven't remotely done that. We're signing guys from Bologna and Brighton and Huddersfield. And bench players at City.

We've had to add a lot of players because the squad was so dire 2-3 years ago which has added up to a big overall spend in the last 3 years, but it's overall not a high-priced squad. At all.

Comparing our wage bill to that at the other big 5 clubs (hint : it's the lowest) is probably a better way to determine who is a 'chequebook manager' and what teams are actually trying to buy success.
 

Farzad Stoned

Self-appointed Deprogrammer for the Cult of Mik 🟥

Country: USA

Player:Havertz
After LFC we got only road match at Chelsea then rest of the fixtures are highly winnable till April 8th trip to Anfield, then the fixtures get serious. But after this match if we play to form clear sailing till start of April. This match and it’s 3 points is huge, biggest October Match I can remember in decades really LFc at home the fixtures are a cake walk after that till start of April when they turn nasty
 

db10_therza

🎵 Edu getting rickrolled 🎵
Trusted ⭐

Country: Bangladesh

Player:Martinelli
It just comes across as lacking understanding.

Like, you look at City/United/Chelsea and they're regularly splashing huge fees for established 'name' star players at big clubs. Sp**s sort of tries, too.

We haven't remotely done that. We're signing guys from Bologna and Brighton and Huddersfield. And bench players at City.

We've had to add a lot of players because the squad was so dire 2-3 years ago which has added up to a big overall spend in the last 3 years, but it's overall not a high-priced squad. At all.

Comparing our wage bill to that at the other big 5 clubs (hint : it's the lowest) is probably a better way to determine who is a 'chequebook manager' and what teams are actually trying to buy success.

Spot on about only looking at last few years spending. Its why I specifically said how much the squad cost to assemble.

The other point the lazy spending narrative misses is that our spending is high relative to the current ability of the bought players because we're largely buying youth prospects. Which usually makes the managers life a bit harder as young kids tend to need more handholding but from an investment point of view it makes much much more sense. Which actually brings me onto another point that is missed -> I'd be very surprised if we aren't sitting on a healthy 'paper' profit on our spending.

So why moan about the spending? Honestly. The jury is out on lokonga but barring that all our young buys have gone up in value imo (yes even Ben White).
 

db10_therza

🎵 Edu getting rickrolled 🎵
Trusted ⭐

Country: Bangladesh

Player:Martinelli
After LFC we got only road match at Chelsea then rest of the fixtures are highly winnable till April 8th trip to Anfield, then the fixtures get serious. But after this match if we play to form clear sailing till start of April. This match and it’s 3 points is huge, biggest October Match I can remember in decades really LFc at home the fixtures are a cake walk after that till start of April when they turn nasty
Nailed it bro. LFC is a huge game especially because of how the fixtures have ended up with the city game cancelled. Absolutely huge. Could be a red sea parting moment. For both teams... Just don't know if we're gonna end up like moses or the egyptians :eyess:

It's the first game for this team up against quality opponents who both like to and have the ability to dominate possession. Sp**s and Utd were very different propositions.
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
Spot on about only looking at last few years spending. Its why I specifically said how much the squad cost to assemble.

The other point the lazy spending narrative misses is that our spending is high relative to the current ability of the bought players because we're largely buying youth prospects. Which usually makes the managers life a bit harder as young kids tend to need more handholding but from an investment point of view it makes much much more sense. Which actually brings me onto another point that is missed -> I'd be very surprised if we aren't sitting on a healthy 'paper' profit on our spending.

So why moan about the spending? Honestly. The jury is out on lokonga but barring that all our young buys have gone up in value imo (yes even Ben White).
You spend 35-40 euros million on Fabio Vieira, who has basically played half a season in Portugal. Then these guys come saying: "Hey you spent so much money, why doesn't it show instantly in the results!?! You're ****."

That's in short the stuff going on in here. An objective person would understand that you can't only look at the amount of money, and that this kind of buy should be expected to give what he was paid for, in 1-2 years.

Same with the 2021 summer buys who all had much potential in their price, so you expect them to perform this year at earliest, but Arteta got them performing well even last year.
 

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