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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
Do City not look more dominant than last year though?

Many are arguing that the focus on Haaland makes them weaker, compared to goals from everywhere versions of the team in previous seasons. I kinda hear it, but I think Wenger was just being supportive/polite.

If the league was about who has the best and most balanced starting 11, you could consider Arsenal title challengers based on what we've seen but unfortunately you need much more than that.
 

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
Trusted ⭐

Country: Wales
Many are arguing that the focus on Haaland makes them weaker, compared to goals from everywhere versions of the team in previous seasons. I kinda hear it, but I think Wenger was just being supportive/polite.

If the league was about who has the best and most balanced starting 11, you could consider Arsenal title challengers based on what we've seen but unfortunately you need much more than that.

So I’ve seen that Haaland point about and I disagree. There were games last year that Jesus or their false 9 cost them points because they weren’t clinical enough.

They’re not reliant on Haaland for magic imo, they’re just creating a boatload of chances and he’s just banging them in.

If I had to give a percentage for my odds I’d say:

Man City at 75%
Sp**s at 15%
Arsenal at 10%
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
So I’ve seen that Haaland point about and I disagree. There were games last year that Jesus or their false 9 cost them points because they weren’t clinical enough.

Agreed on this, I'm just saying it makes sense people would come to that conclusion but I think City can cope with the inevitable Haaland omission they've done it for so long. His understudy doesn't look too shabby either.

Also, it's Pep I don't think he would ever allow one of his teams to become so reliant on one player (admittedly I didn't watch Bayern when he was there so dunno how he dealt with Lewa).
 

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
Trusted ⭐

Country: Wales
Agreed on this, I'm just saying it makes sense people would come to that conclusion but I think City can cope with the inevitable Haaland omission they've done it for so long. His understudy doesn't look too shabby either.

Also, it's Pep I don't think he would ever allow one of his teams to become so reliant on one player (admittedly I didn't watch Bayern when he was there so dunno how he dealt with Lewa).

Yeah Alvarez looks class as well.

They’ve got the most top creators in the league by a healthy margin and guys like Mahrez or Gundogan are great at grabbing goals as well.

Long way to go but I feel like with Haaland they’re going to be so hard to put away.
 

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
Haaland makes them more of a threat in transition, in chaos situations, and in cup competitions. He makes them CL favourites imo.

We're still watching them adapt to him but i'm not sure he earns them more points yet
 

CaseUteinberger

Established Member

Country: Sweden
Haaland makes them more of a threat in transition, in chaos situations, and in cup competitions. He makes them CL favourites imo.

We're still watching them adapt to him but i'm not sure he earns them more points yet
They sure don't need more points! That is for sure! Lord hear us!

prayer GIF
 

Tir Na Nog

Changes Opinion Every 5 Minutes

Country: Ireland
Do City not look more dominant than last year though?

Agree with Le Prof though. Certain clowns on here who I won’t @ were sending me death threats in July for predicting a Sp**s - Arsenal title race.

Now they’re acting like they knew all along. Sad to see imo.

Overall no, but Haaland is a cheat code. He'll win them points and games all on his own.
 

Tir Na Nog

Changes Opinion Every 5 Minutes

Country: Ireland
Squad management will be important tho, as much of a factor EL might be will it be anymore of a factor than CL for City? We can manage in the EL not playing the likes of Partey, Gabriel, Ramsdale, Ødegaard and Saka up until the real latter stages.

I think City are the favourites but I think if there's a team that could take advantage of them maybe not being as consistent as last year then I think we're best placed to do it.
 

Entropics

Established Member

Country: Colombia

Player:Saka
Do City not look more dominant than last year though?

Agree with Le Prof though. Certain clowns on here who I won’t @ were sending me death threats in July for predicting a Sp**s - Arsenal title race.

Now they’re acting like they knew all along. Sad to see imo.

Wenger knew thanks to the unprecedented world cup this season is a free hit, not just for us but for everyone.

Not really a crazy prediction there
 

MA08

Active Member
This is not true. Emery had us in 8th place when he was sacked whilst during the first half of the following season Arteta had us in 15th place. He was very lucky not to be sacked at that time. The point should be made that arteta did not manage the player toxicity any better than emery; it was just he was given the power to remove the toxicity from the club through contract terminations. Emery was never given that power, he was just a coach.
He was not given that because the decision makers never felt he could do that?
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
This is not true. Emery had us in 8th place when he was sacked whilst during the first half of the following season Arteta had us in 15th place. He was very lucky not to be sacked at that time. The point should be made that arteta did not manage the player toxicity any better than emery; it was just he was given the power to remove the toxicity from the club through contract terminations. Emery was never given that power, he was just a coach.
That's your interpretation, and there's definitely, IMO, some bias in it. Arteta wouldn't have been given extra powers if he did not give the club and the players reason to believe in him in his first half season, and did not take steps to manage the toxicity in the club, succeeding at it far better than Em*ry (admittedly low bar).

The rest can basically be responded to with the below post. The idea that Em*ry did not take our club to new lows and did not represent a major step back for this club is really impossible to refute if you are willing to look at the stats and things with something of an open mind.

Indeed, but I'm not the one who posts data in isolation, I actually do the opposite of that.

Singling out random stats like big chances created *(1) or omitting completely the actual state of the team that Em*ry picked up *(2) or that Em*ry left *(3) is what people do when trying to distort the narrative and make it seem like Em*ry is better than he was and Arteta worse than he actually is (a narrative which is the party line and political ideology of Arteta haters)

*(3) you do here:



*(1): @Sebastes elegantly points out here why metrics like xG (xPTS) are far preferred to selectively picking out statistics like big chances created, which really don't have any necessary correlation to success or results (even if we were to go into statistics used in a specious way, possession would even be preferable to big chances created, and we know of course the pitfalls of the possession stat):



You can see before that and in the discussion following in the post linked above which precedes Sebastes' fine explanation, more discussion about why xG tells us a lot more than these stats, and why it strikes me as pretty obvious that people are just using big chances created because it's the stat that makes Mikel look bad, when it's not a stat that has been proven to have any real interesting link to results and success, and a weird one to make such a big fuss about, really.



*(2) Since people seem to have a selective memory here, let's remember the actual state of the team when Arteta picked it up, in the most objective manner possible:

-Arteta picked up the team on 26 December, 2019, in 11th place, on 24 pts in 19 matches, on a 1.31 xPTS/g pace.
-Em*ry left the team on 26 November, 2019, marginally in 8th place (1 pt from 10th and 3 pts from 14th), on 18 pts in 13 matches, on a 1.23 xPTS/g pace.

Here are the 13 games Em*ry managed in 19-20:

Newcastle vs. Arsenal:
Shots: 9-8
On target: 2-2
Possession: 38-62
xG: 0.38-1.13

Arsenal vs. Burnley
Shots: 15-18
On target: 9-5
Possession: 68-32
xG: 1.16-1.39

Liverpool vs. Arsenal
Shots: 25-9
On target: 5-3
Possession: 52-48
xG: 2.79-0.99

Arsenal vs. Tottenham
Shots: 26-13
On target: 8-9
Possession: 55-45
xG: 1.93-1.96

Watford vs. Arsenal
Shots: 31-7
On target: 10-4
Possession: 52-48
xG: 2.83-1.01

Arsenal vs. Aston Villa
Shots: 21-14
On target: 6-9
Possession: 58-42
xG: 2.53-1.72

Manchester United vs. Arsenal
Shots: 16-10
On target: 4-5
Possession: 55-45
xG: 1.13-1.70

Arsenal vs. Bournemouth
Shots: 12-10
On target: 2-2
Possession: 52-48
xG: 1.24-0.68

Sheffield United vs. Arsenal
Shots: 8-9
On target: 2-3
Possession: 31-69
xG: 0.90-0.95

Arsenal vs. Crystal Palace
Shots: 15-10
On target: 6-4
Possession: 56-44
xG: 1.54-1.78

Arsenal vs. Wolves
Shots: 10-24
On target: 4-8
Possession: 58-42
xG: 1.03-1.51

Leicester City vs. Arsenal
Shots: 19-8
On target: 7-1
Possession: 50-50
xG: 1.37-0.96

Arsenal vs. Southampton
Shots: 12-21
On target: 5-6
Possession: 61-39
xG: 1.61-2.60

-----------------------------------------------------

So, to sum up:

--In 13 fixtures, composed of: (A) 13 , (H) 10, (A) 1, (H) 6, (A) 19, (H) 17, (A) 3, (H) 18, (A) 9, (H) 14, (H) 7, (A) 5, (H) 11 (----average position of fixture list: 10.23, 7 H, 6 A----)

we had:

GF: 18
GA: 19

Shots F: 162
Shots A: 218

Shots on target F: 58
Shots on target A: 73

Possession: 56.15%

xGF: 17.78
xGA: 21.04

Pts pace: 52.61 (11th)
xPTS pace: 46.7 (14th)





----------------------------------------------------

So yeah, let's remind: this is the actual level Arteta picked the team up at. He didn't pick up the team at the beginning of 19-20 after a full pre-season, as Em*ry did in 18-19* (1), and that level that the team was at when Arteta took charge isn't just some vacuum in the space time continuum as most of you pushing this agenda seem to make us want to believe. That was the performance level of the team, that was the way the team was going, that was how it was faring compared to competition in the same league in the same season that Arteta would pick it up, so that, for those very reasons, is one of the most interesting samples we have in comparing Arteta and Em*ry, and obviously not to be completely excluded from the question as it routinely (laughably) is here.

*(1) So, what performance level did Em*ry pick the team up at?

17-18:

PTS: 63 (5th)
xPTS: 65.90 / 1.73 pg (5th)
GF: 74 (4th)
xGF: 72.27 (3rd)
GA: 51 (8th)
xGA: 48.75 (7th)

Shots F: 590 (5th)
Shots A: 419 (6th)
Shots on target F: 227 (3rd)
Shots on target A: 142 (5th)
Possession: 61.5% (3rd)

What performance level did Em*ry take the team to, in the following season?

18-19:

PTS: 70 (5th)
xPTS: 58.97 / 1.551 pg (7th)
GF: 73 (3rd)
xGF: 64.80 (4th)
GA: 51 (9th)
xGA: 57.30 (11th)

Shots F: 467 (11th)
Shot A: 488 (10th)
Shots on target F: 159 (8th)
Shots on target A: 173 (15th)
Possession: 58.0 (5th)


What performance level did Em*ry leave the club at?

GF: 18 (10th)
GA: 19 (12th)

Shots F: 162
Shots A: 218

Shots on target F: 58
Shots on target A: 73

Possession: 56.15%

xGF: 17.78 (11th)
xGA: 21.04 (12th)

Pts pace: 52.61 / 1.38pg (11th)
xPTS pace: 46.7 / 1.23pg (14th)


What was Arteta's performance level in the 20 games he managed, having picked up 5 games later?

GF: 32 (5th)
GA: 21 (5th)

Shots F: ---- (I would have to go sum up the shots for and against for the shots categories and possession in the Ljungberg games, and subtract them and the Em*ry totals from the final season totals, and I'm already putting enough work in as it is 😅)
Shots A: ----

Shots on target F: ----
Shots on target A: ----

Possession: -----

xGF: 27.16 (11th)
xGA: 31.16 (14th)

Pts pace: 62.7 / 1.65pg (6th)
xPTS pace: 50.1 / 1.32pg (9th)



What was Arteta's performance level in his first full season, having brought standards up marginally from where Em*ry left them? (to the levels above)

PTS: 61 / 1.60pg (8th)
xPTS: 58.72 / 1.545 pg (8th)
GF: 55 (9th)
xGF: 52.25 (11th)
GA: 39 (3rd)
xGA: 43.23 (5th)

Shots F: 455 (11th)
Shot A: 419 (6th)
Shots on target F: 141 (13th)
Shots on target A: 128 (4th)
Possession: 53.8 (7th)



What performance level has Arteta taken the team to in his second full season (first without COVID pandemic and full pre-season)?

PTS: 69 / 1.82pg (5th)
xPTS: 64.76 / 1.70pg (5th)
GF: 61 (6th)
xGF: 63.39 (5th)
GA: 48 (8th)
xGA: 48.39 (7th)

Shots F: 555 (4th)
Shots A: 412 (4th)
Shots on target F: 177 (4th)
Shots on target A: 139 (6th)
Possession: 52.6% (6th)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

***TAKE-AWAYS:

1. The major decline from Wenger's last season to Em*ry's first is undeniable, and only the daftest person would point to his superior pts total (thanks to outperforming his xPTS by a whopping 11.03) to suggest otherwise. In the span of one summer, with decent reinforcements, no important losses to the squad, and a full season of a world-class striker at his disposal (which--my opinion here--makes the Em*ry team better on paper than the Wenger one), we saw these shifts:

PTS: 63 (5th) ----- 70 (5th)
xPTS: 65.90 /1.73pg (5th) ----- 58.97 / 1.551pg (7th)
GF: 74 (4th) ---- 73 (3rd)
xGF: 72.27 (3rd) ---- 64.80 (4th)
GA: 51 (8th) ---- 51 (9th)
xGA: 48.75 (7th) ---- 57.30 (11th)

Shots F: 590 (5th) ---- 467 (11th)
Shots A: 419 (6th) ---- 488 (10th)
Shots on target F: 227 (3rd) ---- 159 (8th)
Shots on target A: 142 (5th) ---- 173 (15th)
Possession: 61.5% (3rd) ---- 58.0 % (5th)


(Truly amazing when you look at these stats, and if I've learned anything from this exercise, is that the massive change in fortunes from Wenger to Em*ry was even greater than I perceived. We got worse, in absolutely every category minus PTS--which has an asterisk because the league position is the same and league climate is relevant. We got significantly worse in every category minus GF. We got alarmingly worse in most categories, from xG data to going from being a team that had 170 more shots than opponents and 85 on target more to a team that was outshout and outshout on target 😵‍💫

In short, you'd have to be daft to argue that there was not a massive, direct decline from Wenger to Em*ry, as literally the only thing you can say he was better at was being lucky, and the statistics are overwhelming, as we can see)


2. The decline continues then to rather stunning mid to lower-mid table depths in the following season in all categories. Arteta's incoming marks a positive turn in fortunes in most all categories, especially the most indicative ones (xPTS), but perhaps a lesser one than one might've hoped, given how poor the performance levels really were (this is where I'd really love to see more discussion: that performance improved from Em*ry to Arteta is really irrefutable, but it'd be great if the forum was interested in more debatable questions like: ex. What was happening in the league / the league climate to allow our performance levels to drop so much? Is there more to the story than Em*ry is just far worse than Wenger, and Arteta just a bit better than Em*ry that season? Is Em*ry perhaps a bit better than he seems from the raw stats, Wenger a bit worse, and Arteta, well, more or less the same but perhaps there are some lessons to glean about his working conditions here...¿?)

3. An analysis of where Arteta took the team to in his first season and where Em*ry took the season to in his first season, despite picking up from such radically different starting points (to use an example I'll often use, as radically different as those Simeone picked Atléti up in to where his predecessor will, or as different as Hughes picked up City at to where Mancini picked City up at...the difference between 1.73 xPTS/g and 1.23 xPTS/g is the difference between a 5th place and 14th place performance level...), reveals a quite similar performance level in Arteta's first full season and Em*ry's first, despite this amazing difference.

4. Our performance in Arteta's second full season is the closest we have gotten to Wenger's level of performance, and is really quite close, and while I am massively disappointed with the way this season has ended, the missed chance (mostly that of no European football to contend with, as in the end 71 PTS is a decent bar for 4th), and have serious doubts about Arteta as a manager and do feel like he hasn't lived up to my (perhaps overly-optimistic) expectations for him, to put a long story short, using xPTS as the best indicator to sum up all of this data:

17-18: 1.73 ---- 18-19: 1.55 ---- 19-20 (Em*ry): 1.23 --- 19-20 (Arteta): 1.32 --- 20/21: 1.545 --- 21/22: 1.70 is really interesting progress, and while perhaps not as dramatic as we like, the trends are undeniable*, and Arteta deserves credit from taking the team from a 1.23/g level (14th) to a 1.70 (5th) level in the span of 2 1/2 seasons.

*To finally end this essay, this takes me back to why I think it is really hard to refute the comment I made that started off this whole debate, @Mrs Bergkamp:



Re: this statement, I actually think the most ambiguous part would be the late-era Wenger decline, but I assume that is rather easy to demonstrate too, and anyways we all more or less agree on it.


In short...I come back to this, and the fact that I really don't understand how there can be so much debate over a topic that seems so overwhelmingly clear and easy to demonstrate, and why we must waste so much time on it (and why there seem to be so many people with hate fuelled agendas--rabid dogs as I call them--that want to make this a debate in the first place). But I take that perhaps my tone will always be grating, but I also must say that I believe in intellectual honesty and scientific integrity, and I believe, in short, in calling a spade a spade in debate, and if you believe in all of those things I think it's hard to have a different tone than I do, re: this debate, and I hope going to all the effort I have to put these statistics together will demonstrate why it seems so clear to me that this is a matter of calling a spade a spade, and will show that I am willing to humbly back up my position in full. If not, well, I will always be able to cite this post instead of getting dragged into this tiresome and rather stupid (IMHO) argument, in hopes that we can discuss some of the more interesting things I suggest above.
 

DJ_Markstar

Based and Artetapilled

Player:Martinelli
So I’ve seen that Haaland point about and I disagree. There were games last year that Jesus or their false 9 cost them points because they weren’t clinical enough.

They’re not reliant on Haaland for magic imo, they’re just creating a boatload of chances and he’s just banging them in.

If I had to give a percentage for my odds I’d say:

Man City at 75%
Sp**s at 15%
Arsenal at 10%

Sp**s? Winning an EPL?

No Way Commando GIF by 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment
 

blrgooner

Established Member
Since 2019 we’ve had the second highest investment of any club in the major European 5 leagues according to transfermarkt. That’s some backing the club have given Arteta.

AE937-FCC-647-A-478-A-81-E8-4-E4-B202-C90-B3.jpg
While this is true, around 105-110m of this was spent on 2019 when Emery was the coach. Emery had us playing terrible football and we were in 8th position when he was sacked. Before Arteta took over, we reached 10th or 11th position. Given all this and the fact that you seem to suggest that we were harsh on Emery is there a contradiction somewhere? If we are looking at these numbers, Emery was backed atleast as much financially as Arteta was.
 

SA Gunner

Hates Tierney And Wants Him Sold Immediately
Moderator

Country: South Africa

Player:Nketiah
Sp**s? Winning an EPL?

No Way Commando GIF by 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment

There is a chance, and Im not just saying that because they have Conte. I dont rate Conte as highly as others out there.

What gives Sp**s are chance is that they are built around opposition frailties and mistakes (pressing lapses, loss of the ball in key areas) as well as well planned set plays. Add to that a desire to always be at least on par with their opposition and it makes for a strong combination.

Basically Mourinho with some stylistic tweaks.

They have the tools and desire to be up there this season, you cannot write them off for the title.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
While this is true, around 105-110m of this was spent on 2019 when Emery was the coach. Emery had us playing terrible football and we were in 8th position when he was sacked. Before Arteta took over, we reached 10th or 11th position. Given all this and the fact that you seem to suggest that we were harsh on Emery is there a contradiction somewhere? If we are looking at these numbers, Emery was backed atleast as much financially as Arteta was.
You've got to include the 2019 window for Arteta, OK he wasn't here until December, but got he huge benefit from it, Pepe helped him win the FA Cup and Saliba, Martinelli and Tierney are driving his bid for top 4 this year.
 

blrgooner

Established Member
You've got to include the 2019 window for Arteta, OK he wasn't here until December, but got he huge benefit from it, Pepe helped him win the FA Cup and Saliba, Martinelli and Tierney are driving his bid for top 4 this year.
I am not saying that you should not include 2019 for Arteta, but shouldn`t you definitely include 2019 window for Emery?
Between 2018/2019-20, we spend 216m pounds, which is pretty similar to the average amount of money we have spend in the next 3 years. So obviously, Emery also got the same amount of "backing" as Arteta got.

I see people make excuses about how some signings were not really "Emery signings" if that excuse is valid, it is valid for Arteta also. It can`t work both ways.
 

BigPoppaPump

Reeling from Laca & Kos nightmares
Do City not look more dominant than last year though?

Agree with Le Prof though. Certain clowns on here who I won’t @ were sending me death threats in July for predicting a Sp**s - Arsenal title race.

Now they’re acting like they knew all along. Sad to see imo.
City have been kinda weak on defence this year Dias and Stones have been off form, they just know they'll always come back and the Premier League defending last few years has been poor. A solid defence with good counter attacking could beat them.
 

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