Mikel Arteta: Bourne Of Frustration

[outlawz]

This. Needs. To. Stop.

This is a tactic that is being employed right across Europe. From Bayern and PSG to City and even Tottnumb. We aren’t doing anything strange or unique here.

The only reason it feels strange is because people aren’t paying attention to the wider footballing world and follow Arsenal in a vacuum. Mikel isn’t pulling this **** out of his arse. He is a part of a wider trend that is being seen across Europe.

This is just the next in line to a string of previous tactics that fans took a millennia to wrap their heads around - why are our wingers tracking back - why is our goalkeeper passing the ball out like that - why is our striker dropping deep - why are our centre backs passing the ball between themselves - why is the left back inverting like that and the list goes on.

Football managers introduce new tactics like this in response to defensive systems which are continuously evolving to shut teams down. The good managers evolve and adapt with the changes in the game. The bad ones don’t and get left behind and that ironically is the biggest criticisms levied at late stage managers like Mourinho or Wenger before him. As much as I rate Arteta - he’s not an innovator - his best trait is that he looks at the best managers and he’s really good at copying them.

 

[El Realista]

what a manager!! Best speech in history!

 

[El Realista]

This is a tactic that is being employed right across Europe. From Bayern and PSG to City and even Tottnumb. We aren’t doing anything strange or unique here.

The only reason it feels strange is because people aren’t paying attention to the wider footballing world and follow Arsenal in a vacuum. Mikel isn’t pulling this **** out of his arse. He is a part of a wider trend that is being seen across Europe.

This is just the next in line to a string of previous tactics that fans took a millennia to wrap their heads around - why are our wingers tracking back - why is our goalkeeper passing the ball out like that - why is our striker dropping deep - why are our centre backs passing the ball between themselves - why is the left back inverting like that and the list goes on.

Football managers introduce new tactics like this in response to defensive systems which are continuously evolving to shut teams down. The good managers evolve and adapt with the changes in the game. The bad ones don’t and get left behind and that ironically is the biggest criticisms levied at late stage managers like Mourinho or Wenger before him. As much as I rate Arteta - he’s not an innovator - his best trait is that he looks at the best managers and he’s really good at copying them.

If Europe teams throw themselves from a cliff then we should? Btw look at what players are doing that thing for those teams. Timber is a CB converted to RB, while Hakimi is closer to RW than RB. Can you see the difference? We are doing what other teams do using offensive FBs while we do it with 4 CBs at the back.

 

[2Smokeyy]

This is a tactic that is being employed right across Europe. From Bayern and PSG to City and even Tottnumb. We aren’t doing anything strange or unique here.

The only reason it feels strange is because people aren’t paying attention to the wider footballing world and follow Arsenal in a vacuum. Mikel isn’t pulling this **** out of his arse. He is a part of a wider trend that is being seen across Europe.

This is just the next in line to a string of previous tactics that fans took a millennia to wrap their heads around - why are our wingers tracking back - why is our goalkeeper passing the ball out like that - why is our striker dropping deep - why are our centre backs passing the ball between themselves - why is the left back inverting like that and the list goes on.

Football managers introduce new tactics like this in response to defensive systems which are continuously evolving to shut teams down. The good managers evolve and adapt with the changes in the game. The bad ones don’t and get left behind and that ironically is the biggest criticisms levied at late stage managers like Mourinho or Wenger before him. As much as I rate Arteta - he’s not an innovator - his best trait is that he looks at the best managers and he’s really good at copying them.

I think you’re way off the point with this and seems a bit conflated not sure what @Gooner Zig was referring to, so he can respond but from what I gathered from his previous posts, he isn’t against the idea but more so the profile itself whereas you’re mentioning the tactics and trend in football. I’m sure he wouldn’t have mentioned it if we had a fully fit Ben White (who is better in an attacking sense) to rotate or even players who are natural to the position in Hakimi, Nuno Mendes, DiMarco, Grimaldo etc. I’ve looked over the stats and effectiveness in the final third comparing profiles and we’d be getting more change from someone more comfortable picking up those positions. Obviously in some instances you’d lose out with defensive stability which Timber and Hincapie offer but surely the best course of action would have been to get a different profile to rotate with our current options based on the opponent we’re facing and leave them guessing with a sense of unpredictability.

 

[jones]

Hasn’t that been the case for most “champions elect”? Teams start getting wiser as the season goes on and that’s where the players who got you to that position most of the time have to step up or fresh ideas need to be implemented.

Not sure if Leverkusen done anything different to how they’ve been playing in the Bundesliga though, @jones probably knows.

They've been a bit of a shambles domestically but haven't played any different style or anything like that.

Why are people acting like it's only Arsenal that teams prepare for? We rightly take the piss out of Slot for complaining about facing new formations then AM turns around and immediately says "it's hard to do anything with teams shelling up". Every single top flight team prepares differently for every single top flight team they face, it doesn't matter if it's Madrid facing Getafe or Burnley facing us every team knows the strengths and weaknesses and prepares footage, specific drills etc.

Literally the manager's job to find ways to find ways around that setup, instead people are getting offended on Arteta's behalf that other teams are trying to give themselves the best shot at winning lol.

 

[Aubamabludclat94]

I have a couple of points on Arteta and why his team has been trending downwards offensively this season:

- He values the wrong things in forwards
- He's replaced / backed up some of his most fluid ballers poorly ("poorly" applies only offensively. Players like Zinchenko, prime Jesus, Ødegaard, Partey, etc have a certain fluidity that they exude onto the rest of the team that is currently missing).
- The decision makers at the club clearly had a plan to lift the floor of the team rather than the ceiling. Given the amount of football we've played and injuries we've already battled, I think it was the right call.
- He hasn't succesfully updated his tactics with the arrival of new players. I remember at the beginning of the season, we were trying to play at a faster pace than the previous season, probably to try to maximize Gyokeres impact. However, that's been abandoned at this point and it seems as though he expects the team to play the same with Eze and Gyokeres as with Ødegaard and Kai.
- He's misprofiling certain players in an attempt to keep up with the tactics in vogue in Europe. A lot of square pegs in round holes currently. This is imo his biggest tactical failure this season and the easiest one to correct, just needs a bit of an ego check here imo.
- He's really leaned into the defensive quality of the team. I think at this point we can safely say as currently built, this Arsenal team's identity is personified by our defensive spine. I believe Arteta has identified Raya + Gabi + Saliba + Rice as our most important players and believes we have a better chance of winning games 1-0 than 4-2. Given that its the business end of the season, he simply has to win by hook or by crook.

I've said this time and time again, but I don't think we play better football unless we try to keep as many of our main players home for the international friendlies and try to bring Kai and Ødegaard up to full fitness as quickly as possible. The international friendlies could be our Dubai trip if we play things right. Get a much needed rest and work on chemistry and fluidity.

 

[dka1]

This is a tactic that is being employed right across Europe. From Bayern and PSG to City and even Tottnumb. We aren’t doing anything strange or unique here.

The only reason it feels strange is because people aren’t paying attention to the wider footballing world and follow Arsenal in a vacuum. Mikel isn’t pulling this **** out of his arse. He is a part of a wider trend that is being seen across Europe.

This is just the next in line to a string of previous tactics that fans took a millennia to wrap their heads around - why are our wingers tracking back - why is our goalkeeper passing the ball out like that - why is our striker dropping deep - why are our centre backs passing the ball between themselves - why is the left back inverting like that and the list goes on.

Football managers introduce new tactics like this in response to defensive systems which are continuously evolving to shut teams down. The good managers evolve and adapt with the changes in the game. The bad ones don’t and get left behind and that ironically is the biggest criticisms levied at late stage managers like Mourinho or Wenger before him. As much as I rate Arteta - he’s not an innovator - his best trait is that he looks at the best managers and he’s really good at copying them.

From this video and the previous one you linked, I actually get it now with what we're doing wrt Timber.

That said I think @2Smokeyy makes a good point in that even if we're rotating Timber high up the pitch as a way to overcome the opposition's man marking, he's still not the profile of player you want in that position.

It's all well and good if the strategy pays off, but if the player's end product isn't amazing then is it worth it?

 

[A_G]

That’s the right, bend the knee you little *****

 

[pure profit FC]

That’s the right, bend the knee you little *****

his grandad.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

When you look at Arteta's general philosophy it's based around control.

Defensive solidity and attacking prowess aren't seperate things. They're heavily linked and on a sliding scale and Arteta's natural inclination is to prioritise the defensive structure. He is fairly conservative by nature.

I think where this becomes more apparent is where our main individual attacking threats are off form or not firing. We're not getting much quality from Saka at the moment. Trossard and Martinelli aren't in good moments and Gyok Is fairly limited.

Leverkusen was a poor performance and we were fairly lucky to get away with a draw, and there have been a number of other games we haven't excelled this season. And there are some tactical reasons to criticise Arteta there.

But let's also not judge everything by our worst moments, we've scored quite a few goals this season, we're in nice positions in every competition. Things aren't awful.

My question would be, is Arteta's style of play successful in gaining results?

I think the answer is generally yes based on where we are this season. That doesn't mean the football is scintillating or gets you out of your seat. They're too different things. A style of football can be successful and somewhat boring to watch. They're not mutually exclusive.

We've won 35 games this season, drawn 9 and lost 3. That's an excellent record, the best in the 5 big European Leagues Sides.

Things aren't as bad as gets made out on here after the odd poor performance/ result. It gets very hyperbolic and reactionary.

 

[GDeep™]

When you look at Arteta's general philosophy it's based around control.

Defensive solidity and attacking prowess aren't seperate things. They're heavily linked and on a sliding scale and Arteta's natural inclination is to prioritise the defensive structure. He is fairly conservative by nature.

I think where this becomes more apparent is where our main individual attacking threats are off form or not firing. We're not getting much quality from Saka at the moment. Trossard and Martinelli aren't in good moments and Gyok Is fairly limited.

Leverkusen was a poor performance and we were fairly lucky to get away with a draw, and there have been a number of other games we haven't excelled this season. And there are some tactical reasons to criticise Arteta there.

But let's also not judge everything by our worst moments, we've scored quite a few goals this season, we're in nice positions in every competition. Things aren't awful.

My question would be, is Arteta's style of play successful in gaining results?

I think the answer is generally yes based on where we are this season. That doesn't mean the football is scintillating or gets you out of your seat. They're too different things. A style of football can be successful and somewhat boring to watch. They're not mutually exclusive.

We've won 35 games this season, drawn 9 and lost 3. That's an excellent record, the best in the 5 big European Leagues Sides.

Things aren't as bad as gets made out on here after the odd poor performance/ result. It gets very hyperbolic and reactionary.

Nobody is reading all of this. Not from you.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

Nobody is reading all of this. Not from you.

I'm one of the few sensible posters on this site, you pleb.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

What football really thinks of Arsenal’s football

We spoke to two club executives, a senior recruitment figure, an academy coach, a player, and a scout to get their views on Arteta's side.

www.nytimes.com

Interesting stuff here. Excerpts from Reddit:

An analyst at a Premier League club had a sinking feeling. He had seen his team fall behind against Arsenal and, in the 15 minutes that followed, any potential route back into the game seemed to close.

“You analyse them beforehand and you look for weaknesses,” the analyst says. “You might see one player is more susceptible to being pressed in the build-up. You might feel you can restrict them if you can force them to play more down their left than their right, or if you can find certain spaces when you’re counter-attacking.

“At 0-0 you feel you’ve got a chance of frustrating them. But once you fall behind, different story. The gaps you thought were there are no longer there. With the Manchester City and Liverpool teams of recent years, their approach didn’t change massively from 0-0 to 1-0 to 2-0. But with this Arsenal team, everything becomes even more compact. It’s incredibly hard if you fall behind against them.”

An executive at another club offers a similar view. “They’re like a python,” he says. “They squeeze the life out of you. It’s strangulating. They play this very constricting, incredibly effective brand of football. The third-best defence in this league is Everton and they have conceded 50 per cent more goals (33) than Arsenal have (22). Arsenal are ruthlessly efficient and they capitalise on set pieces.”

If any of that sounds grudging, the executive insists it is not. “When I talk to people around our club or in the one degree away, there’s tremendous respect for Arsenal’s capability.”

The analyst shares that admiration. “Their set plays are elite,” he says. “Three things: 1) their analysis in pinpointing their strengths, the opposition’s weaknesses and how to exploit them, 2) the deliveries from (Bukayo) Saka and (Declan) Rice, 3) the number of aerial threats they have, their movement and the way Gabriel in particular attacks the ball.

“Until recently there was almost a 50/50 split across the league between inswinging and outswinging corners. You had teams like Liverpool scoring a lot from outswingers. Arsenal were an outlier in focusing so much on inswingers. But you look now and everyone is following what Arsenal do. I said earlier that you don’t mind them attacking down their left. But at the same time, you’re terrified of conceding corners down that side, with Rice whipping them in.”

The analyst says his own team have tried to replicate elements of Arsenal’s approach: not only the way they crowd the six-yard area and deliver their corners but also small details like “how slowly and deliberately their defenders walk up from the halfway line”, which is designed to build tension among their opponents.

“I love what they do,” the analyst says. “Analysts and data people love that side of the game — analysis, attention to detail, repetition, seeing pre-rehearsed routines work in a match situation. Whether coaches enjoy it so much, it probably depends who you ask.”

...

“If you look at the squad Arteta inherited (in 2019) and the squad they have now, the difference is night and day,” the recruitment figure says. “They have evolved over that period and everything they have done — whether it’s player recruitment or the work they do on set pieces — has a real clarity to it. All of it has been driven by Arteta. You have to say he has done an exceptional job.”

...

An academy coach at a Premier League club suggests the football we are seeing in this season’s top flight — more physical, more attritional, more geared towards set pieces and choreographed routines, with a sharp drop in the number of goals scored from open play — is a concern and that Arsenal have become “poster boys” for this approach.

“It took English football years to get away from this mentality of wanting big, strong, powerful players — and to realise we needed to produce technical players who could do the same things the German, Spanish and French players were doing,” the coach says.

“I look at the technical players our academies have produced over the last 10 years and it’s been such a positive for English football. When I see the way Arsenal play, which obviously is very effective, I worry it will take us back towards this ultra-physical style we were trying to get away from.

“It also disappoints me that (Myles) Lewis-Skelly and (Ethan) Nwaneri, two of the best young players in the country, have barely had a kick in the Premier League this season. Nwaneri has ended up going on loan (to Marseille). I get that Arteta’s priority is to win trophies, but are you saying Lewis-Skelly and Nwaneri couldn’t contribute to that?

“I don’t want a situation where a brilliant academy is producing brilliant players and they can’t get a game in the Premier League. Again, that’s something I hoped we had moved away from.”

The academy coach echoes Hurzeler’s distaste for the delays that inevitably come with a heightened emphasis on set pieces. “It’s not just Arsenal — others are just as bad — but the time they take over every corner and every free kick bothers me as a coach,” he says.

“And the time-wasting. I watched their game at Brighton last week and it was as if they were only really happy when the ball was off the pitch. A lot of people won’t care, but it’s very different to the Manchester City team who have set the standard for the past 10 years.”

A scout at a leading Premier League club is similarly unimpressed. He too draws unflattering comparisons between recent title-winning teams at Manchester City (“a joy to watch, intricacy, fluidity”) and Liverpool (“chaotic, exciting, very much on the front foot”) and this Arsenal side (“efficient, pragmatic, nothing we haven’t seen before”). “But it’s working for them,” he adds.

...

A Premier League player says he has “no issue” with any of it. It is frustrating when opponents run the clock down, he says. “But when you get to the closing stages and you’re 1-0 up, of course you’re going to do everything to try to break up the game and make it stop-start. Arsenal are good at it, but everyone does it. You would be naive not to do it.”

The player in question feels Manchester City might have a higher level “on their day” but that Arsenal are a much stronger and more consistent team. He adds that Rice’s qualities are hard to appreciate fully unless you have played against him and that the England midfielder, along with Gabriel, will be prominent in his thoughts for the Professional Footballers’ Association Player of the Year ballot.

...

It appears instructive that none of those The Athletic spoke to for this article paid the slightest heed to the narrative peddled by rival fans and certain pundits — as well as Rodri — that Arsenal are beset by an ingrained mental fragility.

On the contrary, what shines through is an admiration — generous in some quarters, a little more grudging in others — for their resilience, their set-piece prowess and for the other qualities that have carried Arteta and his team this far.

An executive at another club proposes that Arsenal would be the most fitting champions for a Premier League season which he feels has been defined by dead-ball situations and the failures of the PGMOL and match officials to police them properly.

“Arsenal clearly have a lot of strengths, but one of them is that they have worked out, better than everyone else, what you can get away with in this league and how far you can push it,” he says. “And part of me thinks, ‘You know what? Fair play to them’.”

 

[GDeep™]

Why does anybody care what people think of Arsenal outside the club and its fanbase? Again it’s a modern football disease to be constantly obsessed about what is written and said about you when you’re winning.

 

[rich1990]

his grandad.
View attachment 44536

Leave me out of it

 

[outlawz]

I think you’re way off the point with this and seems a bit conflated not sure what @Gooner Zig was referring to, so he can respond but from what I gathered from his previous posts, he isn’t against the idea but more so the profile itself whereas you’re mentioning the tactics and trend in football. I’m sure he wouldn’t have mentioned it if we had a fully fit Ben White (who is better in an attacking sense) to rotate or even players who are natural to the position in Hakimi, Nuno Mendes, DiMarco, Grimaldo etc. I’ve looked over the stats and effectiveness in the final third comparing profiles and we’d be getting more change from someone more comfortable picking up those positions. Obviously in some instances you’d lose out with defensive stability which Timber and Hincapie offer but surely the best course of action would have been to get a different profile to rotate with our current options based on the opponent we’re facing and leave them guessing with a sense of unpredictability.

Timber has really only started occupying the positions this season, so it's obviously a learning curve for him. I prefer White in any case and I suspect we will sign a right back in the summer who is a more naturally suited to the role.

 

[outlawz]

From this video and the previous one you linked, I actually get it now with what we're doing wrt Timber.

That said I think @2Smokeyy makes a good point in that even if we're rotating Timber high up the pitch as a way to overcome the opposition's man marking, he's still not the profile of player you want in that position.

It's all well and good if the strategy pays off, but if the player's end product isn't amazing then is it worth it?

Timber is still learning the role, he's not a natural fit but there's no reason that he can't improve.

 

[Mitch]

 

[Aubamabludclat94]

When you look at Arteta's general philosophy it's based around control.

Defensive solidity and attacking prowess aren't seperate things. They're heavily linked and on a sliding scale and Arteta's natural inclination is to prioritise the defensive structure. He is fairly conservative by nature.

I think where this becomes more apparent is where our main individual attacking threats are off form or not firing. We're not getting much quality from Saka at the moment. Trossard and Martinelli aren't in good moments and Gyok Is fairly limited.

Leverkusen was a poor performance and we were fairly lucky to get away with a draw, and there have been a number of other games we haven't excelled this season. And there are some tactical reasons to criticise Arteta there.

But let's also not judge everything by our worst moments, we've scored quite a few goals this season, we're in nice positions in every competition. Things aren't awful.

My question would be, is Arteta's style of play successful in gaining results?

I think the answer is generally yes based on where we are this season. That doesn't mean the football is scintillating or gets you out of your seat. They're too different things. A style of football can be successful and somewhat boring to watch. They're not mutually exclusive.

We've won 35 games this season, drawn 9 and lost 3. That's an excellent record, the best in the 5 big European Leagues Sides.

Things aren't as bad as gets made out on here after the odd poor performance/ result. It gets very hyperbolic and reactionary.

I'm firmly of the opinion its more important, and harder, to coach a defensively stout and disciplined team than a free-flowing attack. Defense requires sacrifice, rigidity, mental fortitude, a ton of discipline. A fluid, efficient offense is like improvisational jazz. It's more about spontaneity, virtuosity, self-expression, improv, chemistry, etc. Those are things I firmly believe are more down to player qualities/profiles than coaching. I don't think we have too many forwards I would describe with the above language, especially fit and on-form ones. You could literally see it last game (and many games before that) whenever Eze tried to play a cute one-two with Gyokeres or Martinelli or Zubi, they were just not on his wavelength in that regard.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

I'm firmly of the opinion its more important, and harder, to coach a defensively stout and disciplined team than a free-flowing attack. Defense requires sacrifice, rigidity, mental fortitude, a ton of discipline. A fluid, efficient offense is like improvisational jazz. It's more about spontaneity, virtuosity, self-expression, improv, chemistry, etc. Those are things I firmly believe are more down to player qualities/profiles than coaching. I don't think we have too many forwards I would describe with the above language, especially fit and on-form ones. You could literally see it last game (and many games before that) whenever Eze tried to play a cute one-two with Gyokeres or Martinelli or Zubi, they were just not on his wavelength in that regard.

Yeah, I've seen Pep say before that is his job as manager to get the team to the final third, the attackers job is to finish it from there.

But then you could argue our recruitment / form hasn't helped in that respect. Most of our long term forwards have some question marks over them quality wise and our newer offensive signings haven't exactly set the world alight.