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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

Iceman10

Established Member
I'm very confused. I was trying to indicate that the squad has been good enough for top four during the last Wenger years and after. I'm saying all these managers underachieved, Wenger included.

I could go into detail with loads of effort, analytically going into the squads of enough clubs to displace us from Top 4, when we have finished above them that is our overachievement and their underachievement, but don’t take this to heart, I don’t want to put the effort into something I think the vast majority of Arsenal fans agree with me on (Top 6 vs. Top 4), especially after we lost Alexis. The burden I think lies more with the person taking on the prevailing opinion at the time.

I do note though you saying Arsène Wenger underachieved at the end, even though of course @Makingtrax would take objection, but at least there is consistency. I would say Arsène Wenger underachieved in his final season, although not much, I would say around 68-70 points would have been par for the course back then, the increased competition from the new TV deals not fully kicked in at that point, and I would just say in general Arsène was a bit broken from all the aggro in general.
 

blaze_of_glory

Moderator
Moderator

Country: Canada
I could go into detail with loads of effort, analytically going into the squads of enough clubs to displace us from Top 4, when we have finished above them that is our overachievement and their underachievement, but don’t take this to heart, I don’t want to put the effort into something I think the vast majority of Arsenal fans agree with me on (Top 6 vs. Top 4), especially after we lost Alexis.

I do note though you saying Arsène Wenger underachieved at the end, even though of course @Makingtrax would take objection, but at least there is consistency. I would say Arsène Wenger underachieved in his final season, although not much, I would say around 68-70 would have been par for the course back then, the increased competition from the new TV deals not fully kicked in at that point, and I would just say in general Arsène was a bit broken from all the aggro in general.
Sorry, read my edit.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
Sorry, read my edit.

Last season for example what did we have with CB’s with Holding back from injury and Koscielny leaving at the last moment? Was that really capable of fighting a fight for Top 4 with our competition?

Maybe it is because I am really locked in on getting the spine right, and committing to that improvement almost before everything else that I am so pi**ed in general at this club and not focusing on the spine for 5+ years.

I know this will always end up with you pulling Özil into this overall (squad analysis), and that is just irreconcilable between the two of us, but no, Xhaka has supposed to be a key part of the spine since he arrived, and I do not believe that is an integral piece for Top 4 fulfilled in my opinion, another argument where I know I reside with around 85% of Arsenal fans overall.

Edit: It is not just the spine, but that is the starting point. Nowadays I am starting to look at full backs more also as these are pivotal in the PL. Tierney has been in and out with injuries, showing his quality overall, but for some key moments in the past Arsenal were playing with Kolasinac almost as chief creative force from the left flank. In hindsight that is ridiculous, but just shows how far we had sunk.
 
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blaze_of_glory

Moderator
Moderator

Country: Canada
Last season for example what did we have with CB’s with Holding back from injury and Koscielny leaving at the last moment? Was that really capable of fighting a fight for Top 4 with our competition?

Maybe it is because I am really locked in on getting the spine right, and committing to that improvement almost before everything else that I am so pi**ed in general at this club and not focusing on the spine for 5+ years.

I know this will always end up with you pulling Özil into this overall (squad analysis), and that is just irreconcilable between the two of us, but no, Xhaka has supposed to be a key part of the spine since he arrived, and I do not believe that is an integral piece for Top 4 fulfilled in my opinion, another argument where I know I reside with around 85% of Arsenal fans overall.

Edit: It is not just the spine, but that is the starting point. Nowadays I am starting to look at full backs more also as these are pivotal in the PL. Tierney has been in and out with injuries, showing his quality overall, but for some key moments in the past Arsenal were playing with Kolasinac almost as chief creative force from the left flank. In hindsight that is ridiculous, but just shows how far we had sunk.
The CB situation last year is a fair point, though I still think we underperformed significantly by coming 8th and should never have been in the position we were in the first half of this season after that was resolved. I also agree that Tierney has made a big difference vs Kola.

I promise you I was not going to bring up Özil :lol: Though (hehe) I do feel obligated now to point out that our worst 18 months coincided with him being least involved, and things didn't not turn around until his role in the team was filled (ESR/Ødegaard). My advocacy for Özil was, yes, for him but also the need for a central creator. It was only a few months ago people (not saying you) were quick to tell everyone that a no. 10 was dead in the "modern game" but now suddenly that's no longer the case (we must now be in postmodern game). But I digress, not the issue we were discussing.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
The CB situation last year is a fair point, though I still think we underperformed significantly by coming 8th and should never have been in the position we were in the first half of this season after that was resolved. I also agree that Tierney has made a big difference vs Kola.

I promise you I was not going to bring up Özil :lol: Though (hehe) I do feel obligated now to point out that our worst 18 months coincided with him being least involved, and things didn't not turn around until his role in the team was filled (ESR/Ødegaard). My advocacy for Özil was, yes, for him but also the need for a central creator. It was only a few months ago people (not saying you) were quick to tell everyone that a no. 10 was dead in the "modern game" but now suddenly that's no longer the case (we must now be in postmodern game). But I digress, not the issue we were discussing.

Regarding first paragraph, that goes back to Top 4 vs. Top 6, accepting 8th was underperformance, maybe masked in some fans’ minds last summer because of the cup win.

For Özil, maybe some of my prior viewpoints supporting Emery and Arteta sidelining him are explained by my focus on spine and overall solidity, a bit Pep-, and dare I say Mourinho-, like with every player having to contribute to certain basics (somewhat similar to Mourinho harshly criticising Eden Hazard at times), although I have said Özil was also poorly served for much of his time at this club because we should have got the defensive part of midfield right to support him but never did, at least when I consider he was in his prime, not later on where almost all parts of his game seemed (in my view) to have dropped off from his prime.
 

blaze_of_glory

Moderator
Moderator

Country: Canada
Regarding first paragraph, that goes back to Top 4 vs. Top 6, accepting 8th was underperformance, maybe masked in some fans’ minds last summer because of the cup win.

For Özil, maybe some of my prior viewpoints supporting Emery and Arteta sidelining him are explained by my focus on spine and overall solidity, a bit Pep-, and dare I say Mourinho-, like with every player having to contribute to certain basics (somewhat similar to Mourinho harshly criticising Eden Hazard at times), although I have said Özil was also poorly served for much of his time at this club because we should have got the defensive part of midfield right to support him but never did, at least when I consider he was in his prime, not later on where almost all parts of his game seemed (in my view) to have dropped off from his prime.
I mean, it's pretty clear now Özil has given up. Just phoning it in massively in Turkey last time I checked. I still think it was stupid not to play him when we were so clearly struggling with what he provides (at least when playing well). I think his past two years at Arsenal ended him as a player and how much is down to him vs management is an open debate. But my view is he would have helped us if played more, as he would have improved (this is similar to what people say now about Pepe I think).

I guess I'm just more optimistic with top 4 vs top 6. Or I'm not sure there's much between them. I guess I think we should have been top 6 and at at least in the fight for top 4. I'm not anti-Arteta, I'm quite ambivalent on him (potential but everything still to prove) but I do think there have been some odd excuses made this season for how far we’ve been from where we should be up until recently.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
I mean, it's pretty clear now Özil has given up. Just phoning it in massively in Turkey last time I checked. I still think it was stupid not to play him when we were so clearly struggling with what he provides (at least when playing well). I think his past two years at Arsenal ended him as a player and how much is down to him vs management is an open debate. But my view is he would have helped us if played more, as he would have improved (this is similar to what people say now about Pepe I think).

I guess I'm just more optimistic with top 4 vs top 6. Or I'm not sure there's much between them. I guess I think we should have been top 6 and at at least in the fight for top 4. I'm not anti-Arteta, I'm quite ambivalent on him (potential but everything still to prove) but I do think there have been some odd excuses made this season for how far from where we should be up until recently.

I’m not anti- or pro- Arteta either. I actually get annoyed by some of the innuendo in here that if you are not taking the hard anti-Arteta line you must be on the other “side”.

Just because I brought up this Top 6 vs. Top 4 stuff obviously some piled in with their dislikes on my comments even though I actually know they are on record with similar comments as mine about the squad in the past. That is just getting to absurdity as I see it. You just happened to be caught in the middle. You didn’t put dislikes on my comments, they did, and I think I see since I have highlighted that one or two lurkers have since removed their dislikes. Again, it is not that they are hurting me with their dislikes. I am only emboldened because they are proving something I have felt about certain things being irrational in this thread at times, driven by a handful of posters at most, and a couple of Artera ultras on the other side also. My main annoyance is when these seven or so commenters crowd out sensible discussions. I like it here when others start coming in here now and again just to observe, but noticeably many of them are just staying away now.

I am results based by design to try to cut out loosey-goosey subjective stuff and moving goalposts, although I have said treatment of Wenger (and Emery) by certain fans has made me naturally protective of any manager against what I see as a pitchfork mentality that is counterproductive. Some of those going hardest at Arteta are on record saying they have some regrets regarding just how far their rage went with Wenger and Emery, and yet for some unfathomable reason at times they seem to forget these prior comments. What then happens with the next manager if it comes to it? Down the line stating regrets over Arteta as they go after the next one?

Qualification for EL at minimum is important for me, have said this all along, while saying me giving him a fail grade at the end of the season doesn’t mean the board will fire him, obviously. A few days back I went hard against an Arteta ultra because I felt they crossed a line in beating down certain players to make excuses for Arteta. A couple of weeks back I was going hard on Arteta for team selections and squad utilisation ( see exchanges with @Finesse ) but since then I have eased up a little mainly because of results (Leicester and NLD), although that doesn’t guarantee anything if we lose against WHU and things start heading south again.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
@say yes

If we win our next 2 games, Arteta will be above the Champions :shivering:
I was reading it's the biggest ever points decline from the previous years Champions in top flight history. Over 30 points down on where they were last year. Even Leicester didn't stoop to that level of drop off. Yet still we're below them.

The spin on your posts are making me dizzy. :lol:
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
Interesting article in the Athletic this morning on Arteta's spat with Auba. Perhaps explains why he was so sh!t, missing that absolute sitter in the next game.

"You could hear it from pitchside. As Mikel Arteta and Jose Mourinho conducted their post-match interviews, the sound of a Ferrari engine echoed around the Emirates Stadium arena. It was 6.46pm, just 23 minutes after the full-time whistle had blown to confirm Arsenal’s victory. Last one in, but first one out, Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang was leaving.

In front of the cameras, Arteta presented the issue as resolved. “We draw a line there,” he said. “Now let’s move on again. We know how important Auba is for us, for the club. That’s it. That’s been dealt with so let’s move on.” It’s unclear at this stage if Arteta was aware Aubameyang had skipped the warm-down, or whether the player was granted permission to leave. Asked if Aubameyang had accepted his punishment, Arteta simply said: “I hope he did, yeah.”

Outside the Emirates, Aubameyang did not stop to engage with the huddle of supporters that had come to salute this derby win, speeding away into the night. One imagines he was in no mood to celebrate. Aubameyang is an ebullient personality. He loves to be revel in victories, to be in the thick of the revelry. Above all, he loves playing and scoring goals. Being absent for a landmark victory such as this will have stung. Arteta will hope this is a case of a painful lesson learned."
 

14Henry

Looking for receipts 👀
A fully fit Partey/ESR, Ødegaard for the full season and not always starting Willian.

IF we had these things from the start of the season, we would have gotten Top Four imo (only 1 of these being on Mikel) if he doesn't get Champions League by the end of next season, then questions can be asked.

Would say I back my boy to get us back in the Champions League next season, when he has HIS team...but I am backing him to get us in this season, Europa all the way :thumbsup:
We have been extremely lucky with injuries. You believe with those 3 in perfect condition we would be close to top 4.

Where would we be if we had had are usual or even a normal amount of injuries? 15th?
 

Riou

In The Winchester, Waiting For This To Blow Over

Country: Northern Ireland

Player:Gabriel
We have been extremely lucky with injuries. You believe with those 3 in perfect condition we would be close to top 4.

Where would we be if we had had are usual or even a normal amount of injuries? 15th?

Yes to the first paragraph.

Maybe, to the second...for example, if all the injuries just happened to Willian, then we would be fine.
 

14Henry

Looking for receipts 👀
Yes to the first paragraph.

Maybe, to the second...for example, if all the injuries just happened to Willian, then we would be fine.
That I agree with. But after all its on Mikel for picking him.

Imagine we had maybe Tierney, Xhaka (pains me to say it) and say maybe Saka out for 4-6 weeks each. We would be making Newcastle look good.
 

CaseUteinberger

Established Member

Country: Sweden
I'm not anti-Arteta, I'm quite ambivalent on him (potential but everything still to prove) but I do think there have been some odd excuses made this season for how far we’ve been from where we should be up until recently.

I’m not anti- or pro- Arteta either. I actually get annoyed by some of the innuendo in here that if you are not taking the hard anti-Arteta line you must be on the other “side”.
I think being ambivalent about Arteta as a fan is totally reasonable. We really don’t have great insight into how he acts and behaves day in and day out. All we can see is more or less what is being served up on game day. And after such a short period and under such strange circumstances how are we to judge? I see good progress in our overall play. First defensively and lately better offensive play. We have started to offload deadwood. On the other hand we are 10th in the table. We might not win anything, end up say 8th and this would then objectively be our worst season in decades! I guess being on the fence about Arteta is very reasonable.
 

kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
now that arteta has shook off the Pep bullshit from his mind, jettisoned the dreaded U shaped pass map, and gone back to the Arsenal way.. things will improve. Our ceiling will remain kroenke, but hopefully the last few years have taught them to trust the manager and keep their hands off.

all in all, this is now perhaps the best we could hope for after wenger. An old boy as manager, a hale end crop showing the way and a tricky winger like Pepe bedded in.

the striker, dm and gk positions have had money spent and we now just need that one person to run our game from midfield. Ode, Emile or Saka can be that or we buy ..


whoever insisted on Auba purchase was a wise man. He has acted as insurance for the past 3 seasons.. preventing us from free fall... His bonus goals helped paper over the cracks and rough patches and finally we do seem to arriving at calmer waters.
 

OnlyOne

‘Donkeys don’t have a peak, they remain useless’
Trusted ⭐

Country: England
I honestly must be missing something, you got all players hyping Mikel up saying he's some absolute genius, all managers and pundits saying give him time he's an incredible manager etc and yet we're sat in 10th, haven't looked good in Europa albeit should be making a final and we nearly got relegated.

Maybe it's the improvements in the big games idk.
 

Tree Points

Another annoying Manc
Everyone here knows I don’t rate Arteta at all. But I firmly believe Midtable Mikel will pull off a ‘2017 Man Utd Mourinho move’ and win the Europa this season. We were awful that season yet still won the Channel 5 cup.

And ultimately that will be a good season because it will mean you’ll be playing Champions League football next season. And it will also secure Mikel a 10 year contract extension (hopefully!) ;)
 

Tir Na Nog

Changes Opinion Every 5 Minutes

Country: Ireland
I honestly must be missing something, you got all players hyping Mikel up saying he's some absolute genius, all managers and pundits saying give him time he's an incredible manager etc and yet we're sat in 10th, haven't looked good in Europa albeit should be making a final and we nearly got relegated.

Maybe it's the improvements in the big games idk.

Perhaps for someone like Tierney it's just the instructions and insights he's been given by Arteta in a tactical sense as opposed to other managers he's worked with, tho Tierney has almost exclusively worked with bums so the bar isn't particularly high in that regard.

Tbf I don't think it takes much to impress footballers and I think genius is definitely going too far. As is saying we nearly got relegated because of a run of poor form. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
 

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