The rewritting history thread, or how Mikel/Arsenal turned it around. Or didn't. What even IS real?

[Makingtrax]

The only time I was ever Arteta out in his entire time here was out of emotion after that Brentford 1st game of the season more because I was pissed he loaned out out Saliba. I went back to backing him a few days later.

Spent countless times debating with the likes of you and other Trusted members on topics like Özil, Auba and Arteta which I was correct on all of them about lol.

Some of you guys are tryna move the goalposts, just hold the L

Lol. I'll just leave here.

 

[jones]

You know very well that Laca, Ceballos, Martinez were not the problems I was referring to. Neither was Joe Willock. All three were of importance and released for different reasons than the one reason I mentioned: clearing the rot.

Laca was end of lifetime in PL though Mikel rated him highly. Martinez did not want to compete with Ramsdale (or was it Leno?) and Ceballos was useful but didn't make enough impact to be permanently signed. People would have crucified Arteta if he was. He only just now caught a patch of form.

Even Auba wasn't a problem until last season when things turned sour. That is down to both Mikel's and Auba's character and obviously the drop in added value.

Nah bro I don't, I just saw a mention of the "rotten" squad like we were a relegation outfit. I actually don't give Arteta stick for siding with Leno over Martinez, I rated the latter higher but at the time there was no knowing what trajectory both would be on.

There were certain players like Özil where it's beyond any doubt they had to be released for their bad influence, Mustafi because he was **** beyond saving etc. I think overall it's a massively overblown factor however, and far from a situation where the firesale that ensued was the only way to make it work.

Again Xhaka is the best example for this , you said he has great mentality which is fair to say now but at one point he gave the Emirates the finger, threw the captain's armband and his team mates under the bus, twerked for Mourinho etc. Arteta ignored all of it and stuck by him and we're reaping the rewards now.

On the other hand a 20 year old Guendouzi is being portrayed as some evil mastermind poisoning everything he touches, Auba was crippling the entire club for coming in late etc. Arteta did his picking and choosing, in few instances it worked in several it didn't. I don't see why it's impossible to rate him and acknowledge that he made these mistakes.

 

[Nunowoolmez]

Arteta sometimes references mistakes he has made & I alway wonder what those were...

I think the club papered over deep cracks with winning FA Cups & getting to EL Final. The team was near enough carried by guys like Alexis & then Auba (I mean by output alone - their goals won us a lot of games), but there were clearly huge issues at the club.

It feels like when Wenger came at a time Arsenal were not doing great. Different circumstances & obviously he had a great core set of players to inherit (famous 5, Seaman, Platt, Wright, Bergkamp, Merse), but there was not a good vibe. He totally changed everything & the rest us history.

Teta has come in when the league is a lot more competitive, had a motley crew of a squad, & it's his first job. I think hes done as well as could be expected tbh. Hes even won a trophy, so hes doing ok.

 

[Red London]

Lol. I'll just leave here.

Yeh this was when I was vexed about Saliba. I was very against Ramsdale at the time if I remember correctly.

Lol show that post but disregard the countless debates I had with you lot about Arteta.

As I said you're just tryna move the goalposts to save face. You were heavily heavily Arteta out.

Just hold the L like a man.

 

[jones]

Ceballos always praises Arteta as well, calls him a top coach who helped him a lot. Dani was also instrumental in our cup win, him and Xhaka were immense together. Not really a stick you can use to beat Arteta with.

I wasn't using him as a stick to beat anyone with, I mentioned him as an example because Camron said "most of the team didn't do anything after leaving us". Our 2020 team wasn't ****, sure it was in a difficult state and Arteta didn't cover himself in glory.

Maybe it was unfair to expect a rookie to handle it any better but no need to rewrite history as if no one could've done any better.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

But didn’t Arteta come in and win the FA Cup almost immediately after his arrival at the club? He did it playing almost exactly the way Ten Hag and Howe are playing football right now too.

There is no doubt that Arteta struggled in his initial tenure, anyone who says otherwise and I’d add on by saying anyone who kept 100% faith in him then are either lying or knew something we didn’t at the time.

They are very likely lying, and just because they moved to become pro Arteta slightly ahead of the curve, makes them seem like winners now.

Also I’m not buying the inexperience argument as much anymore, because I just don’t think you can learn that quickly and elevate to Pep levels in a space of months, or as some suggest “by pivoting overnight”. There has to have been a level of competence from the get go. To be able to recruit and build a team of non-stars the way that Arteta has.

The only reason I think Arteta survived all this time, with the investment level, is because he was seen as close to elite from the beginning. When we couldn’t see it.

I agree fully with most of this except the bolded part. The vitriol against Arteta and various Arteta supporting posters here on A-M was just totally over the top (Just like e.g. my own vitriol against Xhaka turned out to have been incorrect and absolutely over the top). I think by phrasing it like you do you give many of those from that rabid mob a convenient out. That no one was really Arteta supporting and everyone was in the same camp and we can now move on. I personally think we can, but let us not rewrite history in that way.

PS. And do not ask me to name names. One I am sure the guilty parties know who they are and two I sure as hell don't want to trawl through old A-M posts. I leave that to others to do.

 

[jones]

Yeh this was when I was vexed about Saliba. I was very against Ramsdale at the time if I remember correctly.

Lol show that post but disregard the countless debates I had with you lot about Arteta.

As I said you're just tryna move the goalposts to save face. You were heavily heavily Arteta out.

Just hold the L like a man.

What kinda L is having wanted Arteta Out when he was stinking the place up? Only way that attitude makes sense if you think this course was the only right one including signing Willian, extending Luiz playing ESR at false 9 vs Villarreal, literally injuring Partey, sending Holding out on amphetamines vs Sp**s, the team playing like insecure toddlers at St James last season etc

You believe all of that sure I'll firm my L. For others it's possible to admit they didn't think it possible for Arteta to turn it around like this without rewriting history so there's some nice "misunderstood genius" ring to his development up until last summer.

 

[say yes]

Nah, mate. Real talk time, you can't deny people are trying hard to rewrite how bad it got under him.

Three times he couldve been sacked and no one would've complained.

It literally made you think you weren't a man child like the rest of us, no one out grows AM.

Not even your bootcut, soprano loving head.

No rewriting on my part Chief.

Results were terrible in his first full season here and it's a results industry so he could justifiably have been sacked. However, I hoped he wouldn't be because I could see (and agreed with) what he was trying to do.

You know as well as anyone how much grief that position got me. But I was right, and my posts defending Mikel (all still available) are aging better than Jennifer Lopez.

 

[SA Gunner]

I agree fully with most of this except the bolded part. The vitriol against Arteta and various Arteta supporting posters here on A-M was just totally over the top (Just like e.g. my own vitriol against Xhaka turned out to have been incorrect and absolutely over the top). I think by phrasing it like you do you give many of those from that rabid mob a convenient out. That no one was really Arteta supporting and everyone was in the same camp and we can now move on. I personally think we can, but let us not rewrite history in that way.

PS. And do not ask me to name names. One I am sure the guilty parties know who they are and two I sure as hell don't want to trawl through old A-M posts. I leave that to others to do.

No I agree with you, there was a lot of vitriol aimed at pro Arteta posters in the earlier days. I myself used to attack them with rage.

Many of the worst attackers are gone today, probably too ashamed to show their faces here again and admit they were wrong. Others, like myself, have accepted being wrong and hopefully moved on.

My comment was more towards the pro Arteta group from the beginning. I seriously question people who claim to have backed Mikel from the beginning, through the worst of times. The only one I can genuinely remember like that is al-ustaad. He never gave up.

 

[db10_therza]

What kinda L is having wanted Arteta Out when he was stinking the place up? Only way that attitude makes sense if you think this course was the only right one including signing Willian, extending Luiz playing ESR at false 9 vs Villarreal, literally injuring Partey, sending Holding out on amphetamines vs Sp**s, the team playing like insecure toddlers at St James last season etc

You believe all of that sure I'll firm my L. For others it's possible to admit they didn't think it possible for Arteta to turn it around like this without rewriting history so there's some nice "misunderstood genius" ring to his development up until last summer.

I don’t care much for the need to revisit old views thing. It’s fun for banter but the idea that we can’t be wrong and readjust views based on new information is just not a serious one.

Anyway, does it need to be either or with the master plan theory vs the Arteta was just a bit **** at first theory? Surely it’s just a bit of both. We can see clear evidence of a “process” in terms of culture and attitudes at the club. Even in terms of the style of play, it’s pretty obvious to me the long term plan was always to end up playing a bit like city. And unsurprisingly for a rookie, he also made plenty of mistakes (that he’s learned from).

 

[Macho]

Also I’m not buying the inexperience argument as much anymore, because I just don’t think you can learn that quickly and elevate to Pep levels in a space of months, or as some suggest “by pivoting overnight”. There has to have been a level of competence from the get go. To be able to recruit and build a team of non-stars the way that Arteta has.

The only reason I think Arteta survived all this time, with the investment level, is because he was seen as close to elite from the beginning. When we couldn’t see it.

He’s Pep/elite levels for you. For me I’m not quite there yet. Too many factors I have listed numerous times for me to say that.

Plus it’s always skewed in his favour anyways, Arsenal win the league he will get all the credit.

If Arsenal don’t, well, people were already angling to get at Edu, gave up on the title when Jesus got injured etc. I don’t buy into him to that extent.

 

[db10_therza]

No I agree with you, there was a lot of vitriol aimed at pro Arteta posters in the earlier days. I myself used to attack them with rage.

Many of the worst attackers are gone today, probably too ashamed to show their faces here again and admit they were wrong. Others, like myself, have accepted being wrong and hopefully moved on.

My comment was more towards the pro Arteta group from the beginning. I seriously question people who claim to have backed Mikel from the beginning, through the worst of times. The only one I can genuinely remember like that is al-ustaad. He never gave up.

Wtf you were Arteta out? What?

 

[El Duderino]

No rewriting on my part Chief.

Results were terrible in his first full season here and it's a results industry so he could justifiably have been sacked. However, I hoped he wouldn't be because I could see (and agreed with) what he was trying to do.

Wasn't meat to single you out, but as you can see *points towards this threads general direction and need to exist* many think he did no wrong or there weren't any teething issues.

 

[Red London]

sending Holding out on amphetamines vs Sp**s

What kinda L is having wanted Arteta Out when he was stinking the place up? Only way that attitude makes sense if you think this course was the only right one including signing Willian, extending Luiz playing ESR at false 9 vs Villarreal, literally injuring Partey, sending Holding out on amphetamines vs Sp**s, the team playing like insecure toddlers at St James last season etc

You believe all of that sure I'll firm my L. For others it's possible to admit they didn't think it possible for Arteta to turn it around like this without rewriting history so there's some nice "misunderstood genius" ring to his development up until last summer.

This is the thing though you are pointing out the weaknesses or mistakes he made, but not looking at the other side of the coin. This was my main point at the time.

Unlike Emery's last few months here, Arteta didn't lose the dressing room at any point. The players were buying into him even despite all of the shortcomings and for me that was enough to give him time. We had seen United constantly change managers every 18 months and constantly buy them new players and try to rebuild the side and we saw how much it held them back. If you keep chopping and changing without direction its going to cause so much damage to the club from top to bottom.

For me this was always a culture thing. I was always told it doesn't exist on here by certain posters like I was speaking some sort of blasphemy. But this is what ended up being the factor in why we are where we are right now. The club had been doing things the same way for 20+ years and after such a long time, there needs to be some sort of change which is an investment of time. Its like we had lost our drive and hunger as a club, lets be honest here.

Difficult decisions had to be made, things that people didnt like to see (like binning Özil, Auba etc) when we weren't even playing well.

The difference IMO were people were looking too much into the now rather than the potential long term gain. You can't change a club's mentality and approach over night and without problems.

 

[db10_therza]

For me this was always a culture thing. I was always told it doesn't exist on here by certain posters. But this is what ended up being the factor in why we are where we are right now.

 

[Makingtrax]

Yeh this was when I was vexed about Saliba. I was very against Ramsdale at the time if I remember correctly.

Lol show that post but disregard the countless debates I had with you lot about Arteta.

As I said you're just tryna move the goalposts to save face. You were heavily heavily Arteta out.

Just hold the L like a man.

Nobody, but nobody knew that the turn around would be so rapid or that some of our acquisitions would turn out to be so good. That post of yours perfectly highlights that.

You guys continually patting yourselves on the back is just wasted bandwidth.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

My comment was more towards the pro Arteta group from the beginning. I seriously question people who claim to have backed Mikel from the beginning, through the worst of times. The only one I can genuinely remember like that is al-ustaad. He never gave up.

I think the point you raise is fair. It of course is hard not to have felt doubt and to have wavered in the really dark days. I am sure even the board, Edu and even Arteta himself felt doubt in some of the really dark days, but just buckled down knowing they were doing what had to be done. With hindsight the only thing that could have gotten him fired would probably have been a prolonged stay in the relegation.

When my own big wobble came I am sure I was influenced by the sheer amount of hate against him on A-M. And declaring as Arteta out gave positive response from the forum. I think this is just human nature and psychology. It is well known that groups over time tend to take ever more radical positions as the group dynamics favour same speak and being more radical int he groups direction gives one status in that group. Here on A-M it was being Arteta Out.

 

[Red London]

Many of the worst attackers are gone today, probably too ashamed to show their faces here again and admit they were wrong. Others, like myself, have accepted being wrong and hopefully moved on.

Some have dissapeared, some have fessed up, while some are tryna move the goalposts

The only one I can genuinely remember like that is al-ustaad. He never gave up.

The thing about him though was that he protected literally every thing Arteta did with anger and passion. You can generally believe in the manager and want him to stay while still questioning some of his decisions but this guy was a beast when it came to protecting him, he wasnt having any slander in the slightest

 

[drippin]

I seriously question people who claim to have backed Mikel from the beginning, through the worst of times. The only one I can genuinely remember like that is al-ustaad. He never gave up.

You can go through my posts, but I claim to have done it. You as a mod can also likely see if I have deleted evidence, which I don't do.

 

[jones]

I don’t care much for the need to revisit old views thing. It’s fun for banter but the idea that we can’t be wrong and readjust views based on new information is just not a serious one.

Anyway, does it need to be either or with the master plan theory vs the Arteta was just a bit **** at first theory? Surely it’s just a bit of both. We can see clear evidence of a “process” in terms of culture and attitudes at the club. Even in terms of the style of play, it’s pretty obvious to me the long term plan was always to end up playing a bit like city. And unsurprisingly for a rookie, he also made plenty of mistakes (that he’s learned from).

Of course it can be both. The idea where the disagreement comes from is that all decisions that hurt us in the past were inevitable for us to arrive at the success we're seeing now. I don't buy for a second that getting where we are now wasn't possible while being less pigheaded with certain players and playing better football with those not-ideal players at his disposal between 20 and 22.

As a sidenote I don't see too many similarities between us and City, not sure where that comes from. I'm not even sure which City people are talking about, the 2019 team and the one that won the league last year are very different already.