Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[Trilly]

I think because the club have committed to developing him and we are far down the road now.

I know there was big talk when he came in back in 2019, but I think the club knew that would be a chance of having to take extra time to develop him into a manager. They are basically working on extracting that now.

I’d say unless there is a ready made better option to take over, with what’s already been built (Potter perhaps), we won’t see any uprooting and restarting happening. We are not City, Chelsea or United who can just chop and change because of near unlimited resources.

Okay so next question..who at the club is going to help him develop as a manager?

Vinai and EDu are both rookies, Tim Lewis is a lawyer. Maybe you could develop a manager at a club like City but how does that work here where our executives are all clueless/learning?

 

[samspade]

I wonder what the goals will be next season. We've already seen within the space of a week Arteta shift the goalposts from "top 4 being the goal" to "we've done more than people expected".

Rather than wondering what the consequences will be if he doesn't achieve them, I'm more thinking how they'll shift the goalposts when we inevitably don't.

These discussions just aren't precise enough. We need to specify what time period we are talking about when we discuss goal posts, success and failure. It's a fact that AM have shifted the goalposts since the start of the season. Many have bristled at the statement 'you'd have taken 5th at the start of the season' as they believe circumstances have changed, which is true: to have a sensible discussion about the future, the goalposts can and must be shifted as one gains more information about the progress of an endeavour. But when we go to review the season as a whole it should be as a whole.

What's missing is the recognition that the statement 'Is 5th failure given nothing has happened' and the statement 'Is 5th failure given we are x points clear with eight games to go' are different, the first can be false and simultaneously the second true. We are finishing 5th in a season where it takes a fairly normal amount of points to finish 4th, if we agreed that that performance over a thirty-eight-game period wasn't failure at the start of the season we should agree it's not failure now, but, as I said, the question of whether the last 8 games were a failure given what has come before is a different one. With Arteta being the manager and in the thick of the action, it's quite reasonable for him to think of the top four as the target with eight games to go given what has gone before, and then when the season is over, to consider it as a whole with the target being 6th.

In my opinion, the season has had a number of successes and failures and the thirty-eight-game sum is a decent season, nothing more or less.

 

[Trilly]

In my opinion, the season has had a number of successes and failures and the thirty-eight-game sum is a decent season, nothing more or less.

Decent season taking into account the money spent or not?

I agree with decent season, I think that makes it worse are contextual factors.

1. Having one game a week (huge impact when we look at previous teams achievements when playing once a week)
2. End of season collapse (especially when it’s not United but Sp**s who may pip 4th)
3. Spending more money than any European team
4. Having a terrible Jan window due to being financially hamstrung, a situation that has arguable been caused by spending 75M on players our manager refused to work with.

 

[Oxeki]

Anything close to top 4 should be just a dream with all the other clubs with either better managers and better squads, or both.

This what I always have a problem with. It's not even next seas yet and excuses are already out.

So what then should be the goal next season?

 

[samspade]

Unfortunately staying calm isn't all that easy for everyone. I had a bit of an anger meltdown a week or so ago when I felt posters enjoyed a Sp**s win if I recall correctly. But you are of course right. Getting all bent out of shape really doesn't help.

It's not easy for me, let me tell you. I'm a hothead. But it makes discussion pointless and unpleasant. If there is a useful vector for anger, AM is not it.

 

[MikelHadADream]

These discussions just aren't precise enough. We need to specify what time period we are talking about when we discuss goal posts, success and failure. It's a fact that AM have shifted the goalposts since the start of the season. Many have bristled at the statement 'you'd have taken 5th at the start of the season' as they believe circumstances have changed, which is true: to have a sensible discussion about the future, the goalposts can and must be shifted as one gains more information about the progress of an endeavour. But when we go to review the season as a whole it should be as a whole.

What's missing is the recognition that the statement 'Is 5th failure given nothing has happened' and the statement 'Is 5th failure given we are x points clear with eight games to go' are different, the first can be false and simultaneously the second true. We are finishing 5th in a season where it takes a fairly normal amount of points to finish 4th, if we agreed that that performance over a thirty-eight-game period wasn't failure at the start of the season we should agree it's not failure now, but, as I said, the question of whether the last 8 games were a failure given what has come before is a different one. With Arteta being the manager and in the thick of the action, it's quite reasonable for him to think of the top four as the target with eight games to go given what has gone before, and then when the season is over, to consider it as a whole with the target being 6th.

In my opinion, the season has had a number of successes and failures and the thirty-eight-game sum is a decent season, nothing more or less.

What people on here say is largely irrelevant in my opinion. We are supporters giving opinions on a football club on an internet forum, that's it.

I appreciate the way you're looking at it, but for me the discussions are getting too complex. How about we judge the manager, the most important person at the football club, by his own words.

He's said on multiple occasions now, the goal of the season was to finish in the top 4. Barring a miracle we haven't achieved that, it's as simple as that. What's rubbing people the wrong way now is his backtracking on those targets he set, after one of the worst performances most of us have seen from an Arsenal team.

Not that it really matters, but my own opinion at the start of the season was we should be finishing in the top 4. I wanted Arteta to be held accountable for what he did in the transfer window, which I largely disagreed with, and the fact we had 1 game a week.

 

[Trilly]

It’s incidents like the Saliba situation that cause divides. Mikel simply has to be held to a higher standard when he makes bold calls like paying Auba to leave and deciding that one of the best young CBs in the world isn’t good enough.

We’re often told that we can’t sack him because we don’t have unlimited resources like chelsea and city. Yet Mikel treats our squad like he’s playing manager mode on fifa.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

This what I always have a problem with. It's not even next seas yet and excuses are already out.

So what then should be the goal next season?

Here is what I wrote:

"If he is as **** as most say here we should expect us to crash and burn next season. Anything close to top 4 should be just a dream with all the other clubs with either better managers and better squads, or both."

My point was exactly that. If he is as **** as most here say then we should crash and burn!

Let me ask you instead, with a summer window and a different manager what would be your expectation for next season?

 

[CaseUteinberger]

It's not easy for me, let me tell you. I'm a hothead. But it makes discussion pointless and unpleasant. If there is a useful vector for anger, AM is not it.

Well, you are doing a lot better job than I am. I have to hold back at work so guess here I am letting of more steam. I usually cool off pretty quickly though. Don't want a loss to ruin my whole week!

 

[Camus]

It’s incidents like the Saliba situation that cause divides. Mikel simply has to be held to a higher standard when he makes bold calls like paying Auba to leave and deciding that one of the best young CBs in the world isn’t good enough.

We’re often told that we can’t sack him because we don’t have unlimited resources like chelsea and city. Yet Mikel treats our squad like he’s playing manager mode on fifa.

There's loads, but another recent one is Guimarães. I've had numerous discussion with fans that insist that passing up on Guimarães was the right call purely because Arteta wasn't keen on him. No rational discussion about his ability as a player, no reasoned point about whether he suits us/fulfils a area we are lacking etc... Nope none of that. Simply boils down to:

Arteta doesn't want him = Automatically the right decision.

 

[2Smokeyy]

Decent season taking into account the money spent or not?

I agree with decent season, I think that makes it worse are contextual factors.

1. Having one game a week (huge impact when we look at previous teams achievements when playing once a week)
2. End of season collapse (especially when it’s not United but Sp**s who may pip 4th)
3. Spending more money than any European team
4. Having a terrible Jan window due to being financially hamstrung, a situation that has arguable been caused by spending 75M on players our manager refused to work with.

5. Started the season on the backfoot with a very underwhelming summer window which we failed to address our main priorities but instead decided to hugely overspend on young players that weren’t necessary signings. 2/10 window as I rated it at the time since we spent more than any team in Europe but haven’t really seen any massive signs of improvement.

 

[Oxeki]

Let me ask you instead, with a summer window and a different manager what would be your expectation for next season?

Top 4 or top 5 playing consistently decent football. One of the reason Arteta has a lot of detractors is because our football under him has largely been uninspiring. Even this season, our best football was in that one month run in december. Before that it was meh and after that it was meh.

If we were creating chances and fun to watch even if we weren't winning many games a la Klopp early Liverpool team, a lot of people would have a lot of time for him, even if he was a scumbag.

 

[Trilly]

5. Started the season on the backfoot with a very underwhelming summer window which we failed to address our main priorities but instead decided to hugely overspend on young players that weren’t necessary signings. 2/10 window as I rated it at the time since we spent more than any team in Europe but haven’t really seen any massive signs of improvement.

Same as number four then. It’s just affected us in two different ways.

 

[arghhhh]

It’s incidents like the Saliba situation that cause divides. Mikel simply has to be held to a higher standard when he makes bold calls like paying Auba to leave and deciding that one of the best young CBs in the world isn’t good enough.

We’re often told that we can’t sack him because we don’t have unlimited resources like chelsea and city. Yet Mikel treats our squad like he’s playing manager mode on fifa.

I don't overpay for mediocre players on FM/FIFA

 

[samspade]

Decent season taking into account the money spent or not?

I agree with decent season, I think that makes it worse are contextual factors.

1. Having one game a week (huge impact when we look at previous teams achievements when playing once a week)
2. End of season collapse (especially when it’s not United but Sp**s who may pip 4th)
3. Spending more money than any European team
4. Having a terrible Jan window due to being financially hamstrung, a situation that has arguable been caused by spending 75M on players our manager refused to work with.

This is complex in my view and I'm not going to go too deep into it. If you want my opinion on these topics I've detailed them in the past.

I think it mainly comes down to how best to maintain our portfolio of players. I thought the squad was badly in need of investment as we had allowed the value of our assets to decay. If one accepts my premise then restoring the real value of our squad is a necessity. If we want to future proof the squad with young players then we have to recognise that costs us money and points on the pitch in the short term as young players are inconsistent and could easily be outperformed by a more experienced option. I personally believed there was a cultural problem at Arsenal that started to develop with Özil and got worse under Emery, changing that results in fallouts, costs money and therefore points on the pitch. We have sold poorly for a long time including under Wenger which has cost us money and points on the pitch (I'm not absolving the current regime, there has been some horrendous outgoing business). All things considered, we only had so much available to invest limiting the potential size and quality of the squad. Investment proceeded with the one-game-a-week factor in mind, and even if we wanted to, we couldn't have constructed a squad that could maintain a good standard in both European and domestic competition. We had key injuries toward the end of the season contributing to our collapse which really comes back to squad quality.

For me personally, it comes down to agreeing with the basic premise that if we keep thinking long term and making good long term investments then the quality and mentality of the squad will improve and so will our potential.

You focused on a very small part of my post, what did you think of the rest of it?

 

[jones]

I think there are a number of reasons-- hate and anger don't have to be involved when you make the reasoned decision that you don't want to support the regime by not purchasing merchandise; only extreme levels of visible, local-to-the-club hate are going to have a big influence on the decision-makers at Arsenal; it's bad for your health; it makes reasoned discussion very difficult (kills critical faculties in general); it spills over on to the people you engage with. It's just not that useful.

Mate you're on an internet forum talking to strangers about football. None of your emotions or words have any influence on the decision makers.

Literally the only thing "useful" would be coming here to vent, at least you feel better about the club being run by a bunch of clowns. You're talking about "engaging in reasoned discussions" and critical faculties like your ****posting here is equal to handing in a paper at university.

 

[samspade]

Let me ask you instead, with a summer window and a different manager what would be your expectation for next season?

A very cutting question, what are reasonable expectations for this club? It should be discussed more as many play it both ways and use our history as a justification for 'minimum standards' but use finances as a justification for Wenger's lack of success late in his arsenal tenure. Well, at best that leaves us in a miniscule bracket where Arsenal can only finish 4th and any deviation from that would be absurd.

 

[jones]

With Arteta being the manager and in the thick of the action, it's quite reasonable for him to think of the top four as the target with eight games to go given what has gone before, and then when the season is over, to consider it as a whole with the target being 6th.

We finished just six points off 4th last season, a season that everyone unanimously agreed was a failure. This season we had 12-ish games fewer since we were out of Europe plus we spent 160m last summer. Why on earth would 6th be the target?

 

[Trilly]

This is complex in my view and I'm not going to go too deep into it. If you want my opinion on these topics I've detailed them in the past.

I think it mainly comes down to how best to maintain our portfolio of players. I thought the squad was badly in need of investment as we had allowed the value of our assets to decay. If one accepts my premise then restoring the real value of our squad is a necessity. If we want to future proof the squad with young players then we have to recognise that costs us money and points on the pitch in the short term as young players are inconsistent and could easily be outperformed by a more experienced option. I personally believed there was a cultural problem at Arsenal that started to develop with Özil and got worse under Emery, changing that results in fallouts, costs money and therefore points on the pitch. We have sold poorly for a long time including under Wenger which has cost us money and points on the pitch (I'm not absolving the current regime, there has been some horrendous outgoing business). All things considered, we only had so much available to invest limiting the potential size and quality of the squad. Investment proceeded with the one-game-a-week factor in mind, and even if we wanted to, we couldn't have constructed a squad that could maintain a good standard in both European and domestic competition. We had key injuries toward the end of the season contributing to our collapse which really comes back to squad quality.

For me personally, it comes down to agreeing with the basic premise that if we keep thinking long term and making good long term investments then the quality and mentality of the squad will improve and so will our potential.

You focused on a very small part of my post, what did you think of the rest of it?

Didn’t really get it tbh.

Think you’re saying the season can be a success and a failure at the same time, which is true to an extent. I still don’t think fifth with one game a week is a success, it’s more just okay. Add the self-inflected collapse in and I think that tips the season overall to a failure. Not a massive one but a failure none the less.

On the cultural reset stuff, even before Arteta I’ve been saying that this kind of stuff is just BS that people focus on when we’re not winning. If your players and managers aren’t good enough you can have all the team building lunches you want, you’re still going to lose games.

I doubt anyone talked about a cultural reset at Liverpool when Klopp arrived. The only culture/mentality that matters is winning.

 

[samspade]

Mate you're on an internet forum talking to strangers about football. None of your emotions or words have any influence on the decision makers.

You do realise I was responding to someone suggesting we should continue to foster our anger as it could effect change?

Literally the only thing "useful" would be coming here to vent, at least you feel better about the club being run by a bunch of clowns. You're talking about "engaging in reasoned discussions" and critical faculties like your ****posting here is equal to handing in a paper at university.

Lol.