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Mikel Arteta: Miktoria Concordia Crexit

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
Obviously a very, very good player but the difference between him and the very best is that I think he’d rather rack up 20 goals than actually do what it takes to win.

Neymar and Suarez sacrificed huge parts of their game because they realised play had to go through Messi and it meant that the team could win.

Alexis to me wouldn’t do it. He wouldn’t adapt his game and there’s a reason both him and Cesc were ran out of town and the team immediately evaluated.

I agree with you but I think with Cesc it's a bit different. To this day I don't know why they signed him but for being able to do so cause he was good at Arsenal and "had Barca DNA". Back in 2011 Cesc was playing as a 10 for Arsenal, which they didn't have at Barca. Xavi was going to spend another 4 years there as their playmaker and Cesc only developed into a DLP later at Chelsea - so successor stuff my ass. And they also had that guy at their club already in Thiago. Messi was playing false 9 operating in the almost exact same spaces as Arsenal Cesc did at 10. I remember Pep trying a 343 diamond so he could fit in Cesc at 10 in front of his usual Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta trio but him and Messi were just blocking each other. It was so useless Barca got Cesc and that fact makes the whole transfer and saga even more infuriating.
 

Macho

Has Trust Issues With Processes
Dusted 🔻
I agree with you but I think with Cesc it's a bit different. To this day I don't know why they signed him but for being able to do so cause he was good at Arsenal and "had Barca DNA". Back in 2011 Cesc was playing as a 10 for Arsenal, which they didn't have at Barca. Xavi was going to spend another 4 years there as their playmaker and Cesc only developed into a DLP later at Chelsea - so successor stuff my ass. And they also had that guy at their club already in Thiago. Messi was playing false 9 operating in the almost exact same spaces as Arsenal Cesc did at 10. I remember Pep trying a 343 diamond so he could fit in Cesc at 10 in front of his usual Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta trio but him and Messi were just blocking each other. It was so useless Barca got Cesc and that fact makes the whole transfer and saga even more infuriating.
They didn’t need him no, he ended up being utility player and getting some stick from the fans as he was seen as a prem player than a true product of Barca lol.

He was surrounded by losers here which hastened his exit unfortunately.
 

A__G

Cedric and Mari ruined my life
Moderator
Do you really believe this?

These kids have seen big names shamed and shipped out for nothing, I’d say that had more to do with it than Brazilian day at the canteen.

Emery tried this and it didn’t get the same backing.
The players seem to be alright with it, I guess we’ll see in All or Nothing what Teta is like with them behind the scenes. They could’ve turned on him numerous times but he seems to have them onside.
 

Macho

Has Trust Issues With Processes
Dusted 🔻
The players seem to be alright with it, I guess we’ll see in All or Nothing what Teta is like with them behind the scenes. They could’ve turned on him numerous times but he seems to have them onside.
Not what I was saying.

There’s a difference of seeing Emery saying stuff and nothing happening compared to leaving the club looking like an absolute loser like Özil and Auba.

There’s been too many disgruntled players to act like Arteta hasn’t lost the locker room it’s just luckily for him Saka has stayed on side and just plays his ball.

You’re saying some strange stuff today, you must be seeing the summer window and hedging your bets thinking these lot are gonna do something :lol:
 

Entropics

Well-Known Member

Player: Rúnarsson
I agree with you but I think with Cesc it's a bit different. To this day I don't know why they signed him but for being able to do so cause he was good at Arsenal and "had Barca DNA". Back in 2011 Cesc was playing as a 10 for Arsenal, which they didn't have at Barca. Xavi was going to spend another 4 years there as their playmaker and Cesc only developed into a DLP later at Chelsea - so successor stuff my ass. And they also had that guy at their club already in Thiago. Messi was playing false 9 operating in the almost exact same spaces as Arsenal Cesc did at 10. I remember Pep trying a 343 diamond so he could fit in Cesc at 10 in front of his usual Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta trio but him and Messi were just blocking each other. It was so useless Barca got Cesc and that fact makes the whole transfer and saga even more infuriating.

There was the prodigal son narrative on their side, and the "this is my dream so Arsenal can **** off" idea on Cesc side.

The only part that frustrated me back then was how his attitude didn't allow us to get more money from him. He didn't work with us like Ronaldo did with United to get money from Real Madrid so we received peanuts relative for a player of his quality instead. It's a miracle that Wenger kept it working after losing the soul of his team and buying what seemed to be like 5 random players (including our current manager), the warchest finally unlocked in a hurry to bring the likes of Benayoun on loan.
 

Macho

Has Trust Issues With Processes
Dusted 🔻
People seem to be taking my opinion that dressing room culture matters as some kind of endorsement of Arteta. It’s odd.
Every manager should try to impose some sort of culture that’s not what a lot of us are saying.

Some don’t want to see Arteta praised period he’s a polarising character who didn’t earn his spot, it’s not that strange.

After all these millions spent, time given, if things go pear shaped will Arteta be questioned? Probably not, stuff like culture will come up and that’s what makes it lame and such a trigger to some fans.
 

A__G

Cedric and Mari ruined my life
Moderator
Every manager should try to impose some sort of culture that’s not what a lot of us are saying.

Some don’t want to see Arteta praised period he’s a polarising character that’s not strange.

After all these millions spent, time given, if things go pear shaped will Arteta be questioned? Probably not, stuff like culture will come up and that’s what makes it lame and such a trigger to some fans.
I wasn’t endorsing or criticising Arteta’s culture change stuff, I was just disagreeing with people earlier in the thread who don’t believe that culture is a thing in football.

I’ve criticised Arteta over Auba/Saliba and I was one of the first on here to point out the blatant access journalism practiced by the Athletic.
 

Entropics

Well-Known Member

Player: Rúnarsson
People seem to be taking my opinion that dressing room culture matters as some kind of endorsement of Arteta. It’s odd.

Yeah pretty much

Rimaal was filling the blanks because your examples are

- Wenger: Bellerin moaning, players doing balloons, leaks, downed tools
- Arteta: Brazilian themed lunches, tight squad

But if that's your argument, I don't know who is disagreeing really. What some have said is that culture barely matters when results aren't there, and that from the outside is hard to see how much value things like having a Brazilian themed lunch help the team achieve their goals

Unless the sucessor is very aligned with what was in place already (Guardiola to Vilanova for example) culture will always change anyway, Emery did try some stuff and it didn't work out, IIRC something related with team talks that the team just didn't get and found cringey, something like that.

An example of how hard is to see these things from the outside is believing the squad is tight because they're committed to Mikel Arteta. Maybe they are just content with the new mediocre environment at Arsenal, maybe they actually fear Arteta's wrath. Who knows.

From what I see, what I believe is we're being very naive thinking is just a matter of buying more players because we're doing everything so well, so it's ok to not play good football or get results for the time being. Coming from dramatic years when getting top 4 was nowhere near good enough it's disappoiting that getting no Europe barely elicits any interesting reaction from our lame squad. Hell, I'd take a crisis meeting where the team cries instead of an outsourced cultural review.

Then again, that's entirely subjective. Me not liking the squad is not really an argument, that's why I avoided talking about the Bellerin comment, even if you all know is just poor wording from him.
 

DJ_Markstar

Established Member
I agree with you but I think with Cesc it's a bit different. To this day I don't know why they signed him but for being able to do so cause he was good at Arsenal and "had Barca DNA". Back in 2011 Cesc was playing as a 10 for Arsenal, which they didn't have at Barca. Xavi was going to spend another 4 years there as their playmaker and Cesc only developed into a DLP later at Chelsea - so successor stuff my ass. And they also had that guy at their club already in Thiago. Messi was playing false 9 operating in the almost exact same spaces as Arsenal Cesc did at 10. I remember Pep trying a 343 diamond so he could fit in Cesc at 10 in front of his usual Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta trio but him and Messi were just blocking each other. It was so useless Barca got Cesc and that fact makes the whole transfer and saga even more infuriating.
Interestingly, if you look at Cesc's stats, he still got good numbers there, something like 1 in 3 for both goals and assists, 2 in 3 when combined, which is a much better output than basically everyone else bar Messi in his time there.

Although I do agree with the general sentiment, they were complete mugs for selling Cesc when they did as Xavi was clearly not long from retirement, they could have built another 3-5 years of sucCesc from having him alongside a more traditional B2B with Busquets behind, imo.

Messi was playing as a false 9 and obviously he plays where he wants to as he was the best in the world at the time, but there's no reason Cesc and Messi couldn't have played together imo. Messi was also a world class winger in previous seasons so without completely displacing Messi and having him slightly adapt his game may have meant they could play effectively together.

Also worth noting that Thiago left in 2013 as well, so they clearly had no plans for a Xavi successor despite having 2 of them at the club in 2013 and him not far off retirement - awful squad planning has to be to blame here, I guess having won the treble in 14/15 with MSN up front masked this.

Perhaps they could have even made a success of a different system with Thiago, Cesc and Iniesta with Busquets in a diamond instead of wasting hundreds of millions on needless signings like Dembele, Coutinho and Griezmann.
 

Rimaal

Mesmerised By Raccoons
Trusted ⭐
Why would “listen to myself” when everything in bold is projection from you? No point in discussing this if you’re just going to post reductionist waffle.

Not a projection, implication of your statements. You words logical extension.You can not give the person in charge credit for the best if he's not responsible for the rest. That rule applies to all facets of life, I'm afraid.

You have illustrated quite clearly - in so many posts over the past couple of days - how you felt about Wenger and how you feel about Arteta. Now stand by it come what may, because I certainly won't let you forget it.
 

Kav

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
I’m saying the leaks gave the impression of a broken dressing room. The fact that leaks continued afterwards is irrelevant because 1) I never blamed Wenger for them and 2)they happen at every club.

Leaks are symptomatic of a modern culture of self first. Newer players know how to use the press to their advantage.

In times past that would be considered a cardinal sin and anyone found guilty of such behavior would be labeled as persona non grata.

Today players, coaches, scouts, executives, kit men all leak information for their own purposes. Say that’s modern football. So I’m not sure it’s an example of a broken dressing room like you said or that of self interest at play.
 

Blood on the Tracks

The Trusted Essayist 📖
Trusted ⭐
See this is an interesting point and you make good points but I disagree overall.

Think football is a simple game and if you want to win you need world class players above anything.

SAF said in his book every season he wanted a top class goalkeeper and striker and he’d figure out the rest.

I don’t think guys he had like John O’Shea or Darren Fletcher were necessarily “winners” compared to Coquelin or Monreal.

The issue was they just had better players in key positions.





Controversial take but Alexis wasn’t a world class player because you couldn’t win the biggest honours with him as your main man.

He wanted to win his way with his crazy solo pressing which looks good to fans but is just going against team instructions.

Key point was that at Barcelona he was a bit part player and once they signed him he threw their balance off. He needed the majority of play to run through him and Guardiola then Tito got frustrated with him.

Also telling that for a major “winner” they couldn’t get it done with him in the team but once they upgraded to Neymar who was a world class player they immediately won the CL.

Good points.

Of course you need world class players if you want to win stuff. But to me you need the right personality in terms of commitment, work ethic, drive to succeed to become top, top class just as much as you need the natural potential and suitable coaching.

I mean even the best squads have jack of all trades / squad fillers. I think one of the reasons players such as O'Shea and Fletcher were kept around for so long was because they had the right attitude and Fergie trusted them. They were a part of the successful culture Fergie bred. To me they're examples of how far good attitudes and work ethic can take you, even if you're not the most naturally gifted.

Personally I never took to Alexis even though I thought he was a brilliant player for us and I agree the pressing stuff was counter productive and not beneficial to the team. It was petulant.

In regards to the Barca situation, yeah, he was a bit part player in one of the greatest clubs sides of all time and got upgraded on by a generational talent in Neymar. That's not really a knock on him. Cesc flopped there worse, virtually every player we've had over the last decade or so wouldn't get into that Barca side either.

Alexis didn't fit the mould Pep and co wanted. Not a possession player, too direct etc. He was an end product player not someone who's going to wrack up 95% pass accuracy stats. Don't think that didn't make him a very good footballer though.
 
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A__G

Cedric and Mari ruined my life
Moderator
Not a projection, implication of your statements. You words logical extension.You can not give the person in charge credit for the best if he's not responsible for the rest. That rule applies to all facets of life, I'm afraid.

You have illustrated quite clearly - in so many posts over the past couple of days - how you felt about Wenger and how you feel about Arteta. Now stand by it come what may, because I certainly won't let you forget it.
:lol::lol:

Not a single point was made. Oh well.
 

Entropics

Well-Known Member

Player: Rúnarsson
Wilshere needs to learn from Mustafi or Xhaka, the key to have Arteta begging you to sign a contract is to pretend you don't care. Lacazette made the same mistake too.

Bootlicking too hard makes Mikel see right through your intentions.
 

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