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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

Iceman10

Established Member
three managers havent been able to compete and get top 4 now since Kroenke tightened their death grip on this club.

At some point we need to stop falling for the deflection by the trolls and shills, and lay the blame squarely on the owners and their ****ty deliberate strangling emasculation of the club into a tame poodle.

My opinion on the other hand is focus on owners takes away from accountability for the manager. We haven’t underspent for the last five seasons, but instead have made a lot of mistakes with money spent. The Kroenkes are average owners. They are not owners who would allow 300m spend in one window but I don’t know how that works with FFP anyway. United have big budgets not because of Glazers but commercial deals on the back of their club name. We can focus on Kroenkes or we can focus on the fact we should be Top 6 with what we have.
 

kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
My opinion on the other hand is focus on owners takes away from accountability for the manager. We haven’t underspent for the last five seasons, but instead have made a lot of mistakes with money spent. The Kroenkes are average owners. They are not owners who would allow 300m spend in one window but I don’t know how that works with FFP anyway. United have big budgets not because of Glazers but commercial deals on the back of their club name. We can focus on Kroenkes or we can focus on the fact we should be Top 6 with what we have.

They wanted Emery in because he was pliable. They got the crook Raul in because he was a wheeler dealer. They got Arteta in, a rookie making his debut as a manager and then saddled him with enormous tasks including negotiating wage cuts with players.

They basically turned the whole mentality and values of Arsenal into a Walmart bin mentality.

If you think Arteta has underachieved from where he started, its not fair. He is a rookie.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
They wanted Emery in because he was pliable. They got the crook Raul in because he was a wheeler dealer. They got Arteta in, a rookie making his debut as a manager and then saddled him with enormous tasks including negotiating wage cuts with players.

They basically turned the whole mentality and values of Arsenal into a Walmart bin mentality.

If you think Arteta has underachieved from where he started, its not fair. He is a rookie.

If the criticism of Kroenkes is more to do with their hires, and their hires doing bad jobs, that is fine. I’m not so heavy on attacking them on financials because we’ve spent money made available badly. The Kroenkes really have done little except for allowing the sustainable financial model Arsène Wenger built to carry on. All of that allowed 80-100m summer transfer budgets as reasonable but on condition of revenues from European football.

You finish with a line about expectations for Arteta because he is a rookie. I didn’t know Arteta was getting special allowance for that instead of being treated in line with others in this business.
 

Finesse

Well-Known Member
What I don't get is people who don't see that we don't have a style of play. Bielsa had a style of play at this point, whether it was successful or not is another thing. Klopp had a style within months, even with a midtable squad. Pep had his team play his way within months before the signings as well too.

Ole doesn't have a style. Arteta doesn't have a style. Lampard didn't have a style.

You really do not see. Simply because you have already decided he does not have one. Unless you believe he has a style, you will not see yet alone understand it.

It seems you understand how Pep plays. If you want to understand what Arteta is working on with his team , tune on the City for MGladbach. Pep will deploy a 433 with 1 pivot in Rodri with Gundogan and Foden playing as CAMs. With a front 3 of Raheem , Jesus and Bernardo.

Arteta is playing same with a double pivot is Xhaka and Thomas. For obvious reasons. We do not have the ability to keep the ball effectively as City. So we need to compensate by having 2 pivots to shield the back 4. We have a CAM in now MO and before that it was ESR. As opposed to City having 2 who are at the end of goals this season from midfield.

Now I hope you understand what he is implementing. For this to work possession , use of space , passing and football intelligence is key. @Iceman10 this is why he is using ESR , Saka and MO in the same team. He is frustrated by the fact that Willian or Pepe , 2 senior wing players he counts on are not on the same wavelength in terms of passing , movement , vision to combine as he wants.

It may not be working as fluid as required but he is building some thing. If we accept he has addressed the defence , then we can give him the benefit of doubt he can do same with the attack. This is just simple objectivity and looking at the facts.

He had a 343 formation during our rot. It did not work. I chastised him for that. For now he is doing something. I cannot deny it.

Hence atm what frustrates me is having Pepe back in the team firing. On current form I am afraid he cannot start in a full strength side. Mahrez had the same issues at City. They are players who have a natural instinct to dribble out of situations or eliminate a player or two before deciding if to pass next or combine. Mahrez ironed that out of his game. Watch Mahrez now and you see his first touch is to find space and combine. Dribbling as a decoy is now second nature. Pepe has to change his game too. His natural ability is to pick the ball , run at players and dribble away into clarity before passing. If you can do it like Messi then fine. If he keeps dribbling into a cul de sac , getting dispossessed etc drifting in and out of games , then pops up with the odd moment of brilliance and scores, then it is not good enough for this level. Saka is the 72m player and Pepe looks like the academy boy.
 

bergholt

Well-Known Member

Country: Australia
Now I hope you understand what he is implementing. For this to work possession , use of space , passing and football intelligence is key. @Iceman10 this is why he is using ESR , Saka and MO in the same team. He is frustrated by the fact that Willian or Pepe , 2 senior wing players he counts on are not on the same wavelength in terms of passing , movement , vision to combine as he wants.

Certainly interesting that his first choice mid combination is:

- a 19 year old
- a 20 year old
- a 22 year old on loan

That might be a sign that the players he has to work with at that end of the pitch are a little lacking.
 

kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
If the criticism of Kroenkes is more to do with their hires, and their hires doing bad jobs, that is fine. I’m not so heavy on attacking them on financials because we’ve spent money made available badly. The Kroenkes really have done little except for allowing the sustainable financial model Arsène Wenger built to carry on. All of that allowed 80-100m summer transfer budgets as reasonable but on condition of revenues from European football.

You finish with a line about expectations for Arteta because he is a rookie. I didn’t know Arteta was getting special allowance for that instead of being treated in line with others in this business.

he is just doing what it said on the tin. they wanted someone who would not demand much and could be controlled.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
Now I hope you understand what he is implementing. For this to work possession , use of space , passing and football intelligence is key. @Iceman10 this is why he is using ESR , Saka and MO in the same team. He is frustrated by the fact that Willian or Pepe , 2 senior wing players he counts on are not on the same wavelength in terms of passing , movement , vision to combine as he wants.

It may not be working as fluid as required but he is building some thing. If we accept he has addressed the defence , then we can give him the benefit of doubt he can do same with the attack. This is just simple objectivity and looking at the facts.

He had a 343 formation during our rot. It did not work. I chastised him for that. For now he is doing something. I cannot deny it.

Hence atm what frustrates me is having Pepe back in the team firing. On current form I am afraid he cannot start in a full strength side. Mahrez had the same issues at City. They are players who have a natural instinct to dribble out of situations or eliminate a player or two before deciding if to pass next or combine. Mahrez ironed that out of his game. Watch Mahrez now and you see his first touch is to find space and combine. Dribbling as a decoy is now second nature. Pepe has to change his game too. His natural ability is to pick the ball , run at players and dribble away into clarity before passing. If you can do it like Messi then fine. If he keeps dribbling into a cul de sac , getting dispossessed etc drifting in and out of games , then pops up with the odd moment of brilliance and scores, then it is not good enough for this level. Saka is the 72m player and Pepe looks like the academy boy.

I agree with all of this but Ødegaard is not our player unless we buy him while Pepe is and would have to be sold at considerable loss. This is the crossroads if we fail to get European football next season. What will our budget be? If it is less than 50m we can barely bring in Ødegaard and not much else. We can only dump and replace Pepe if we have a budget over 100m, and that isn’t happening in any circumstances unless perhaps we get CL football by winning the EL. In the event we are stuck with a low budget as a result of underperformance this season my concern is we would need a manager who can get more out of Pepe, Laca, Martinelli, and others, as well as Reiss, AMN, Willock, Azeez, etc. We’re not there yet, I expect us to beat Benfica, but there are a lot of good teams still to beat to get close to winning it.
 

avenellroad

John Radford’s son
My opinion on the other hand is focus on owners takes away from accountability for the manager. We haven’t underspent for the last five seasons, but instead have made a lot of mistakes with money spent. The Kroenkes are average owners. They are not owners who would allow 300m spend in one window but I don’t know how that works with FFP anyway. United have big budgets not because of Glazers but commercial deals on the back of their club name. We can focus on Kroenkes or we can focus on the fact we should be Top 6 with what we have.

Not to digress too much from the thread title, but it's always surprised me how **** we are in the commercial department, for a global football club. Liverpool were outselling us in shirt sales when they were out of the CL and were crap. United are a commercial juggernaut operating at a different level since the advent of the Premier League, so won't compare us to them.

Saw an article which has us at 11th (behind Chelsea and Sp**s) in the just released Deloitte richest football club table. I can see us sinking down these tables quickly into next season and beyond. Can't see how Kronke and his son will sit on their arses hoping something falls in place, if the value of their asset is rapidly depreciating.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
he is just doing what it said on the tin. they wanted someone who would not demand much and could be controlled.

This is true. I pointed out at the tine this is why we went nowhere near Ancelotti. You make a good point, but I have to admit I am still stuck on the financial model Arsène built instead of wanting a sugar daddy oligarch owner. For some reason I’ve always liked Arsenal doing things differently and doing it the honest way without using cheat mode.
 

GDeep™

League is very weak
I always argued with people on here who said Wenger is holding us back from employing one of Hollywood managers. I used to say the club don’t want to employ those as they are too demanding, I mean to get rid off Wenger and employ a Klopp or Pep you didn’t even have to sack Wenger, all you had to do was just not extend his deal - which is doing nothing and he’s gone.

Since Wenger has gone we’ve not employed a top manager.

This club is a massive failure.
 

kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
This is true. I pointed out at the tine this is why we went nowhere near Ancelotti. You make a good point, but I have to admit I am still stuck on the financial model Arsène built instead of wanting a sugar daddy oligarch owner. For some reason I’ve always liked Arsenal doing things differently and doing it the honest way without using cheat mode.

Me too...but we need the owners to pull their weight, and bring some value to the table.... not just focus on firing the tea lady
 

GDeep™

League is very weak
Also, those noises about the owners not being happy about “CL wages for EL football”. Who is to blame for that? Considering nearly every player in the current squad was signed or extended during the EL era, and nearly every player signed over the last 3 years is NOT a top player.

Maybe the owners should have signed better people to run the club.
 

Mo Britain

Doom Monger
Not to digress too much from the thread title, but it's always surprised me how **** we are in the commercial department, for a global football club. Liverpool were outselling us in shirt sales when they were out of the CL and were crap. United are a commercial juggernaut operating at a different level since the advent of the Premier League, so won't compare us to them.

Saw an article which has us at 11th (behind Chelsea and Sp**s) in the just released Deloitte richest football club table. I can see us sinking down these tables quickly into next season and beyond. Can't see how Kronke and his son will sit on their arses hoping something falls in place, if the value of their asset is rapidly depreciating.
We are 11th in the world based on the value of the stadium because property in London is so expensive. This is what attracted the Kronkes, the ability to use Arsenal as leverage for their US deals.

We were one of the first teams to build a new stadium so we had an advantage then but as other grounds are built we may slip from 11th. End of the day commercial juggernauts don't get you new fans, trophies do. You would have struggled to meet a Man City fan outside Manchester 20 years ago, now a lot of kids support them.
 
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Finesse

Well-Known Member
I agree with all of this but Ødegaard is not our player unless we buy him while Pepe is and would have to be sold at considerable loss. This is the crossroads if we fail to get European football next season. What will our budget be? If it is less than 50m we can barely bring in Ødegaard and not much else. We can only dump and replace Pepe if we have a budget over 100m, and that isn’t happening in any circumstances unless perhaps we get CL football by winning the EL. In the event we are stuck with a low budget as a result of underperformance this season my concern is we would need a manager who can get more out of Pepe, Laca, Martinelli, and others, as well as Reiss, AMN, Willock, Azeez, etc. We’re not there yet, I expect us to beat Benfica, but there are a lot of good teams still to beat to get close to winning it.

What do you suggest he should do in terms of approach? Should we drop MO and get the best out of the bunch you just cited? At this crucial stage is this feasible ? At this very moment should we be focussed on if MO is our player or not or if we can get the best out of it and qualify for Europe with a decent end to this campaign?
 

Iceman10

Established Member
What do you suggest he should do in terms of approach? Should we drop MO and get the best out of the bunch you just cited? At this crucial stage is this feasible ? At this very moment should we be focussed on if MO is our player or not or if we can get the best out of it and qualify for Europe with a decent end to this campaign?

When we have three matches a week I don’t like the over-reliance on ESR and Saka. That’s in part why I liked the Ødegaard addition so much even without the buy clause, but rotation means you are playing two out of three with one of Pepe, Martinelli, or Laca (Auba on wing). I get you saying we are best with all three players on the pitch but we can’t do that for every match with three matches in a week can we?

I do get that you are pointing to best selections now rather than focusing on what Arteta will do in the future. I’m just prepping for arguments on whether to keep or sack Arteta if we fail to get European football and have a reduced budget as a result. Could be harsh, but much of the foundations for where we sit in the PL table has come from manager underperformance. Expecting Top 6 this season was not unrealistic was it?
 

Finesse

Well-Known Member
When we have three matches a week I don’t like the over-reliance on ESR and Saka. That’s in part why I liked the Ødegaard addition so much even without the buy clause, but rotation means you are playing two out of three with one of Pepe, Martinelli, or Laca (Auba on wing). I get you saying we are best with all three players on the pitch but we can’t do that for every match with three matches in a week can we?

I do get that you are pointing to best selections now rather than focusing on what Arteta will do in the future. I’m just prepping for arguments on whether to keep or sack Arteta if we fail to get European football and have a reduced budget as a result. Could be harsh, but much of the foundations for where we sit in the PL table has come from manager underperformance. Expecting Top 6 this season was not unrealistic was it?

We are over reliant on this duo because we play terrible with the rest without them. That’s the brutal reality.

I understand the arguments for or not sacking. All valid. However I am looking at it like getting the best out of my used car , looking after it as much as I can until I save enough for a deposit for the new one. Banging and mismanaging it now when I know I have not saved enough for the new one is counter productive. While he is here I will give him the time , be constructive and objective about what he does. Especially now when I can see what he is doing after a terrible start as a rookie in the very top level and with a team as complex on and off the pitch like Arsenal.
 

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