Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[samspade]

I hear there’s a job going at the Spanish Inquisition.

First quote shows how simple it could’ve been

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

Not really fair comparing an era where a cheque book manager can buy players from teams like Man City, is allowed to give endless players away for nothing and replace his own mistakes very quickly, with an era of austerity. Since 19/20 Arsenal have invested a lot more in player transfers than they did in Wenger’s entire 22 years. Even allowing for inflation, which has been very low for years, that is a ridiculous increase in spending on transfers.

To say the recruitment is better now is a bit laughable. It ought to be.

I'm fine with the chequebook manager stuff. For Arsenal to compete at the top level we need to spend a lot of money. We're not spending a ridiculous amount compared to our rivals. We were just starved of investment for so long getting to a decent level of investment in our squad seems 'ridiculous' as you put it.

We're playing catch up with the teams that we want to see as our peers, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea etc and they aren't standing still either. Big money needs to be thrown at it.

As long as Arteta / Edu invest the money wisely, which I think they generally have done over the past 12-18 months, I'm happy.

 

[Makingtrax]

It's what you do though. You debate, but when losing you stop the answering totally to the subject.

When losing? Lol. You see this as some sort of competition. I showed you two tables of injury data to show how well Arsenal have controlled injuries, either by luck or design. And you tried to rubbish both tables. You’re entitled to do that. I don’t see why I have to justify them. And you’re entitled to your opinion too.

My opinion is that Arsenal injuries have been low. Yes Partey has had his share but overall, compared to years like 15/16 where there were times when it was difficult to field a side, things have drastically changed.

 

[Makingtrax]

I'm fine with the chequebook manager stuff. For Arsenal to compete at the top level we need to spend a lot of money. We're not spending a ridiculous amount compared to our rivals. We were just starved of investment for so long getting to a decent level of investment in our squad seems 'ridiculous' as you put it.

We're playing catch up with the teams that we want to see as our peers, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea etc and they aren't standing still either. Big money needs to be thrown at it.

As long as Arteta / Edu invest the money wisely, which I think they generally have done over the past 12-18 months, I'm happy.

Totally agree with this, and it’s something I’ve been saying for some time. Nice to agree bro.

 

[dka1]

I'm fine with the chequebook manager stuff. For Arsenal to compete at the top level we need to spend a lot of money. We're not spending a ridiculous amount compared to our rivals. We were just starved of investment for so long getting to a decent level of investment in our squad seems 'ridiculous' as you put it.

We're playing catch up with the teams that we want to see as our peers, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea etc and they aren't standing still either. Big money needs to be thrown at it.

As long as Arteta / Edu invest the money wisely, which I think they generally have done over the past 12-18 months, I'm happy.

Spot on. And look Edteta are spending the money wisely, which is good, a positive mark for them cos spending alone doesn't guarantee success.

 

[drippin]

When losing? Lol. You see this as some sort of competition. I showed you two tables of injury data to show how well Arsenal have controlled injuries, either by luck or design. And you tried to rubbish both tables. You’re entitled to do that. I don’t see why I have to justify them. And you’re entitled to your opinion too.

My opinion is that Arsenal injuries have been low. Yes Partey has had his share but overall, compared to years like 15/16 where there were times when it was difficult to field a side, things have drastically changed.

Debates are 1vs1 "competitions", but the aim is the truth which is what matters.

Yes, you stopped answering in this case also no matter how much I asked you. You didn't even answer if you understand the problems in those charts, and likely don't, because you keep repeating how lucky Arteta has been regarding injuries.

It looks very silly. I for example have said that we haven't had the most injuries, but there have been a lot of injury worries to important players compared to our squad size. This is what you do when you try to be objective, admit the facts.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

I mean the easy answer to that is that it's why we fired him? Because he was blatantly underperforming the season following the 5th place finish.

Think you are confusing cause and effect here. The question was, why if the squad wasn't in decline and poor and in need of rebuilding couldn't Emery continue getting results out of them?

 

[db10_therza]

Debates are 1vs1 "competitions", but the aim is the truth which is what matters.

Yes, you stopped answering in this case also no matter how much I asked you. You didn't even answer if you understand the problems in those charts, and likely don't, because you keep repeating how lucky Arteta has been regarding injuries.

It looks very silly. I for example have said that we haven't had the most injuries, but there have been a lot of injury worries to important players compared to our squad size. This is what you do when you try to be objective, admit the facts.

I applaud the intent to get to the truth but 90% of what’s debated here is subjective. There is no objective truth to be found. So no need to keep digging and chipping. This injury thing is a perfect example. You can get one metric that shows arteta was lucky (total injury days). Another that shows he was unlucky (injuries to key players at key moments). Which one is more relevant comes down to opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own.

You can literally just argue this to infinity otherwise. It’ll go sth like - yes he had key injuries when we were 4th that contributed to us finishing 5th. But arguably we were only in 4th in the first place because he didn’t have that many injuries throughout the season. But we didn’t have injuries because we weren’t in Europe. But we weren’t in Europe because we were rubbish the season before. Etc etc, ad nauseum.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

I hear there’s a job going at the Spanish Inquisition.

And when they arrive they will not get you to answer!

 

[Makingtrax]

Debates are 1vs1 "competitions", but the aim is the truth which is what matters.

Yes, you stopped answering in this case also no matter how much I asked you. You didn't even answer if you understand the problems in those charts, and likely don't, because you keep repeating how lucky Arteta has been regarding injuries.

It looks very silly. I for example have said that we haven't had the most injuries, but there have been a lot of injury worries to important players compared to our squad size. This is what you do when you try to be objective, admit the facts.

Mate, they’re not 1 v 1 competitions. Two people can see the same information and come to different conclusions. If I’ve learnt anything on this forum, it’s that. Going back and forth with constant counter arguments gets you nowhere.

A good example is the last two years of Wenger. How you can see him dropping out of the top 4 as natural decline is beyond me. No manager could have withstood all that toxic stuff, the club was in panic. And the supporting evidence is 20 years of continuous top 4 prior. But somehow you think the game passed him by. Unbelievable, but there you are.

 

[Makingtrax]

And when they arrive they will not get you to answer!

Hate to break to you, but it’s been and gone. #knowyourhistory

 

[drippin]

Think you are confusing cause and effect here. The question was, why if the squad wasn't in decline and poor and in need of rebuilding couldn't Emery continue getting results out of them?

Also, isn't it a possibility that in his first year Emery overachieved? He missed 4th by one point with that squad. He got 7 points more than Wenger in his last season.

I think he overachieved regarding points tally, not necessarily regarding performances.

 

[drippin]

Mate, they’re not 1 v 1 competitions. Two people can see the same information and come to different conclusions. If I’ve learnt anything on this forum, it’s that. Going back and forth with constant counter arguments gets you nowhere.

A good example is the last two years of Wenger. How you can see him dropping out of the top 4 as natural decline is beyond me. No manager could have withstood all that toxic stuff, the club was in panic. And the supporting evidence is 20 years of continuous top 4 prior. But somehow you think the game passed him by. Unbelievable, but there you are.

They are competitions, because that competition feeling will help both to give their all to finding the truth in between the views and information both have.

Counter-arguments is how you find the truth, not stopping the debate when you're losing/can't admit anything towards the points the other one makes.

Game didn't pass Wenger by, but his squad building got bad and he left a mess. Which was very sad.

 

[blrgooner]

People just don't wanna hear it bro, if you admit that the squad was bad previously, just not thaaaat bad, or that Arteta has done very well this season but needed his own players to really get there, all that people will take from that is that you're trying to make a back handed compliment.

Tbh though like you said......some managers at the top are like that, and I don't know if even someone like Pep takes a rag tag bunch and gets them to "over perform" so to speak. So there's nothing wrong with that.

Well I won`t disagree with that. That is not a back handed compliment. you are saying that Arteta used a particular method to improve without judging the method itself and that is fine. I would also say that someone like Klopp used the same method to improve in Liverpool for example. He replaced the whole team in 2-3 years( I think he made 30+ signings). I think Klopp is probably easily one of the best managers out there and who am I to say that his methods are wrong.

I think the back handed compliment is when people come up with some kind of an excuse to show that his improvement has nothing to do with competence. The idea is simple, understand that we haven`t spent like crazy. We may have brought in many players, but our actual expenditure over a significant period of time is not majorly different when compared to our rivals our actual expenditure in the past couple of years is very similar to the expenditure for a few years before that. So if he needed his own players to get there, he has gotten his own players within the context of a "limited and comparable budget"(I am not necessarily saying that its a "low budget" here and also I am considering both transfer fees and wages). So while you may question the need for replacing the entire team, we should give him credit for getting a set of "his players" within a decent budget and getting them to play decent stuff.

 

[Macho]

View attachment 9599

It was beyond bad for me, top squad on the way for a big decline with fat wages

I'm sure it was a horrendously bad sqaud to you and many others, they weren't the most likeable compared to the energetic fresh shaven young guys we have today. There are some clear and undeniable upgrades like Laca and Jesus or Pepe to the consistency to Saka so you just have to say fair dos.

But then there are just loads of things where some of you go very overboard.

- Is Sambi better than Guendouzi? That's an obvious no as it stands.

- Is Ramsdale really that much better than both Leno and Martinez? Cause to me none of them are world class you could pick any of them and the results largely stay the same in my humble opinion.

- How far apart is Tierney and Zinchenko? Is one really that much better or do they just play differently?

- Has Ødegaard to date shown he can match Özil's initial seasons at the club? Ødegaard shows a better eye for goal and more dilligent pressing but at 23 he reminds me a lot of latter Özil than the one that got the extension. Subtle influence rather than a needle mover.

- Does Martinelli and ESR combined match peak Aubameyang's impact? There's no guarantee and they might not even get the chance to if Arsenal get CL and they get upgraded on.

- Ben White/Tomi/Cedric > Bellerin/AMN? Defensively absolutely, but that took 70 mil and 2 of them are mainly centrebacks that aren't great at going forward with one having the old head role in the squad. None of the three is the definitive answer long term.

In any case, the club has spent 300-350 mil in Arteta's tenure? Jesus and Partey aside the better players still at the club were largely here before Arteta stepped through the door anyways. With some luck and over performance from Mikel, it was capable of getting top 4 in previous seasons mostly due to the state our rivals though.

 

[drippin]

I applaud the intent to get to the truth but 90% of what’s debated here is subjective. There is no objective truth to be found. So no need to keep digging and chipping. This injury thing is a perfect example. You can get one metric that shows arteta was lucky (total injury days). Another that shows he was unlucky (injuries to key players at key moments). Which one is more relevant comes down to opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own.

You can literally just argue this to infinity otherwise. It’ll go sth like - yes he had key injuries when we were 4th that contributed to us finishing 5th. But arguably we were only in 4th in the first place because he didn’t have that many injuries throughout the season. But we didn’t have injuries because we weren’t in Europe. But we weren’t in Europe because we were rubbish the season before. Etc etc, ad nauseum.

Well, if Trax would admit that the charts he shows do have problems and can't just be taken at face value, or that Arteta had many injuries to key players etc., then there would be no reason to continue it like this.

He doesn't do this at all, but continues spreading his propaganda even after I have shown the problems with my arguments, that he ignores totally. On the other hand I have admitted his point that we had less injuries overall than the other rival teams.

So the other debater admits to the points the other makes, and the other debater ignores the points and continues like nothing has happened. It's very silly, when things could be much easier and left totally behind when both understand the point the other is making.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

Also, isn't it a possibility that in his first year Emery overachieved? He missed 4th by one point with that squad. He got 7 points more than Wenger in his last season.

I think he overachieved regarding points tally, not necessarily regarding performances.

I agree with that. The squad needed a rebuild. Problem was it was older and on high wages making a rebuild more difficult.

Think we all can agree we would have loved a quicker and smoother rebuild with better results. We didn't get that, but that must always have been the expectations of the club ownership. They cannot hire a totally unproven and inexperienced manager and expect quick and smooth sailing in the situation we were.

I actually give KSE some credit here. They have handled the last 3 years well once they decided on Arteta and Edu. And I used to really dislike them!

 

[drippin]

I'm sure it was a horrendously bad sqaud to you and many others, they weren't the most likeable compared to the energetic fresh shaven young guys we have today. There are some clear and undeniable upgrades like Laca and Jesus or Pepe to the consistency to Saka so you just have to say fair dos.

But then there are just loads of things where some of you go very overboard.

- Is Sambi better than Guendouzi? That's an obvious no as it stands.

- Is Ramsdale really that much better than both Leno and Martinez? Cause to me none of them are world class you could pick any of them and the results largely stay the same in my humble opinion.

- How far apart is Tierney and Zinchenko? Is one really that much better or do they just play differently?

- Has Ødegaard to date shown he can match Özil's initial seasons at the club? Ødegaard shows a better eye for goal and more dilligent pressing but at 23 he reminds me a lot of latter Özil than the one that got the extension.

- Does Martinelli and ESR combined match peak Aubameyang's impact? There's no guarantee and they might not even get the chance to if Arsenal get CL and they get upgraded on.

- Ben White/Tomi/Cedric > Bellerin/AMN? Defensively absolutely, but that took 70 mil and 2 of them are mainly centrebacks who aren't great at going forward with one having the old head role in the squad. None of the three is the definitive answer long term.

In any case, the club has spent 300-350 mil in Arteta's tenure? Jesus and Partey aside the better players still at the club were largely here before Arteta stepped through the door anyways. It wasn't good no, but it was capable of getting top 4 in previous seasons mostly due to our rivals. Would have taken some over performance from Mikel to be fair to him.

You should only compare the last two seasons when Wenger didn't get top 4 anymore, and the squad started declining. It makes no sense to compare Özil that was still great, it has nothing to do with this. Then we had Alexis too, in his prime one of the best players in EPL history even imo.

We have now EPL adjusted Ødegaard plus Vieira vs. past-it Özil.

Auba is one of the players who are good enough there. Basically you should compared Nketiah with Laca, because Nketiah was better than Laca at the end of last season. Then you compare Jesus with Auba, and you take Jesus every day. Then you have more mature/developed ESR/Martinelli (and Nketiah and Saka etc.) than back then.

Sambi is not as good as Guendouzi, a bit worse than that very young Guendouzi, and now the gap is bigger.

It's not about Tierney and Zinchenko being apart in level. It's about having two great LB's, while Tierney is injury-prone.

White/Tomi/Cedric is three players for RB, while Bellerin was past it after the bad injury, and AMN not very good at defending either.

Ramsdale is on a different planet regarding playing with feet, which is very important for modern football.

 

[drippin]

View attachment 9599

It was beyond bad for me, top squad on the way for a big decline with fat wages

@Nacho what about Luiz, Mustafi, Sokratis, Kolasinac, Ceballos, Chambers?

Really, Luiz was good enough imo, but getting too old. He also was an emergency buy because we had no ball-playing CB's at all and FFP limited us.

These players are not good enough to start at Arsenal for modern football, although I think Chambers got too many injuries and could have been a good buy from Wenger.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

Sambi is not as good as Guendouzi, a bit worse than that very young Guendouzi, and now the gap is bigger.

Guendouzi is the one that got away. I wish Arteta could have handled him better! But he seems like a difficult character and it probably wasn't helped by the squad around him. Maybe if he came into today's squad things might have been different.