Mikel Arteta: Mid-table Mikel

On a scale from 1-10 (the most), how much faith do you have in Arteta?

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Macho

Has Trust Issues With Processes
Trusted
Yeah fans would have made the place toxic like under Emery. With lockdown these guys are free to trust the process and hold all these L's in peace and silence.

I think it's fair to let Arteta work as long as the players are behind him, which they blatantly are.
 

Macho

Has Trust Issues With Processes
Trusted
The funniest part about my support of Arteta...one of the first posts I made about him was calling him a "cowardly iPad merchant" who hid behind Pepe, while praising Ljungberg for having the bottle to manage us when we were at our worst just after Emery left.

Life comes at you fast...
Lol agenda pushes you to places you’d never think you’d go.

I actually don’t even hate everything Arteta’s done and I was fully on board last summer, but there you go.
 

Riou

A-M's Resident Jobber
Trusted
Lol agenda pushes you to places you’d never think you’d go.

I actually don’t even hate everything Arteta’s done and I was fully on board last summer, but there you go.

Yeah, too deep in the rabbit hole now...just have to hope some light appears at the end of the tunnel soon :pray:
 
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shoot for the top

Well-Known Member
Lockdown footy is nutty, if it weren’t for refs we’d be close to the top 4 at least. Arteta also not given a proper pre season is big.

People are unhappy with our poor league position which is fair, easy think to do is blame the manager. But I guarantee if we sack him and get someone else nothing will change. It’s clearly not a coaching issue.

You mean like how it used to be for Wenger and he still got 4th?
 

Melquiades

Well-Known Member
Not holding Arteta accountable for the turgid mid table stuff we've seen this year after abusing Arsène for getting continuous top 4 is about as relevant as you can get.

Do you think that maybe it's possible that it's fair to judge a young manager who is coming into a poor squad in a year completely screwed up by COVID by *slightly* different standards than you'd judge a 70 y/o manager with a roster he'd spent 23 years building?

I wanted Wenger to stay. He's one of the greatest managers in the history of the sport. But I don't ****ing care about him any more. It's done. He's gone. There's been a whole other different manager in between since. We can see pretty clearly that that new manager inherited a squad with all kinds of problems from previous administrations. He's also had to deal with the strangest season in sporting history.

This team has had 5 years of rot starting with the 2016 offseason. It should be instantly obvious that a new young manager coming into this team (in an exceptionally difficult year) would have lower standards than Wenger had in 2015-16 with an outstanding squad.

This team could rise Bill Shankly from the grave and if he'd taken over mid 19-20 he wouldn't have this team in a CL position right now. You've basically created yourself a position where literally any/every manager that could be in place with this team would be a failure with the standards you've set.

This roster is not good enough for a top-4 finish. We're maybe the 5th biggest club in England right now and when you're the 5th biggest club who has spent terribly for the last 5 years, you aren't going to somehow get better than the 5th-best results. The fact that Wenger worked miracles for this team several years ago doesn't mean that the current manager - whose situation has literally nothing to do with Arsène Wenger - is a failure and needs to be replaced if he isn't working even greater miracles to match Wenger's results.

I'm not sure if Arteta is the long-term manager here. But I've seen enough things to give me hope that he could be and I think booting him out of here before he's even had a normal season to work with is idiotic, and that the grass isn't going to be somehow greener without him.
 

shoot for the top

Well-Known Member
Do you think that maybe it's possible that it's fair to judge a young manager who is coming into a poor squad in a year completely screwed up by COVID by *slightly* different standards than you'd judge a 70 y/o manager with a roster he'd spent 23 years building?

I wanted Wenger to stay. He's one of the greatest managers in the history of the sport. But I don't ****ing care about him any more. It's done. He's gone. There's been a whole other different manager in between since. We can see pretty clearly that that new manager inherited a squad with all kinds of problems from previous administrations. He's also had to deal with the strangest season in sporting history.

This team has had 5 years of rot starting with the 2016 offseason. It should be instantly obvious that a new young manager coming into this team (in an exceptionally difficult year) would have lower standards than Wenger had in 2015-16 with an outstanding squad.

This team could rise Bill Shankly from the grave and if he'd taken over mid 19-20 he wouldn't have this team in a CL position right now. You've basically created yourself a position where literally any/every manager that could be in place with this team would be a failure with the standards you've set.

This roster is not good enough for a top-4 finish. We're maybe the 5th biggest club in England right now and when you're the 5th biggest club who has spent terribly for the last 5 years, you aren't going to somehow get better than the 5th-best results. The fact that Wenger worked miracles for this team several years ago doesn't mean that the current manager - whose situation has literally nothing to do with Arsène Wenger - is a failure and needs to be replaced if he isn't working even greater miracles to match Wenger's results.

I'm not sure if Arteta is the long-term manager here. But I've seen enough things to give me hope that he could be and I think booting him out of here before he's even had a normal season to work with is idiotic, and that the grass isn't going to be somehow greener without him.

At the moment Arteta is failing, and that is the truth. You can't hide from it no matter how many excuses you have for him. Not fighting for 6th should be considered a failure with this team. Also, look at what Tuchel is doing with Chelsea. Not sure how he will do in a few months' time but, he is showing what Lampard lacked. I'm not even slating Lampard, he was great for Derby. What has Arteta done? Assistant manager?
 

Kav

Well-Known Member
Do you think that maybe it's possible that it's fair to judge a young manager who is coming into a poor squad in a year completely screwed up by COVID by *slightly* different standards than you'd judge a 70 y/o manager with a roster he'd spent 23 years building?

I wanted Wenger to stay. He's one of the greatest managers in the history of the sport. But I don't ****ing care about him any more. It's done. He's gone. There's been a whole other different manager in between since. We can see pretty clearly that that new manager inherited a squad with all kinds of problems from previous administrations. He's also had to deal with the strangest season in sporting history.

This team has had 5 years of rot starting with the 2016 offseason. It should be instantly obvious that a new young manager coming into this team (in an exceptionally difficult year) would have lower standards than Wenger had in 2015-16 with an outstanding squad.

This team could rise Bill Shankly from the grave and if he'd taken over mid 19-20 he wouldn't have this team in a CL position right now. You've basically created yourself a position where literally any/every manager that could be in place with this team would be a failure with the standards you've set.

This roster is not good enough for a top-4 finish. We're maybe the 5th biggest club in England right now and when you're the 5th biggest club who has spent terribly for the last 5 years, you aren't going to somehow get better than the 5th-best results. The fact that Wenger worked miracles for this team several years ago doesn't mean that the current manager - whose situation has literally nothing to do with Arsène Wenger - is a failure and needs to be replaced if he isn't working even greater miracles to match Wenger's results.

I'm not sure if Arteta is the long-term manager here. But I've seen enough things to give me hope that he could be and I think booting him out of here before he's even had a normal season to work with is idiotic, and that the grass isn't going to be somehow greener without him.

Arteta’s fans go to great lengths to protect their man. Even denigrating their own players to deflect criticism. All to support a manager with a mediocre record and who has us playing the worst football in 25 years.

You know how many managers would bite your hand off to get that kind of armor? Clap yourselves.
 

Melquiades

Well-Known Member
At the moment Arteta is failing, and that is the truth. You can't hide from it no matter how many excuses you have for him. Not fighting for 6th should be considered a failure with this team. Also, look at what Tuchel is doing with Chelsea. Not sure how he will do in a few months' time but, he is showing what Lampard lacked. I'm not even slating Lampard, he was great for Derby. What has Arteta done? Assistant manager?

We had a terrible run of play in November-December. At that point I was close to Arteta out. But since Christmas we've been a top-5 team in the league. We're 3rd in the league defensively.

The team has actually played well for the last two months. We're doing good things. Young players are playing well. It hasn't been perfect but when you look at the improvements and how we're currently playing, I don't get the negativity.

As for Chelsea :

1) Chelsea's squad is pretty clearly substantially stronger than ours right now. They spent like 250 million last summer. They have attacking weapons coming out of their ears.

2) Chelsea smartly fired Lampard right on the eve of a soft part of their schedule. So far, they've faced :

Wolves - D (12th in table and terrible form)
Burnley - W (15th in table)
Sp**s - W (9th in table and terrible form)
Sheffield U - W (20th in table)
Newcastle - W (17th in table)
Southampton - D (14th in table and terrible form)

No kidding they've 'magically improved' against those teams. They could have hired Steve Bruce and they would have ripped through those games.

Guess what? We have a really soft last 8 games of the season and Arteta will go on a big run in those games, too. If I had to bet, we'll be sitting 11th-12th after 30 games and then go on a sweet run to finish 8th. And 8th with this squad isn't great, but it's a hell of a recovery after where we were sitting at Christmas.
 

GDeep™

Dissociating
Do you think that maybe it's possible that it's fair to judge a young manager who is coming into a poor squad in a year completely screwed up by COVID by *slightly* different standards than you'd judge a 70 y/o manager with a roster he'd spent 23 years building?

I wanted Wenger to stay. He's one of the greatest managers in the history of the sport. But I don't ****ing care about him any more. It's done. He's gone. There's been a whole other different manager in between since. We can see pretty clearly that that new manager inherited a squad with all kinds of problems from previous administrations. He's also had to deal with the strangest season in sporting history.

This team has had 5 years of rot starting with the 2016 offseason. It should be instantly obvious that a new young manager coming into this team (in an exceptionally difficult year) would have lower standards than Wenger had in 2015-16 with an outstanding squad.

This team could rise Bill Shankly from the grave and if he'd taken over mid 19-20 he wouldn't have this team in a CL position right now. You've basically created yourself a position where literally any/every manager that could be in place with this team would be a failure with the standards you've set.

This roster is not good enough for a top-4 finish. We're maybe the 5th biggest club in England right now and when you're the 5th biggest club who has spent terribly for the last 5 years, you aren't going to somehow get better than the 5th-best results. The fact that Wenger worked miracles for this team several years ago doesn't mean that the current manager - whose situation has literally nothing to do with Arsène Wenger - is a failure and needs to be replaced if he isn't working even greater miracles to match Wenger's results.

I'm not sure if Arteta is the long-term manager here. But I've seen enough things to give me hope that he could be and I think booting him out of here before he's even had a normal season to work with is idiotic, and that the grass isn't going to be somehow greener without him.
You talk about a poor squad and rot setting in from 2016 but most of the squad was signed or extended under Arteta - at least 10/11 senior players while the remaining bulk of the guys having arrived here post 2018.

You mention COVID but that’s affected the whole league, and most of the league is in and around it’s expected league position or slight under/over achieving, West Ham aside who are massively surprising with their form and Arsenal aside who have spent the whole season in 10-14th positions and are massively under performing.
 
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GDeep™

Dissociating
Nobody is even asking us to be top 4, the standards are pretty low, I think the fan base would happily accept top 6 and call it a good season.
 

Melquiades

Well-Known Member
Arteta’s fans go to great lengths to protect their man. Even denigrating their own players to deflect criticism. All to support a manager with a mediocre record and who has us playing the worst football in 25 years.

You know how many managers would bite your hand off to get that kind of armor? Clap yourselves.

I am most assuredly not an 'Arteta fan'.

I think there are things to like about him, and things I have significant concerns about. I was close to fully wanting him out in December. Since then, things have significantly improved and the team has a top-5 record in the PL since Christmas - so the recent results are meeting your expectations.

The absolute stupidest thing in modern football is firing your manager every year at the first sign of a slump. Then a new guy comes in with a whole bunch of players he doesn't like/want and tries to put in a new system. Gets one offseason to bring in some new players, then gets fired at the first slump. New guy then inherits a new mess. It's ****ing idiotic. It's why teams can't get out of bad cycles. It's why a team like United is playing better with a crap manager in OGS that they've kept around for a bit than they did with actual good managers they kept quickly recycling.

I like what Arteta has done with this team defensively. I see improvements offensively. I'm willing to give him one normal offseason and a start to a normal season next season to see if he can build on some of the things that have happened this year to get results. If we're in 10th at Christmas - bye. That doesn't make me some sort of blind 'Arteta fan' who is somehow cheering for the manager over the fortunes of the team.

As I've said a few times, I'm 'Arteta neutral' but unless things are totally going into the tank - and they currently aren't - I'll err on the side of keeping the manager rather than running around thinking hiring some new guy is going to magically fix years of endemic rot in the team.
 

Melquiades

Well-Known Member
You talk about a poor squad and rot setting in from 2016 but most of the squad was signed or extended under Arteta - at least 10/11 senior players while the remaining bulk of the guys having arrived here post 2018.

You mention COVID but that’s affected the whole league, and most of the league is in and around it’s expected league position or slight under/over achieving, West Ham aside who are massively surprising with their form and Arsenal aside who have spent the whole season in 10-14th positions and are massively under performing.

COVID created a situation pretty specific to here where you had a pile of expensive veteran players who weren't wanted by the new manager but who we weren't able to sell in the weird summer 2020 transfer market - Mustafi, Sokratis, Kolasinac, Özil. Left us with a bloated squad full of unhappy veterans and I don't think it was terribly conducive to a great environment or a great platform for a fresh start. Whether Arteta helped things with his handling of some of this is another question, obviously.

The team that went in the tank in October-November basically had 2 guys (Gabriel and Willian) who were signed by Arteta and playing regularly. He has managed to shape more of a preferred squad since then.

Whether we should have signed such an inexperienced manager is an open question. But once we've done so and committed to that guy, you don't not follow through on it when he's going through a few growing pains that you had to expect.

Again - I fully understand Arteta out in December. But if we'd fired him on December 25 and the new manager had literally the *exact* results playing the exact players that Arteta has had since Christmas, pretty much everyone dumping on Arteta right now would be celebrating that new manager for turning things around to such an extent.
 

GDeep™

Dissociating
He should be doing better and I think with a bunch of good signings this summer we will surely make strides next season with Arteta. But with Arsenal in all my years of supporting them, we’ve never really backed a manager massively - so I think the bulk of our current starting line up will be the same next season.
 

shoot for the top

Well-Known Member
We had a terrible run of play in November-December. At that point I was close to Arteta out. But since Christmas we've been a top-5 team in the league. We're 3rd in the league defensively.

The team has actually played well for the last two months. We're doing good things. Young players are playing well. It hasn't been perfect but when you look at the improvements and how we're currently playing, I don't get the negativity.

As for Chelsea :

1) Chelsea's squad is pretty clearly substantially stronger than ours right now. They spent like 250 million last summer. They have attacking weapons coming out of their ears.

2) Chelsea smartly fired Lampard right on the eve of a soft part of their schedule. So far, they've faced :

Wolves - D (12th in table and terrible form)
Burnley - W (15th in table)
Sp**s - W (9th in table and terrible form)
Sheffield U - W (20th in table)
Newcastle - W (17th in table)
Southampton - D (14th in table and terrible form)

No kidding they've 'magically improved' against those teams. They could have hired Steve Bruce and they would have ripped through those games.

Guess what? We have a really soft last 8 games of the season and Arteta will go on a big run in those games, too. If I had to bet, we'll be sitting 11th-12th after 30 games and then go on a sweet run to finish 8th. And 8th with this squad isn't great, but it's a hell of a recovery after where we were sitting at Christmas.

All I hear is a whole bunch of excuses. It's always cause of this or that. Please, save it for yourself. Arteta is a NOVICE. He could even become a great manager ONE DAY! Why use Arsenal as a place for experiments. He has proven nothing, he was gifted this position.
 

Oxeki

New Threads, Old Tweets
I am most assuredly not an 'Arteta fan'.

I think there are things to like about him, and things I have significant concerns about. I was close to fully wanting him out in December. Since then, things have significantly improved and the team has a top-5 record in the PL since Christmas - so the recent results are meeting your expectations.

The absolute stupidest thing in modern football is firing your manager every year at the first sign of a slump. Then a new guy comes in with a whole bunch of players he doesn't like/want and tries to put in a new system. Gets one offseason to bring in some new players, then gets fired at the first slump. New guy then inherits a new mess. It's ****ing idiotic. It's why teams can't get out of bad cycles. It's why a team like United is playing better with a crap manager in OGS that they've kept around for a bit than they did with actual good managers they kept quickly recycling.

I like what Arteta has done with this team defensively. I see improvements offensively. I'm willing to give him one normal offseason and a start to a normal season next season to see if he can build on some of the things that have happened this year to get results. If we're in 10th at Christmas - bye. That doesn't make me some sort of blind 'Arteta fan' who is somehow cheering for the manager over the fortunes of the team.

As I've said a few times, I'm 'Arteta neutral' but unless things are totally going into the tank - and they currently aren't - I'll err on the side of keeping the manager rather than running around thinking hiring some new guy is going to magically fix years of endemic rot in the team.
United is doing well under Ole not because Ole is managerial genius but because they've invested massively in the team and for once actually invested well.
There's nothing to suggest Arteta is going to get that same backing from the board.

In terms of getting the most out of what you have, are you saying Arteta is getting the most of this team currently?

The likes of Klopp and Rodgers were able to impart their style of play in their team in far shorter time. I'm not a football expert but I'm struggling to see what we are as a team under Arteta. I don't even know what style we play sometimes.

I genuinely hope he turns it around before the crowd returns otherwise it's going to be extremely toxic.
 

CaseUteinberger

Cazorla (not Cazorla ffs)
I am most assuredly not an 'Arteta fan'.

I think there are things to like about him, and things I have significant concerns about. I was close to fully wanting him out in December. Since then, things have significantly improved and the team has a top-5 record in the PL since Christmas - so the recent results are meeting your expectations.

The absolute stupidest thing in modern football is firing your manager every year at the first sign of a slump. Then a new guy comes in with a whole bunch of players he doesn't like/want and tries to put in a new system. Gets one offseason to bring in some new players, then gets fired at the first slump. New guy then inherits a new mess. It's ****ing idiotic. It's why teams can't get out of bad cycles. It's why a team like United is playing better with a crap manager in OGS that they've kept around for a bit than they did with actual good managers they kept quickly recycling.

I like what Arteta has done with this team defensively. I see improvements offensively. I'm willing to give him one normal offseason and a start to a normal season next season to see if he can build on some of the things that have happened this year to get results. If we're in 10th at Christmas - bye. That doesn't make me some sort of blind 'Arteta fan' who is somehow cheering for the manager over the fortunes of the team.

As I've said a few times, I'm 'Arteta neutral' but unless things are totally going into the tank - and they currently aren't - I'll err on the side of keeping the manager rather than running around thinking hiring some new guy is going to magically fix years of endemic rot in the team.
What the flaming ****? A measured and well reasoned post about Arteta on AM? Mate, you are in wrong forum! Here only black or white exists. You are either a godlike manager or absolute bottom of the barrel ****! Learn to reason like a 5th grader or **** the hell out of here! ;)
 

Melquiades

Well-Known Member
He should be doing better and I think with a bunch of good signings this summer we will surely make strides next season with Arteta. But with Arsenal in all my years of supporting them, we’ve never really backed a manager massively - so I think the bulk of our current starting line up will be the same next season.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I wouldn't expect some sort of spending spree. If we can get a solid upgrade at RB and another quality CM that would be pretty decent.

Not having a proper 10 through the first 15 games killed us. Arteta obviously learned from that and presumably won't be making that mistake again. And again - hire a young manager, he's going to make some mistakes. Hiring a young manager knowing he'll make mistakes and then firing him because of those entirely predictable mistakes is the definition of insanity.

It has to be said how fine the margins are this year. If you flip that Wolves result in a game we were dominating before the bizarre red card, we're in 8th and only 3 points behind Liverpool/Everton.
 

Melquiades

Well-Known Member
What the flaming ****? A measured and well reasoned post about Arteta on AM? Mate, you are in wrong forum! Here only black or white exists. You are either a godlike manager or absolute bottom of the barrel ****! Learn to reason like a 5th grader or **** the hell out of here! ;)

It's so weird to me. Again, if we had fired Arteta at Christmas and the new manager had :

a) turned the team around by inserting ESR at 10.
b) stuck Willian on the bench for the last two months.
c) had the 5th best record in the PL since Christmas.
d) had seen our offensive results jump from 18th pre-Christmas to 5th post-Christmas.
e) had the 3rd best defensive record in the PL.

... that new manager would be getting celebrated like a god here right now. But when a young manager learns from some mistakes and makes those exact improvements, it seems like everyone refuses to adjust to the new information and just keeps screaming ARTETA OUT because we sucked 4 months ago and look at the standings. And obviously when you have a bad stretch of play early in a season it's going to impact your position in the standings for that whole year, so lets keep bring that up over and over again.

Let's say we finish 8th-9th this year but at the end of the season have the 5th best record over the final 25 games of the season. Is it really logical to defend dropping a manager who had excellent results that met expectations in the most recent large sample size because the team had a bad slump in November? Can anyone actually defend that? The whole thing makes no sense to me.
 

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