Mikel Arteta: Mid-table Mikel

[Rimaal]

Idk, it took 3 or 4 seasons post-Rafa for Liverpool to be considered mid-table.

And that was the mighty Liverpool with all their history. Cut that in half, and you will have our measure.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

Jesus, WTF are you then.? No wonder I don't agree with anything you say. I really would like to, honestly.

Well it depends how literally you take it.

If you finish 10th are you technically a mid table club? Yes.

There's a big difference between a bigger club like Arsenal underperforming league position wise for a season or two, and Crystal Palace or Newcastle for example. They're what I'd consider genuine mid table clubs.

 

[Iceman10]

Depends on how you define it.

You can finish midtable for a season or two and not 'really' be a midtable club. Not everything's dependant on where you finished last season.

I think of us more as a big club in a transition period really.

How do we continue transition though when our spending is at least matched by Everton, Villa, Leicester, and more, and when some of these clubs in the meantime are more likely to get CL football than us, increasing their spending power more? That’s the question, and it can’t be taken for granted.

 

[kash2]

I'm not saying there were no good big game performances under later years Wenger, there were a handful of standouts.

So far Arteta has been better in big games overall, that's all I'm saying.

yeah man...but to question him on tactics? i mean, he put that to rest in the FA cup that year, even for the most blind critic.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

We finished mid-table last year and are currently mid-table and our board is content with it. If that isn't a mid-table club I don't know what is.

 

[Macho]

No one is saying we should spend like United, but I think we are underrating our financial ability. We have crippled ourselves with our wage bill, if we fix this (which I am not convinced we will tbf, if we are signing people like Willian) then we will free up much more funds.

Arteta can sign who he likes but we saw what happened when Partey got injured.

Instead of having the bravery to try/develop a Willock or AMN which previous managers have done - he will lean on the same old Elneny's and Bellerin's. Games get lost and Arteta escapes blame again, because we can just blame Bellerin and Elneny - bun players with no upside that have racked up the minutes this season.

Signings won't help this guy, the second they aren't able to play it's dropped points. He lacks the bravery and creativity to find solutions nor does he utilise his squad properly. People have been screaming for ESR since August (there's proof).

If Kronke asks these guys how Saliba, Pepe, Partey are getting on when Arteta and Edu ask for more money at the end of their powerpoint presentations for squad additions this summer and we see no signings, I wouldn't be shocked.

 

[squallman]

Idk, it took 3 or 4 seasons post-Rafa for Liverpool to be considered mid-table.

Remember when Liverpool were retconned into being title contenders from 2002- Rafa's last season when they only mounted a title challenge once in all that time?

Or that period where they only won a League Cup in a decade but no one mentioned anything about a trophy drought, ever?

Different set of rules for them.

 

[Finesse]

In this part of your comment you start by saying AaMN has been poor all season. He was hardly played after having a great end of season last season being one of our best players. What happened? What has been the role of the manager? You bring up Martinelli, Pepe, and others not playing well enough to take away over-reliance on Saka and ESR but this all also goes on several players rather than questioning sone responsibility of the manager to get more out of them.

If you are detaching manager responsibility from players being poor as you see it then you are basically saying these players are deadwood also because management can’t extract anything good enough from them. That can’t be right can it? We can’t afford as a club to make even these players deadwood. I see this is where you are headed when you talk about transfers without regard to understanding how our transfer budget will be hit if we don’t qualify for EL. Being out of even that tourney, not even CL, costs us 40m.



Reference to “doom and gloom” is a red herring. Conditionality of a manager getting another season based on a minimum requirement is not “doom and gloom”. It is dispassionate by design, just as there was conditionality on Arsène Wenger to get back into the CL in his final season which he failed to do and all was closed off when we were knocked out in the EL.

All that is going on here is resistance to moving goalposts *if* Arteta fails to qualify for EL for next season. Not only would a finish of around 10th place be unacceptable if it happens but Arteta also seems to be someone who needs big transfer budgets and if he’s going to end up with a reduced transfer budget after falling out of EL then we would need a different manager with a different philosophy to achieve something similar to Brendan Rodgers. Arteta does not have experience at lower budget clubs where you have to be more flexible and creative to get the most out of what you have to work with rather than marginalising so many players.

I think Saka and ESR have been on the same training sessions and tactical training drills like Pepe , AMN etc .. It is not like AMN and Pepe for example have been kept out of the team. These guys have played so many games this season on all competitions. What is their result? This team has picked it self based on delivery. Saka and ESR are getting better and better...does the manager not get credit for that? Other players have spoken about how he transformed their game. I watched Leroy Sane talk about it on an interview. It is his responsibility to help the players improve and perform however you have quoted Pepe who has been same under 3 managers.

Again I am not an Arteta in our out brigade....I am constructive. Rogers is a manager I like and will love him here. However I can see what Arteta is doing. He is not going to get sacked this season for sure. I could start dissecting and looking for every reason to project he is not good enough based on our aspirations of course. To what effect? However it is by no means absolving him from his mistakes. Is he improving the team ? Yes IMO. Even though it needs some consistency to reflect on the League table. I would not be crying foul if he goes at the end of the season. However another Manager would have to do a lot of work on this team on his own terms and we may go through similar agony. Simply because we are not a cheque book club and considering the economic downturn , I don't foresee money flying around for ready players.

 

[El Duderino]

We have to judge Arteta on the basis of what was given.

When he arrived, our team was in shambles. We had no culture. No structure. No spine. We had a dysfunctional group of below par, overpaid senior players.

He made a mistake of forcing his sophisticated style on players who couldn't deliver.

He has, since then, simplified it. And is building on it.

I think he has cleaned up. We have structure and spine. And Hope.

Our build up is getting much better. We are dominating most games.

You can see that he is a perfectionist. All our players know what they need to do in every given situation.

We are unlucky not to be playing for CL.

We need to give him another season to build on what he is doing. He is a young coach clearly better than Unai Emery.

He's not a better manager than Unai, Manberg.

Unai is just not a good fit at bigger clubs outside of Spain. Emery is actualyl a competent manager, as shown by his various EL trophies, etc.

 

[El Duderino]

We finished mid-table last year and are currently mid-table and our board is content with it. If that isn't a mid-table club I don't know what is.

It's not just the table position, it's how we're being run. We wanted to renew Unai and want to renew Arteta.

 

[Arsenal1508]

Arteta can not teach attacking football. His positives are he has us playing good defense. However, he cant teach attacking football and relies too much on individual brilliance instead of team football to score goals.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

We finished mid-table last year and are currently mid-table and our board is content with it. If that isn't a mid-table club I don't know what is.

Bet they are just holding out for this Super League where money will be more or less divorced from results.

 

[American_Gooner]

And that was the mighty Liverpool with all their history. Cut that in half, and you will have our measure.

Liverpool back then were in a much worse state than Arsenal currently are. They won one trophy between the FA Cup in 2006 and the CL in 2019, but as @squallman says no one cared.

 

[Iceman10]

I think Saka and ESR have been on the same training sessions and tactical training drills like Pepe , AMN etc .. It is not like AMN and Pepe for example have been kept out of the team. These guys have played so many games this season on all competitions. What is their result? This team has picked it self based on delivery. Saka and ESR are getting better and better...does the manager not get credit for that? Other players have spoken about how he transformed their game. I watched Leroy Sane talk about it on an interview. It is his responsibility to help the players improve and perform however you have quoted Pepe who has been same under 3 managers.

Again I am not an Arteta in our out brigade....I am constructive. Rogers is a manager I like and will love him here. However I can see what Arteta is doing. He is not going to get sacked this season for sure. I could start dissecting and looking for every reason to project he is not good enough based on our aspirations of course. To what effect? However it is by no means absolving him from his mistakes. Is he improving the team ? Yes IMO. Even though it needs some consistency to reflect on the League table. I would not be crying foul if he goes at the end of the season. However another Manager would have to do a lot of work on this team on his own terms and we may go through similar agony. Simply because we are not a cheque book club and considering the economic downturn , I don't foresee money flying around for ready players.

Regarding your bit in this comment: “Again I am not an Arteta in our out brigade....I am constructive”, it is important to note I am not Arteta Out or Arteta In at this point, only making it all contingent on qualification for EL as a minimum requirement. If we get EL/CL football I will be happy for Arteta to continue on his path. That makes me different from some in this thread. If we don’t get EL/CL football and have reduced resources as a result I will want a change for reasons outlined. There really is no difference for myself and Arteta with falling out of the EL as there was with Arsène Wenger and failing to get back into CL. I gave Arsène one season good grace because of all the credit he built up prior. Beyond that we just needed a change for sake of everyone.

I might seem sour right now but that’s only because Arteta is as few as two bad results away from this season being a write-off. If we beat Benfica things will ease but there’s still a long way to go to win the EL. I just personally set goalposts for Arteta months back and will stick with them. They make even more sense to me now based on Arteta with big transfer budgets made possible with EL/CL qualification vs. Arteta with limited resources where he has to be more flexible and creative with what he has to work with.

 

[Rex Banter]

Bet they are just holding out for this Super League where money will be more or less divorced from results.

It’s mental that we’ll be getting in ahead of Leicester when you consider the progress they’ve made over the last decade

 

[Iceman10]

Liverpool back then were in a much worse state than Arsenal currently are. They won one trophy between the FA Cup in 2006 and the CL in 2019, but as @squallman says no one cared.

Much easier to build back up based on club name and gate receipts, etc. back then though, and Liverpool did get a few Top 4’s during that time also. The competition has changed where PL prize money has allowed more teams to spend and be competitive. We can reawaken as sleeping giants but there’s a lot that will have to go wrong elsewhere to help us get back near the top. These owners are far from bad, we’ve spent and wasted a lot, but J don’t see them changing trajectory rapidly from mid-table mediocrity. It falls on a manager to perform and overachieve to start getting out of the hole.

 

[Rex Banter]

Liverpool back then were in a much worse state than Arsenal currently are. They won one trophy between the FA Cup in 2006 and the CL in 2019, but as @squallman says no one cared.

I mean they had won the CL in 2005 and almost won the league in 2009 and 2014.

It got bad under Hodgson but they then got one of the best executives in recent history.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

It’s mental that we’ll be getting in ahead of Leicester when you consider the progress they’ve made over the last decade

The idea is so clearly to create a private little club that can protect owners of big clubs from having their profits infringed on by upstarts like LCFC.

If it ever goes ahead I think that'll be it for me, @GDeep™ style

 

[Riou]

We will just end up getting repeatedly battered in that Super League thing...really hope it doesn't happen, tbh.

 

[American_Gooner]

I mean they had won the CL in 2005 and almost won the league in 2009 and 2014.

It got bad under Hodgson but they then got one of the best executives in recent history.

Outside of the one season where they caught lightning in a bottle with their SAS front line, it was pretty grim for them in terms of league position.

Remember how bad they were in 2014? Sold Suarez and wasted all the money, then did likewise the following summer with Sterling (except for signing Firmino). In spite of all that, Klopp and Ancelotti both wanted the job.