Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[db10_therza]

I'm sure it was a horrendously bad sqaud to you and many others, they weren't the most likeable compared to the energetic fresh shaven young guys we have today. There are some clear and undeniable upgrades like Laca and Jesus or Pepe to the consistency to Saka so you just have to say fair dos.

But then there are just loads of things where some of you go very overboard.

- Is Sambi better than Guendouzi? That's an obvious no as it stands.

- Is Ramsdale really that much better than both Leno and Martinez? Cause to me none of them are world class you could pick any of them and the results largely stay the same in my humble opinion.

- How far apart is Tierney and Zinchenko? Is one really that much better or do they just play differently?

- Has Ødegaard to date shown he can match Özil's initial seasons at the club? Ødegaard shows a better eye for goal and more dilligent pressing but at 23 he reminds me a lot of latter Özil than the one that got the extension. Subtle influence rather than a needle mover.

- Does Martinelli and ESR combined match peak Aubameyang's impact? There's no guarantee and they might not even get the chance to if Arsenal get CL and they get upgraded on.

- Ben White/Tomi/Cedric > Bellerin/AMN? Defensively absolutely, but that took 70 mil and 2 of them are mainly centrebacks that aren't great at going forward with one having the old head role in the squad. None of the three is the definitive answer long term.

In any case, the club has spent 300-350 mil in Arteta's tenure? Jesus and Partey aside the better players still at the club were largely here before Arteta stepped through the door anyways. With some luck and over performance from Mikel, it was capable of getting top 4 in previous seasons mostly due to the state our rivals though.

It all comes down to the style and system of play right?

Ramsdale is much much better with the ball at his feet that Leno or Ospina.

Zinchenko is much better than tierney at being an inverted fullback.

BenW + Tomi IS much much better than post injury bellerin in every which way. And you shouldn’t count AMN there because he didn’t want to play at RB. I have no time for AMN supporters for this reason, he wasn’t a soldier for the club. You think zinchenko doesn’t want to play midfield? Course he does, but he doesn’t b*tch and moan about it. And he’s much more capable than that *****.

Peak Özil ****s all over Ødegaard. And tbh most AMs in the world, ever. But he also wasn’t the best presser, he moved a lot but it was to open up passing lanes, not to press. Ødegaard is instrumental to our press, and our press has been a huge factor in our success this season. Wasn’t just arteta either, Özil was also frozen out of Germany NT even before arteta did.

Having said all that, it was never a “horrendous squad” as some would have you believe so I get where you’re coming from. It’s improved and in my opinion the improvement has been worth what was spent to achieve it, and that’s all I care about.

 

[drippin]

Guendouzi is the one that got away. I wish Arteta could have handled him better! But he seems like a difficult character and it probably wasn't helped by the squad around him. Maybe if he came into today's squad things might have been different.

Yeah, always liked him as a player. Seems to have only matured more as a person after he got the child.

Arteta has lost the club much money with his strict view on the club culture. But we are now seeing the results of that attitude.

Guendouzi, Auba, likely Pepe. Özil wasn't worth anything with his big contract, current level and attitude. Those might be worth like 80-90 million euros loss.

But then you have him getting both Nketiah and Balogun extended. That might be worth 60 million currently, possibly more later if they develop well.

You have him playing Willock and selling him at the right time for 30 million. Willock was one I think who got many of the minutes that Özil could have. You have him attracting Jesus and Zinchenko for not big money when we don't have UCL. You have him getting Xhaka extended and playing his best football in his career, saving a lot of money.

Now if he gets Saka, Saliba and Martinelli extended with the football we are playing and results, he will have saved a humongous amount of money.

So we are seeing good results regarding the club culture, team spirit and results, while he will hopefully save us many times the money that his attitude/rules has cost Arsenal.

 

[dka1]

Think you are confusing cause and effect here. The question was, why if the squad wasn't in decline and poor and in need of rebuilding couldn't Emery continue getting results out of them?

I do get the point that you and boon are making, but I think it's too reductive to say the squad was poor and it's what led to Emery not being able to get results out of them during 19/20.

I think a big part of the issue was that he lost the dressing room and as was proven with Maureen at Chelski, when this happens you're doomed.

And don't get me wrong I'm really not trying to say the squad was great, it was a bit of a hodgepodge but I maintain that there were enough ingredients there to scramble together better finishes in the league.

However in fairness and in the interest of trying not to be biased, once Arteta started playing ESR, after we got Ødegaard and after Willian was deposed for Pepe (who got 10 goals that season), we were better in the 2nd half of the 20/21 season.

But then a big part was the 5 wins to close the season but by then there wasn't anything to play for (not only for us but a lot of the teams we played were already safe or had other priorities).

We were quite hot and cold in the league till that point, even in the 2nd half of the season.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

Comparing the latter Wenger years / Emery era players to the current one is an interesting debate and I think there's some merit in saying that the older side wasn't as awful as is sometimes made out.

You've got to look at it as a squad though, I think. Where the Wenger / Emery era squad falls down compared to this one is that it wasn't really a collective side. It was more individual good players.

This current Arsenal side is currently pretty clearly better than the sum of its parts. I don't think that was the case for the later years Wenger / Emery's side at all.

 

[GDeep™]

A-M crying because we dont create enough chances.

A-M crying because we try to use throw ins to create chances.

You again crying about others posts again. You’re nearly as bad a poster as @drippin and @grange nowadays.

 

[Macho]

Having said all that, it was never a “horrendous squad” as some would have you believe so I get where you’re coming from. It’s improved and in my opinion the improvement has been worth what was spent to achieve it, and that’s all I care about.

Well, I'm glad you saw my point. It wasn't good and clearly on the decline, but Europa places upwards wasn't impossible for that squad by any means with some luck and some overperformance from key individuals.

An old debate anyways, we wanted a better team, we wanted certain overpaid players gone, we want to be as high up the table as possible, all these things have happened so far. I think certain things about Mikel but there's geneuinely no reason to nitpick as it stands.

 

[drippin]

Comparing the latter Wenger years / Emery era players to the current one is an interesting debate and I think there's some merit in saying that the older side wasn't as awful as is sometimes made out.

You've got to look at it as a squad though, I think. Where the Wenger / Emery era squad falls down compared to this one is that it wasn't really a collective side. It was more individual good players.

This current Arsenal side is currently pretty clearly better than the sum of its parts. I don't think that was the case for the later years Wenger / Emery's side at all.

I have never said it was awful. I have said it had either old players, past-it players, past-it players for modern football, no ball-playing CB's at all which are expensive nowadays. Plus it had youth players who had to be developed for at least couple years to get good enough (apart from Saka.)

I can't agree that it was "more individual good players", there were like 4 good enough players like I have said.

You just could not generate good funds from most of these players, most were deadwood with big wages, and that put us into a great disadvantage compared to our rivals.

That's why the spending that Arteta has made is not that significant, because of the squad that he inherited that could not play attractive or modern football well.

 

[drippin]

You again crying about others posts again. You’re nearly as bad a poster as @drippin and @grange nowadays.

Look whose crying about crying. Good stuff @GDeep™ , we want more!

 

[db10_therza]

Well, I'm glad you saw my point. It wasn't good and clearly on the decline, but Europa places upwards wasn't impossible for that squad by any means with some luck and some overperformance from key individuals.

An old debate anyways, we wanted a better team, we wanted certain overpaid players gone, we want to be as high up the table as possible, all these things have happened so far. I think certain things about Mikel but there's geneuinely no reason to nitpick as it stands.

Don Carlo could have got 4th with that squad I reckon…

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

I have never said it was awful. I have said it had either old players, past-it players, past-it players for modern football, no ball-playing CB's at all which are expensive nowadays. Plus it had youth players who had to be developed for years to get good enough.

I can't agree that it was "more individual good players", there were like 4 good enough players like I have said.

You just could not generate good funds from most of these players, most were deadwood with big wages, and that put us into a great disadvantage compared to our rivals.

That's why the spending that Arteta has made is not that significant, because of the squad that he inherited that could not play attractive or modern football well.

It's okay, I didn't say that you said that squad was awful

What I meant was the squad at the time had some good players, but it wasn't really a great squad / side overall.

 

[drippin]

It's okay, I didn't say that you said that squad was awful

What I meant was the squad at the time had some good players, but it wasn't really a great squad / side overall.

When you look at the squad, I think it's obvious it can't produce attractive modern football.

Especially when Özil was past it, there was no other playmaker yet, and the results went up only after ESR & Ødegaard started playing. It had very young Guendouzi starting and saving with his performances what he could, he wasn't perfect at all, but we had not good creativity in midfield so getting him for cheap saved a lot of trouble still.

I think that squad was like 5th-6th, maybe 7th or 8th level in modern game and EPL. It wasn't a top 4 side anymore, which is why Wenger didn't get top 4 in his last two seasons.

And like I said, I think Emery overperformed in his first season with the points he got so basically I don't think it was 5th level. So it was worst of the top 6, or even a bit worse.

 

[dka1]

I'm sure it was a horrendously bad sqaud to you and many others, they weren't the most likeable compared to the energetic fresh shaven young guys we have today. There are some clear and undeniable upgrades like Laca and Jesus or Pepe to the consistency to Saka so you just have to say fair dos.

But then there are just loads of things where some of you go very overboard.

- Is Sambi better than Guendouzi? That's an obvious no as it stands.

- Is Ramsdale really that much better than both Leno and Martinez? Cause to me none of them are world class you could pick any of them and the results largely stay the same in my humble opinion.

- How far apart is Tierney and Zinchenko? Is one really that much better or do they just play differently?

- Has Ødegaard to date shown he can match Özil's initial seasons at the club? Ødegaard shows a better eye for goal and more dilligent pressing but at 23 he reminds me a lot of latter Özil than the one that got the extension. Subtle influence rather than a needle mover.

- Does Martinelli and ESR combined match peak Aubameyang's impact? There's no guarantee and they might not even get the chance to if Arsenal get CL and they get upgraded on.

- Ben White/Tomi/Cedric > Bellerin/AMN? Defensively absolutely, but that took 70 mil and 2 of them are mainly centrebacks that aren't great at going forward with one having the old head role in the squad. None of the three is the definitive answer long term.

In any case, the club has spent 300-350 mil in Arteta's tenure? Jesus and Partey aside the better players still at the club were largely here before Arteta stepped through the door anyways. With some luck and over performance from Mikel, it was capable of getting top 4 in previous seasons mostly due to the state our rivals though.

You make some good points and you've actually reminded me of things in the past that used to really frustrate me with Arteta especially the Guendouzi debacle, still can't believe we lost him for so little even if he was a bit of a tw*t.

I think when it's laid out like that, admittedly it does look like we've spent a lot unnecessarily and I think it's a fair question to ask if Arteta really couldn't have worked with certain players we had before.

However this is how I view it and where I think Edteta have done well.

1. It's very true that ability wise, currently Ramsdale, Martinez and Lenonade are similar (I mean Jay Leno wasn't as good with his feet but he was still decent and don't forget he's a fantastic talkshow host). But Ramsdale is young, English and has plenty of upside, plus he overdoes it sometimes but I can't help but love his passion, I think it's a good "project" signing so to speak (sorry for using that dirty word).

2. When the defense is viewed as a cluster imo it is in a different stratosphere than before. Gabi, White, Tomi and Zinny were all stellar signings imo (though we probably paid too much for Off-White) and we no longer have to rely on Mustafi, Kola, Mari, Cedric, Luiz or even Holding.

It's a bit convoluted though as Saliba and Tierney are both good but weren't signed by Edteta. Mari and Cedric kind of were but I personally believe that those signings were pushed by Raul, then again Raul signed who might be the best defender for the next decade in Saliba.

3. Zinny and Tierney aren't that far apart ability wise but as a pair it's very strong so Zinny is a good one in my book and necessary especially as cover in MF.

4. As for Ødegaard, defo not touching primezil yet, but Özil was different gravy at the time he signed and Ødegaard has definitely been a good signing considering we needed his type of player.

Will he ever be as good as prime Özil? I mean we'll have to see, I don't know if he will but I don't think he has to be, just has to be good for us now and he's doing pretty well, not saying he doesn't need to improve certain things though.

5. Sambi and Guen I have no arguments or objections. But well Arteta is just never going to want to nurture a player with that temperament. I think Wenger would've loved him though and would've been able to deal with him without much incident.

Edit: Whoops cos I forgot the most important thing, that is that the squad is much much better balanced now, compared with before. I think that's a big reason why I'm happy with the signings and the age of the squad is much lower overall so it's got big potential upswing.

 

[Trilly]

So ironic that our fanbase were the loudest on social media when Stoke, Burnley etc were doing it but they’re providing some Gary Neville style analysis on the benefits of it now

Our fans twerking for it whilst the legend himself said this:

Henry sounded like he was from ends when he said “are you mad”

My legend Forever.

 

[dka1]

You again crying about others posts again. You’re nearly as bad a poster as @drippin and @grange nowadays.

Leave Grange alone!!! He's alright in my books.

The rest....well they for the streets!!! (Just jokin...or am I! I am).

 

[Macho]

Jay Leno

Off-White

Zinny

primezil

Why are you like this?

Fair play for addressing my points from the pro-Arteta perspective.

 

[dka1]

Why are you like this?

Fair play for addressing my points from the pro-Arteta perspective.

I can't even help it at this point. I'm trying to be a normal calm headed poster but it slips out lol.

 

[grange]

You again crying about others posts again. You’re nearly as bad a poster as @drippin and @grange nowadays.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

You again crying about others posts again. You’re nearly as bad a poster as @drippin and @grange nowadays.

No need to kick me when Im already down. Why you not showing some mercy whenxIm having hard time???

 

[GDeep™]

No need to kick me when Im already down. Why you not showing some mercy whenxIm having hard time???

It’s only a football forum, if posts are affecting you then maybe take a break.

You just moan and whinge about other peoples posts now, doesn’t add much does it.

Good luck to you anyway.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

It’s only a football forum, if posts are affecting you then maybe take a break.

You just moan and whinge about other peoples posts now, doesn’t add much does it.

Good luck to you anyway.

Stop moaning and crying about my posts and focus on your self mate. If you dont like what I have to say then ignore me.