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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

Iceman10

Established Member
Mate we signed Thomas for a £45m one time payment (in line with what would be paid up front on the most expensive of £100-200m transfer fees), Gabriel for £30m, and Willian on a good wage (still curious what that actually is-- would love for someone to show me a link with the actual figures, I remember it was reported by good sources to be something like 100k/w) without any significant sales minus Emi, on an already bloated wage bill, in the middle of a pandemic, without CL, going into our 4th consecutive season in Europa.

To expect anything more financially would be pretty utopic. I am quite impressed with the money given to Arteta and the backing he received.

Now, the execution is another matter. I would've spent that money quite differently, and would've been far more aggressive with sales (AMN, Holding, the main ones who were getting some interest and could've returned decent capital). As I said all summer, as fantastic a footballer as Thomas is, a more realistic and viable approach would've probably been to go for someone like Danilo along with Buendía or Aouar. Then again if were more aggressive with sales we might've been able to afford both Thomas and Aouar (or Buendía, a cheaper and not necessarily much worse option, whose lack of interest in still baffles me).

Either way, it's the use of resources where our summer came apart, as I said over and over again we simply COULD NOT go into the season without acquiring a link in the 10 space, and we didn't (something Arteta publicly recognised we were lacking last summer at the end of the season, and which gave me hope that he very much understood the issues of the team..not that he didn't, I think his planning with Edu was just poor--between perhaps failing to recognise proper targets like Buendía or James, not being aggressive enough with sales--keeping AMN was a really poor decision with Wolves' interest--and perhaps thinking he could get by with Willian and Saka and a more tactical, counter-attacking approach until ESR was fit or we acquired the guy they had earmarked in Aouar). Perhaps we thought Willian was that, but that was miscalculation, then. And we had no shortage of resources to achieve that, whether it was by being more aggressive with sales, going for one of the cheaper options at 10 (James, Brahim), or prioritising the bigger position of need and going for a cheaper option at CM (Danilo), or some combination of these strategies.

Here, of course, Edu has to receive some flak too.

This is why we are held back at Arsenal.

70m or whatever standard net spend was always likely to see us in jeopardy for even Top 6, not even Top 4, with a lot to fix with the squad, based on competition with Leicester, Everton, Villa, among others.

Remember your comment if the Kroenke's follow through with "investment" this summer to appease fans. They could have done that last summer, with a proactive loan arrangement like Liverpool. They didn't do that because they were not pressed by Arteta, and apparently some conflicted fans who happily take whatever the Kroenke's support without ambitiously pushing for more. This is why practically every summer we have people in A-M saying the transfer window has been 8/10 when it hasn't been.
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
Also people on here happy to accept Pep, Klopp etc didn't know anything about the situation.

Arteta must have known though, because he's such a bad guy and manager. Proper agenda merchanting.
Fwiw, I believed him when he said he didn’t know. I’m sure he heard something but not enough to say uninformed opinions to the media.

Media savviness is one of Arteta’s strengths and it’s been on display once again.

All I can say is atleast the anger is pointed towards the correct place - Kroenke.
 

Blood on the Tracks

AG's best friend, role model and mentor.
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Rice
Fwiw, I believed him when he said he didn’t know. I’m sure he heard something but not enough to say uninformed opinions to the media.

Media savviness is one of Arteta’s strengths and it’s been on display once again.

All I can say is atleast the anger is pointed towards the correct place - Kroenke.

I believe all the managers involved in England to be honest.

As you say, I'm sure they probably all heard bits and bobs through the grapevine but I severely doubt any of them had the full picture of what was going on.

Kind of puts into perspective how far the managers and general football people are divorced from the owners etc at times too.

Can't be a comfortable thing for Klopp, Guardiola etc to have to field questions on the issue when they have to walk a pretty fine political tightrope while also attempting to get across their own personal opinions in a fairly vague manner.
 

Riou

In The Winchester, Waiting For This To Blow Over

Country: Northern Ireland

Player:Gabriel
We will never know if the managers really knew what was happening...where they in the dark or are they just good actors, did they know about it but still hate it...we will never know.

Arteta isn't gonna crap on the owners completely...if the Super League did happen, with Arsenal in it, it would have made us 1 of only 12 proper teams in Europe...so from our own point of view, the intentions were "good", so I can see why Mikel said that...but it would have just ruined everyone else in football :lol:

We have 2 massive games coming up in the Europa soon, lets forget the ESL and focus on that.
 

CaseUteinberger

Established Member

Country: Sweden
Have the club generate revenue without him lifting a finger? and not having to worry about his investment getting relegated due to team performance? a team he doesn't want to invest in?

Yeah that's exactly what I think KSE wanted out of this - what else did you think he was hoping to get out of this?
You think he wants to see Arsenal plummet because of a rookie manager he got on the cheap?
You think he doesn't want to use the money generated from Arsenal on his other ventures?

I never said he cares about the club, he 1000% cares about his investment and the bottom line however, which is what the ESL was all about.
That Kroenke and his family is in it solely for the money aught to be clear to everyone. The business happens to be sports (Rams, Arsenal, Avalanche etc.) but could have been sausage making. Kroenke has even said so himself, that he is not in it to win trophies. He wants to make money. If that can be achieved while winning trophies then fine, but it really isn't the goal. So if that family can find a way to ensure a reliable income stream, e.g. through an ESL, they will take it regardless what anyone thinks or feels. They do not care!

That Arteta, the players and us fans care if we win or lose is 100% clear also. Our motivations might differ, but for one reason or another we want wins and trophies. The Kroenkes could care less as long as a profit is generated. If that comes through league position, guaranteed ESL money or number of sausages sold at the Emirates really doesn't matter. Struggle to understand why that isn't 100% clear to everyone.
 

TimoJens

Formerly known as highbury_2006
If he doesnt win Europa League he should leave after this season. I really like Arteta and dont doubt that he really want to bring trophies to the club but this season has been so bad. Kroenke said that he and his voiceless father want to make Arsenal great again and if thats true you cant keep Arteta if we fail in Europa League. It isnt true though so if Arteta want to stay he will stay no matter what.
 

CaseUteinberger

Established Member

Country: Sweden
Also people on here happy to accept Pep, Klopp etc didn't know anything about the situation.

Arteta must have known though, because he's such a bad guy and manager. Proper agenda merchanting.
I can 100% understand if some posters think Arteta is the wrong manager for Arsenal, but some have totally gone of the deep end in their hatred. Like Arteta is both some football anti-Christ mastermind weaving his evil plans and at the same time some idiotic, incompetent yes man. I have written it before, but some have really lost it, if they ever had it in the first place.
 

CaseUteinberger

Established Member

Country: Sweden
It's not some imaginary situation (AM have gone so deep into their Arteta-out hole they have long ago lost most sense of perspective), it is reality.

It's almost end of April and we're 9th on the table (only on merit of more games played).
That's midtable level.

Therefore if he fails to win Europa, he should be sacked.
:rolleyes: ... think you misunderstood my point. I have no issues with posters and fans wanting Arteta out. If you think a 9th league position at this time of year with the squad we have unacceptable, then please go ahead and have that view and say you want Arteta out. The deep hole I was referring to is the undiluted Arteta hatred where anything he does and says is interpreted in the most negative light possible. Kind of a reverse Özil syndrome (probably roughly the same lot of posters subject to that too) where anything Özil did or said was greeted as epically well thought through and good.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
I can 100% understand if some posters think Arteta is the wrong manager for Arsenal, but some have totally gone of the deep end in their hatred. Like Arteta is both some football anti-Christ mastermind weaving his evil plans and at the same time some idiotic, incompetent yes man. I have written it before, but some have really lost it, if they ever had it in the first place.
Well in my case, just if there was any confusion, I’m not saying he is an evil mastermind. I am saying though that he likely wouldn’t *currently* be manger of Arsenal with different owners so if anyone thinks he is with KroenkeOut that would be taking it too far, and it is natural in overall PR disasters like this one not to fight fans and the anger, but instead soothe it, the idea being to let it dissipate. That’s why in my comment I said I am sceptical of any real daylight between Arteta and the Kroenke’s.,
 

Iceman10

Established Member
Will also reiterate this, because it was said above that Arteta pushed the Kroenke’s for more investment *last summer*. I did not see Arteta pushing the Kroenke’s for help to be more aggressive in the transfer market (selling “deadwood” and buys), only the contrary, but if anyone has quotes to say he did please provide them.

- Last summer, Arteta said he was getting all the help he needed for transfers instead of publicly expressing that he would like more, to push the owners on the back of his (Arteta’s) credit and goodwill with fans on the back of the FA Cup win.

- Some people here have been saying that Arteta says he still needs 5-6 players (I haven’t seen direct quotes of Arteta, but that is their impression). Is that compatible with understanding the challenge *last summer* so as to make clear to the Kroenke’s the extent of work to be done to push them to do the equivalent of the loan arrangement for Liverpool? No it isn’t, but as I said above I did largely put this all down to inexperience last summer.

I don’t understand excuses like “But Partey” stuff. We cut corners with Willian and it will cost us more in the long run, just as with any appeasement “investment” by the Kroenke’s this coming summer to try to soothe the pitchforks instead of doing the job properly last summer.
 
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Iceman10

Established Member
Ok, just did some digging of my own for last summer.

June 2020:

"Mikel Arteta admits he has “big concerns” about whether he will receive transfer funds to improve his team to compete with the best teams next season"


Oct 2020:

"I am very happy because the way we are acting and the way we are approaching and doing the processes around the market, around the squad and the communication link that we have at the moment between myself, Edu, the board and the ownership is really good and I'm really satisfied. And I know that we are all trying our best to improve the team and try to take the direction to achieve the goals that we want."


... I did not know about what he said in June of last year, but I was aware, and have been going on, the quote from October.
 

Rasmi

Negative Nancy

Country: England
Most people who are stubborn aren't just stubborn in one facet of their lives though.

The yes man stuff makes zero sense to me. He was very outspoken in the media last summer over the need for the club to invest. Yes men don't say that sort of stuff.

I don't think many would call Wenger a yes man but he never spoke out in the media in the way Arteta did, putting public pressure on for investment.

He's been doing it this season too. Saying he needs 5-6 players for the squad to be where he wants.
If he's outspoken and upfront the fans give him crap and if his press conference doesn't coincide with all this Super League nonsense he gets chided for not speaking out, when Klopp, Pep etc only broached the subject when they were asked about it in their press conferences.
I don’t know much about much. But I know Arteta is a liar. This I know for sure. Every time his lips are moving he is lying
 

Blood on the Tracks

AG's best friend, role model and mentor.
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Rice
I can 100% understand if some posters think Arteta is the wrong manager for Arsenal, but some have totally gone of the deep end in their hatred. Like Arteta is both some football anti-Christ mastermind weaving his evil plans and at the same time some idiotic, incompetent yes man. I have written it before, but some have really lost it, if they ever had it in the first place.

I've got zero issue with the people who think he's a crap manager. Maybe I'm wrong and he is rubbish.

Whether he's good at his job or not though it's crystal clear to me that he's got ambition and really wants the club to be successful. If we're being brutally honest there are very few others in positions of power at the club that you could say that about.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
I've got zero issue with the people who think he's a crap manager. Maybe I'm wrong and he is rubbish.

Whether he's good at his job or not though it's crystal clear to me that he's got ambition and really wants the club to be successful. If we're being brutally honest there are very few others in positions of power at the club that you could say that about.

Well I can tell you what I've mainly been fighting over the last two pages. Fickleness. A couple of days back @albakos said Arteta should be sacked if we don't win the Europa League, in part due to underperformance in the PL. This was already a position I was at after WHU/Liverpool matches combined, and that's what I'm sticking to. A press conference or availability here or there by Arteta or the Kroenke's won't change my mind on either (no fickleness). This is important for what is to follow, because there is a noticeable split on what to do with Arteta if we reach the final of EL and lose while also being out of EL slots in the final PL table.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
I will also add that the idea Artera isn't stubborn is a steep climb, based on his persistence with playing Auba wide or playing Willian ahead of other players, which has deprived Martinelli, Pepe. and Reiss of playing minutes. We've seen it with Saliba and other cases also. This is all sound, but some were bamboozled on the last page with an argument that indirectly had an accusation of having an agenda for tagging Artera with "stubbornness" instead of appreciating it was data driven. I was hurt by that.
 

scytheavatar

Established Member
I've got zero issue with the people who think he's a crap manager. Maybe I'm wrong and he is rubbish.

Whether he's good at his job or not though it's crystal clear to me that he's got ambition and really wants the club to be successful. If we're being brutally honest there are very few others in positions of power at the club that you could say that about.

I have little doubt that guys like Josh, Edu and Vinai got ambition and really want the club to be successful too. Not that it matters when they have shallow and naive ideas as to how they can make us successful.
 

Blood on the Tracks

AG's best friend, role model and mentor.
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Rice
I have little doubt that guys like Josh, Edu and Vinai got ambition and really want the club to be successful too. Not that it matters when they have shallow and naive ideas as to how they can make us successful.

What it comes down to me is it's about accountability. If Arteta doesn't get the results or meet his objectives he'll get sacked. That's fine with me.

Vinai and Edu just hide in the background most of the time trying not to be noticed. Vinai gets wheeled out every now and then to take a tongue lashing on behalf of the Kroenke's.

Josh is a PR merchant. Says the same sort of rubbish every season. It's so hollow.

Stan doesn't even deign us worthy to bother talking to us.

Arteta is almost a moot point to me at the moment. Sack him, keep him, who cares.
With jokers like these running the club we're going nowhere fast, in fact we're going into a managed decline irrespective of who the manager is.
 

albakos

Arséne Wenger: "I will miss you"
Administrator

Country: Kosova

Player:Saka
:rolleyes: ... think you misunderstood my point. I have no issues with posters and fans wanting Arteta out. If you think a 9th league position at this time of year with the squad we have unacceptable, then please go ahead and have that view and say you want Arteta out. The deep hole I was referring to is the undiluted Arteta hatred where anything he does and says is interpreted in the most negative light possible. Kind of a reverse Özil syndrome (probably roughly the same lot of posters subject to that too) where anything Özil did or said was greeted as epically well thought through and good.
Not really into that.

Football is mainly a results-based sport and for a team as big as Arsenal the pressure to perform/win will always be big on any manager. This pressure for better results applies to even the best managers like Wenger, so there shouldn't be any leeway for Arteta nor anyone else.

I am not blinded with Arteta hate or whatever is implied, I recognize him for the fact that he wanted to trim the squad to have it more prepared for the campaign. He's made some good moves in offloading Mustafi, Sokratis, Kola and an underperforming Torreira.
But on the other side he made some pretty shocking squad management decisions as well and I will not go into that, because we'll get into an endless loop.

What it boils down to that we are on 9th and the continuous decline is there to see. This is due to many factors: inexperienced manager, covid, opposition getting better while we stagnate etc...

Arteta has had a lot of freedom with the squad decisions and wanting to put his vision on the pitch.

He made the following:

Signings he asked for: Willian 🤬 , Gabriel, Partey, Ødegaard(loan), Mari, Cedric, Runarson, Ryan​
Selling: Özil, Mustafi, Sokratis, Martinez​
Loans: Guendouzi, Torreira, AMN, Willock, Saliba​
Keeping those who he wanted to continue with: Bellerin, Xhaka, Holding, Laca, Ceballos and Elneny 🤬,​
Continuing contracts: Saka 🌟, Auba and Luiz​
Freezing, thus devaluating players: Martinelli (until late), Nelson, Nketiah, Chambers (until late)​

One cannot claim that this is not Arteta's team yet, because he was given plenty of space to maneuver around with the squad, to get some players as well as inheriting a team of decent performers with a top, top striker (Auba) in it.

Despite all of these changes, there is no improvement, there is a visible decline in results as well as performances (in the bigger picture, not just post-Boxing Day as some will have you think here).

If we think: Let's give him one final chance to see what he does in summer, then it will turn even worse. This is because if the new season starts awfully, there's another season gone and the damage will already be done.

By then if you decide to fire Arteta in mid-season you're only taking a mitigating action for the risk you have faced into, instead of having taken a preventive action (before season start) earlier on to stop that same risk from happening. Simple risk management and risk treatment decisions :)

The results are missing, we are in decline, so it finally boils down to that if we don't get back to CL by winning Europa, he should be sacked at end of season.
 

Blood on the Tracks

AG's best friend, role model and mentor.
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Rice
Not really into that.

Football is mainly a results-based sport and for a team as big as Arsenal the pressure to perform/win will always be big on any manager. This pressure for better results applies to even the best managers like Wenger, so there shouldn't be any leeway for Arteta nor anyone else.

I am not blinded with Arteta hate or whatever is implied, I recognize him for the fact that he wanted to trim the squad to have it more prepared for the campaign. He's made some good moves in offloading Mustafi, Sokratis, Kola and an underperforming Torreira.
But on the other side he made some pretty shocking squad management decisions as well and I will not go into that, because we'll get into an endless loop.

What it boils down to that we are on 9th and the continuous decline is there to see. This is due to many factors: inexperienced manager, covid, opposition getting better while we stagnate etc...

Arteta has had a lot of freedom with the squad decisions and wanting to put his vision on the pitch.

He made the following:

Signings he asked for: Willian 🤬 , Gabriel, Partey, Ødegaard(loan), Mari, Cedric, Runarson, Ryan​
Selling: Özil, Mustafi, Sokratis, Martinez​
Loans: Guendouzi, Torreira, AMN, Willock, Saliba​
Keeping those who he wanted to continue with: Bellerin, Xhaka, Holding, Laca, Ceballos and Elneny 🤬,​
Continuing contracts: Saka 🌟, Auba and Luiz​
Freezing, thus devaluating players: Martinelli (until late), Nelson, Nketiah, Chambers (until late)​

One cannot claim that this is not Arteta's team yet, because he was given plenty of space to maneuver around with the squad, to get some players as well as inheriting a team of decent performers with a top, top striker (Auba) in it.

Despite all of these changes, there is no improvement, there is a visible decline in results as well as performances (in the bigger picture, not just post-Boxing Day as some will have you think here).

If we think: Let's give him one final chance to see what he does in summer, then it will turn even worse. This is because if the new season starts awfully, there's another season gone and the damage will already be done.

By then if you decide to fire Arteta in mid-season you're only taking a mitigating action for the risk you have faced into, instead of having taken a preventive action (before season start) earlier on to stop that same risk from happening. Simple risk management and risk treatment decisions :)

The results are missing, we are in decline, so it finally boils down to that if we don't get back to CL by winning Europa, he should be sacked at end of season.

I'm not aiming this at you as you are fair minded with your criticisms / observations about Arteta and I agree with a lot of them.

I can't help but feel that a lot of the more vociferous Arteta out sorts are using the 'He must win the Europa League to keep his job' stuff a bit sneakily though.

If people don't think he's a good manager why would Arteta winning the Europa League fundamentally change their view? Okay he'll have met his objectives this season but we're already seeing his detractors say the FA Cup win was a fluke, why not the same with the Europa League if he wins it? Maybe he's just a lucky cup manager?

There are even caveats from a lot of supporters who follow the Europa League or bust line of thinking. He needs to be on a tighter leash next season in terms of transfers etc even if he does win it.

If we do end up winning the Europa League, which is a bit if admittedly, he'll have won 2 major trophies in 18 months and got us back into the CL. Whatever anyone things about player recruitment, tactics, Artetas personality or philosophy you couldn't score his spell here to date as anything under an 8 out of 10 in terms of actual achievements and goals reached. Personally I don't see how it could be below a 9.
 
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