• ! ! ! IMPORTANT MESSAGE ! ! !

    Discussions about police investigations


    In light of recent developments about a player from Premier League being arrested and until there is an official announcement, ALL users should refrain from discussing or speculating about situations around personal off-pitch matters related to any Arsenal player. This is to protect you and the forum.

    Users who disregard this reminder will be issued warnings and their posts will get deleted from public.

Mikel Arteta: Miktoria Concordia Crexit

jones

Not German FFS
Trusted ⭐
I think we're just miles apart on how we rate both your squad and the teams around/below you tbh. I think Tottenham have a better central midfield than you (exacerbated by fitness issues) as I really rate Højbjerg, Skipp and Bentancur, and they're on a different planet with their attacking options. I think you're better at the back though.
I think they're all **** and/or limited, didn't know anyone actually rated Skipp especially.
I'm honestly a bit tired of the finances debate. When people simply won't acknowledge the full picture and just keep shouting about transfer fees, I don't know what to say. Yes, you've invested heavily, but your wage bill is still MILES behind the top teams and the money you have invested have been invested in the prospect of future development, not the here and now. With some of the arguments on here you'd think you brought in world class players, but we all know the investment have been made with the idea that they develop into players that will end up being more valuable than the fee in the long run. I just can't argue anything on good faith when people won't recognize the actual finances involved here. You're still literally 30% or so behind in wage budget to the top 4 clubs (Man Utd included here), and people should know just how much that is.
Your reasoning is all over the place. Transfer fees aren't the be all and end all but they still matter, regardless of whether you're tired of it or not it's a fact very few clubs can spend the ridiculous sums we dish out on players. Don't bother arguing at all if you're going to act like fees are not relevant (or if you actually believe someone like White will ever be worth more than 55m).

Wages matter yes, but there's a reason the wage bill is as low as it is. How the **** do you count that as a pro when the reason it's been trimmed is because we literally pay other clubs to take our top earner off us? It's a constant in Arteta's reign and the arguments made in his favour, create obstacles and reasons for failure yourself then cry havoc and poverty when you fail in the aftermath.
You're basically overpaying in fees for the potential of developing world class talent on acceptable wages, while the 4 clubs above you in spending are just outright signing world class players. You sign Ben White, Man Utd sign Varane etc.
And both United and Arsenal's signings were extremely dumb use of money. The fact the carcass of Varane isn't worth 35m doesn't make White's signing for a cool 50% more any better, necessary or less idiotic.
As I've said before in this thread, what's important with Arteta is seeing gradual improvement as that is the tools he's been given by the investment in youth. To me, getting 5th this year was gradual improvement. Next season, the football needs to improve. If it doesn't, that's when I'll start worrying.
It was gradual improvement from the extremely low starting point he himself laid out last season. This season was the season the football should've improved, no club in existence ever gave a manager this long to improve without expecting results within 24 months. It's not a sequential task, you can both improve on the players you have while at the same time improve the football on show with the squad you have to work with.

And cut the "the tools he was given" horseshit, he spent massively on wages and old players on the likes of Auba Willian and Luiz before, got prime players in like Partey, wastes a 72m asset on the bench without even trying to implement him, tried or succeeded in extending big earners like Mustafi or Xhaka. He's the most indulged manager in world football and his sycophants make him out to be Jeanne d'Arc.
But expecting top 4 when that is nowhere near the expected outcome given the tools at his/Arsenal's disposal just seem ****ing weird to me. Last season was definitely a missed chance, I'll give you that, but it also just highlights how you're basically "Man Utd getting their **** in order" away from probably not sniffing top 4 until one of the other 3 clubs **** the bed.
Again, I said I didn't expect **** from Arteta because I've seen enough to know better. Your whole stance is weird to me, so many interpolations, excuses, hypotheticals etc for a manager who literally has done nothing in his career but explain to the world how **** everyone he's had to work with is.
 

vantoure

Well-Known Member
How did he underperform this season? Genuinely asking for specific reasons here. Most people would've taken 5th at the start of the season if asked, and he got it with the youngest squad in the league.

I know the end of season run was poor, but if you take a step back it makes sense that such a young team would struggle under the pressure, not to mention the team you lost out on CL footy to fields two world class forwards which just gives you points even if you play like ****.

There's 4 team in the league right now significantly outspending you, so I don't see how getting 4th next season wouldn't be a great achievement. It's a shame you didn't get it this season but again, you barely lost out to a team pretty close to the level you're at but with actual world class players up top.

I do think there needs to be big improvement in the overall quality of play next season though FWIW when you have the ball, it's too uninspired at times so we'll see how investment in the gaping hole that is CF for you shakes out.
He underperformed.

The people that would have taken 5th at the start of the season also requested a good go at the cup competitions at least into April / May - a poll shows that.

He had the luxury of playing once every 2 weeks at some point from January onwards, thus playing with fresher players and enough time to get his idea across, and he still could not cross the line.

He had a Sp**s team in disarray for at least a 3rd of the season to compete with, and he still could not manage it. A Sp**s team whose captain was uninterested until Conte came in

He couldn't get a tune out of his top striker and had to pay to get him off. Of course he underperformed.

If people want to change the objectives of the club, fine. Do that boldly, but don't be sly about what underperformance is.

And the youth thing is not a valid excuse, when it's not like his hands were forced or that they were cheap players scouted from the back water leagues. It was a deliberate strategy for whatever reason. If they were being honest at the club, they'd indicate this change in direction and advise on how long fans can expect to compete properly, so they can be held accountable. Otherwise, it'll be a win-win always for them. Finish below 4th? Oh, we have a young team, you can expect us to do better. Finish in top-4? Genius.

Really quite irritating.

Anyway, I predict that with the Europa league this season (ready excuse for his followers), he'll finish about 5th/6th
 

Dokaka

AM's resident Hammer
I think they're all **** and/or limited, didn't know anyone actually rated Skipp especially.

Højbjerg is a central part of both out NT's midfield and Sp**s. Sure he's somewhat limited but you could say that about most footballers, when used in a role that fits him he's really ****ing good. Skipp I just think is a solid footballer, nothing amazing but I'd say the same about someone like Xhaka. I like the balance of their midfield quite a bit after Bentancur was brought in, all 3 play well in Conte's system.

Your reasoning is all over the place. Transfer fees aren't the be all and end all but they still matter, regardless of whether you're tired of it or not it's a fact very few clubs can spend the ridiculous sums we dish out on players. Don't bother arguing at all if you're going to act like fees are not relevant (or if you actually believe someone like White will ever be worth more than 55m).

Of course fees matter, where did I say they didn't? But the fees mean little without context. Surely you can see the difference between spending £35m on a prospect vs. spending £35m on an established class player. The expectations are different, thus the expectations from the board towards Arteta are different.

Wages matter yes, but there's a reason the wage bill is as low as it is. How the **** do you count that as a pro when the reason it's been trimmed is because we literally pay other clubs to take our top earner off us? It's a constant in Arteta's reign and the arguments made in his favour, create obstacles and reasons for failure yourself then cry havoc and poverty when you fail in the aftermath.

The figures I mentioned included Auba, Özil etc. You've been miles behind in wage spending for a long time. It's not an excuse, it's genuinely just a fact and wage expenditure is the most consistent predictor in outcome in terms of points.

The transfer fees play a big part too of course, but you've invested those fees in the future and you're judging Arteta on the here and now. There's a discrepancy there, no?

And both United and Arsenal's signings were extremely dumb use of money. The fact the carcass of Varane isn't worth 35m doesn't make White's signing for a cool 50% more any better, necessary or less idiotic.

Ignore the specific players, it was just to show the difference in the worlds you and the clubs above you operate. You can't bring in a Varane type because of the wages and/or lack of title prospects, so you invest in players who could turn into a player like Varane. You're operating with a handicap in the transfer market, and that's - again - not an excuse for Arteta, it's the reality of where you stand right now as a club and have done for many years.

It was gradual improvement from the extremely low starting point he himself laid out last season. This season was the season the football should've improved, no club in existence ever gave a manager this long to improve without expecting results within 24 months. It's not a sequential task, you can both improve on the players you have while at the same time improve the football on show with the squad you have to work with.

The season where you bought 50% of your starting defenders, all young, plus a 22-year-old as your pivotal playmaker is not the season where everything should improve. It's the foundation being put in place, not the actual house.

And cut the "the tools he was given" horseshit, he spent massively on wages and old players on the likes of Auba Willian and Luiz before, got prime players in like Partey, wastes a 72m asset on the bench without even trying to implement him, tried or succeeded in extending big earners like Mustafi or Xhaka. He's the most indulged manager in world football and his sycophants make him out to be Jeanne d'Arc.

I'm not going to defend the monumental ****ups from Arteta and Edu in the transfer market in their early days, but it sort of highlights how recent this shift to investing in youth still is.

But if we want to be fair here, while Partey was definitely a player brought in in his prime, what happened afterwards was ****ing unlucky. Historically never injured, then turns into wet paper shortly after joining.

Again, I said I didn't expect **** from Arteta because I've seen enough to know better. Your whole stance is weird to me, so many interpolations, excuses, hypotheticals etc for a manager who literally has done nothing in his career but explain to the world how **** everyone he's had to work with is.

Why is every factual reason labelled as an excuse? I have admitted the football needs to improve, but everything I've said about budgets relative to the rest of the league is just objectively correct. I haven't even brought up what I feel is valid **** like the fact he had to deal with Covid lockdowns not even half a year into his first managerial job, basically turning the first year of him learning on the job into a ****show.

And I don't agree that he's done nothing. I think getting 5th this season was a solid result with everything taken into consideration. I would have said the same thing if it was any other manager except for Klopp maybe.
 

Trilly

Survived Aubamazette And Lived To Talk About It
Trusted ⭐
How did he underperform this season?
I do think there needs to be big improvement in the overall quality of play next season though FWIW when you have the ball,
🤦🏾‍♂️

Do you do anything other than come in here to defend Arteta?

You’ve given one of the reasons yourself, on top of that we got rid of players who may have been the difference. Sp**s have had Kane + Son for years now, I don’t know why they’ve suddenly become the de-facto excuse for why we bottled fourth.
 

jones

Not German FFS
Trusted ⭐
Højbjerg is a central part of both out NT's midfield and Sp**s. Sure he's somewhat limited but you could say that about most footballers, when used in a role that fits him he's really ****ing good. Skipp I just think is a solid footballer, nothing amazing but I'd say the same about someone like Xhaka. I like the balance of their midfield quite a bit after Bentancur was brought in, all 3 play well in Conte's system.
You've said it yourself, they look decent in Conte's system, the same players under Arteta would look relegation level, garner "brainless" insults on AM etc pp. Talent wise they're absolutely nothing special which was the point.
Of course fees matter, where did I say they didn't? But the fees mean little without context. Surely you can see the difference between spending £35m on a prospect vs. spending £35m on an established class player. The expectations are different, thus the expectations from the board towards Arteta are different.
Surely you can see that the only relevant context is how successful we are? Why is Arteta allowed to take 2.5 years until he delivers because of this so called youth project, when every other manager would've been sacked? Who decided that as a fan I'm to accept this decision that was made at some point in the last 12 months? Why did the board first sanction transfers and extensions like Willian Auba or David Luiz then turn around to change tact towards youth? And finally why does Arteta deserve to keep his job when there are better managers to take the next step in the development of these youngsters?
The figures I mentioned included Auba, Özil etc. You've been miles behind in wage spending for a long time. It's not an excuse, it's genuinely just a fact and wage expenditure is the most consistent predictor in outcome in terms of points.

The transfer fees play a big part too of course, but you've invested those fees in the future and you're judging Arteta on the here and now. There's a discrepancy there, no?

Ignore the specific players, it was just to show the difference in the worlds you and the clubs above you operate. You can't bring in a Varane type because of the wages and/or lack of title prospects, so you invest in players who could turn into a player like Varane. You're operating with a handicap in the transfer market, and that's - again - not an excuse for Arteta, it's the reality of where you stand right now as a club and have done for many years.
The English Premier League is a competition of clubs with some of the most idiotic owners and CEOs in the world. Forget about clubs like QPR or Bournemouth who spend as much as top clubs on the continent and get relegated for their efforts or the obvious big one in United who spend like no one's business while achieving **** all - why would I look at everyone failing around me and think to myself it's fine to do the same?

We were financially handicapped for years and while we fell short often we at least competed most seasons, my own hometown club has gone from facing relegation to two major trophies and CL football within six years. There's absolutely zero reason to just look at wages spent by others and ourselves when everyone here is taking the piss out of our competition and the garbage they spend their money on.
The season where you bought 50% of your starting defenders, all young, plus a 22-year-old as your pivotal playmaker is not the season where everything should improve. It's the foundation being put in place, not the actual house.
Again, no one forced Arteta to do any of that. He himself showed in the past that he's free to spend just as much money on old players with no resale value, so if he wants to handicap himself by having mostly kids in the lineup that's on him. And as I said before, these aren't academy products with no chance of going anywhere, they are highly rated talents that cost a ****ing bomb.
I'm not going to defend the monumental ****ups from Arteta and Edu in the transfer market in their early days, but it sort of highlights how recent this shift to investing in youth still is.
See you're wrong even here imo. I didn't like the Willian signing but I wasn't especially critical of it, he looked more than serviceable at Chelsea the season before. The reasoning behind signing someone like that to share playing time with Pepe and Saka would've been fine. Genuinely no idea however how it's possible to see that both old and young players look **** most of the time under the coach and somehow blame it all on the players.
But if we want to be fair here, while Partey was definitely a player brought in in his prime, what happened afterwards was ****ing unlucky. Historically never injured, then turns into wet paper shortly after joining.
That's the only reasonable point I'm seeing in this post. Transfers can work out or not, often they don't because the player's quality isn't sufficient, often because they can't adapt to a new setup, team mates or country, sometimes the coach is to blame for not being able to maximise their strengths and sometimes it's just luck or other factors. Seeing how the vast majority of our transfers aren't working out you have to start suspecting the manager.
Why is every factual reason labelled as an excuse? I have admitted the football needs to improve, but everything I've said about budgets relative to the rest of the league is just objectively correct. I haven't even brought up what I feel is valid **** like the fact he had to deal with Covid lockdowns not even half a year into his first managerial job, basically turning the first year of him learning on the job into a ****show.
"Everything about budgets is objectively correct" except no one ever talked about budgets. What's relevant to assess a manager's performance isn't a balance sheet and that of the competition, it's to look at the team he works with and considering whether he's getting the best out of them. He just blatantly isn't.

And really, mentioning covid lockdowns which everyone went through and you wonder why you look like you're making excuses? The only reason we're having a discussion right now is because every point I'm making is met with diversion from the actual job description - coaching and managing - to intangible nonsense about wage budgets, expectations from young players or imagined ****ing handicaps in the transfer market.
 

grange

Losing my brain cells 🥸
Some cheek to talk about not making sense then follow it up with this car crash of a post.

Either you're being disingenuous or your reading ability is in the gutter. Maybe finish high school first before you try to have a conversation with me.
More useless insults from the grandpa.
 

Trilly

Survived Aubamazette And Lived To Talk About It
Trusted ⭐

How do you type out "drafts are saved from last season" without realising there might be something to it
🤣🤣
When we hired Arteta it was a gamble: he could turn out to be a top manager or he could turn out to be one of the hundreds of average ones out there. There’s no shame in that either, that’s just life.

His greatest achievement is convincing everyone that he’s one of the top ones with zero supporting evidence. You’re labelled as ridiculous for suggesting that the gamble failed, they back him as if he’s won trophies elsewhere and just needs time at Arsenal.
 

jones

Not German FFS
Trusted ⭐
🤣🤣
When we hired Arteta it was a gamble: he could turn out to be a top manager or he could turn out to be one of the hundreds of average ones out there. There’s no shame in that either, that’s just life.

His greatest achievement is convincing everyone that he’s one of the top ones with zero supporting evidence. You’re labelled as ridiculous for suggesting that the gamble failed, they back him as if he’s won trophies elsewhere and just needs time at Arsenal.
Worse still, you see fans quick to label players who actually showed a high level of performance elsewhere garbage while backing him to the hilt with the only thing to show for endorsements by Raheem Sterling and Pappy New Year Guardiola.
 

vantoure

Well-Known Member
Worse still, you see fans quick to label players who actually showed a high level of performance elsewhere garbage while backing him to the hilt with the only thing to show for endorsements by Raheem Sterling and Pappy New Year Guardiola.
it's excruciating to see to be honest.

lost the stomach for the "argument" way back, yet everytime i drag myself here, I see his followers have found innovative ways to defend him time after time
 

DJ_Markstar

Established Member
I think we're just miles apart on how we rate both your squad and the teams around/below you tbh. I think Tottenham have a better central midfield than you (exacerbated by fitness issues) as I really rate Højbjerg, Skipp and Bentancur, and they're on a different planet with their attacking options. I think you're better at the back though.

I'm honestly a bit tired of the finances debate. When people simply won't acknowledge the full picture and just keep shouting about transfer fees, I don't know what to say. Yes, you've invested heavily, but your wage bill is still MILES behind the top teams and the money you have invested have been invested in the prospect of future development, not the here and now. With some of the arguments on here you'd think you brought in world class players, but we all know the investment have been made with the idea that they develop into players that will end up being more valuable than the fee in the long run. I just can't argue anything on good faith when people won't recognize the actual finances involved here. You're still literally 30% or so behind in wage budget to the top 4 clubs (Man Utd included here), and people should know just how much that is.

You're basically overpaying in fees for the potential of developing world class talent on acceptable wages, while the 4 clubs above you in spending are just outright signing world class players. You sign Ben White, Man Utd sign Varane etc.

As I've said before in this thread, what's important with Arteta is seeing gradual improvement as that is the tools he's been given by the investment in youth. To me, getting 5th this year was gradual improvement. Next season, the football needs to improve. If it doesn't, that's when I'll start worrying.

But expecting top 4 when that is nowhere near the expected outcome given the tools at his/Arsenal's disposal just seem ****ing weird to me. Last season was definitely a missed chance, I'll give you that, but it also just highlights how you're basically "Man Utd getting their **** in order" away from probably not sniffing top 4 until one of the other 3 clubs **** the bed.
Always rated your posts, and this one is more or less how I feel as well.

I think this squad is getting very nice now, he's signing a lot of very good players at good ages so the wage bill will naturally increase as success increases, as it should be.
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Trusted ⭐

Player: Saliba
Wenger's trend was a very gradual downward dip (from a high peak).
That’s a lie. Wenger’s trend was:

a) fantastic 8 year period when he had cash to spend, invincible even
b) unbelievable 9 year period of continuous top 4 when he had nothing to spend on players.
c) steady 3year improvement when the purse strings slackened 4th to 3rd to 2nd + 2 cups.
d) rapid two year decline when the rants, planes, boycotts and stadium protest turned Arsenal toxic.

Tell me I’m wrong!
 

Dokaka

AM's resident Hammer
🤦🏾‍♂️

Do you do anything other than come in here to defend Arteta?

You’ve given one of the reasons yourself, on top of that we got rid of players who may have been the difference. Sp**s have had Kane + Son for years now, I don’t know why they’ve suddenly become the de-facto excuse for why we bottled fourth.

Mate I haven't posted in this thread for over a month. Look at my post history and stop being a **** for no reason. Whenever someone comes into this thread with a different opinion than "lol arteta lego man toaster with pulse bad" it gets ridiculed by the same group of people over and over, throwing the same garbage labels towards them for seemingly the only reason that they have a different opinion on the ability of a manager.

The fact that I pop in here after not posting a single thing about Arteta in over a month and you respond with that **** pretty much underlines that point.

You've said it yourself, they look decent in Conte's system, the same players under Arteta would look relegation level, garner "brainless" insults on AM etc pp. Talent wise they're absolutely nothing special which was the point.

Surely you can see that the only relevant context is how successful we are? Why is Arteta allowed to take 2.5 years until he delivers because of this so called youth project, when every other manager would've been sacked? Who decided that as a fan I'm to accept this decision that was made at some point in the last 12 months? Why did the board first sanction transfers and extensions like Willian Auba or David Luiz then turn around to change tact towards youth? And finally why does Arteta deserve to keep his job when there are better managers to take the next step in the development of these youngsters?

The English Premier League is a competition of clubs with some of the most idiotic owners and CEOs in the world. Forget about clubs like QPR or Bournemouth who spend as much as top clubs on the continent and get relegated for their efforts or the obvious big one in United who spend like no one's business while achieving **** all - why would I look at everyone failing around me and think to myself it's fine to do the same?

We were financially handicapped for years and while we fell short often we at least competed most seasons, my own hometown club has gone from facing relegation to two major trophies and CL football within six years. There's absolutely zero reason to just look at wages spent by others and ourselves when everyone here is taking the piss out of our competition and the garbage they spend their money on.

Again, no one forced Arteta to do any of that. He himself showed in the past that he's free to spend just as much money on old players with no resale value, so if he wants to handicap himself by having mostly kids in the lineup that's on him. And as I said before, these aren't academy products with no chance of going anywhere, they are highly rated talents that cost a ****ing bomb.

See you're wrong even here imo. I didn't like the Willian signing but I wasn't especially critical of it, he looked more than serviceable at Chelsea the season before. The reasoning behind signing someone like that to share playing time with Pepe and Saka would've been fine. Genuinely no idea however how it's possible to see that both old and young players look **** most of the time under the coach and somehow blame it all on the players.

That's the only reasonable point I'm seeing in this post. Transfers can work out or not, often they don't because the player's quality isn't sufficient, often because they can't adapt to a new setup, team mates or country, sometimes the coach is to blame for not being able to maximise their strengths and sometimes it's just luck or other factors. Seeing how the vast majority of our transfers aren't working out you have to start suspecting the manager.

"Everything about budgets is objectively correct" except no one ever talked about budgets. What's relevant to assess a manager's performance isn't a balance sheet and that of the competition, it's to look at the team he works with and considering whether he's getting the best out of them. He just blatantly isn't.

And really, mentioning covid lockdowns which everyone went through and you wonder why you look like you're making excuses? The only reason we're having a discussion right now is because every point I'm making is met with diversion from the actual job description - coaching and managing - to intangible nonsense about wage budgets, expectations from young players or imagined ****ing handicaps in the transfer market.

It's probably better we agree to disagree here as we're almost on different planets with our opinions here :lol:

But to be clear, I don't think the current version of Arteta is good enough to be the long term solution, but I think I just put more weight on his lack of experience than many on here and see that as room to grow and learn from his mistakes. The football needs to become good to watch as a bare minimum, starting next season. I can understand patience is running thin for some people - the lack of emotional investment I have in Arsenal probably helps me be more patient in that aspect.

Thank you for taking the time to write proper replies though and not just repeating the same variation of "huehue dok wants to bang lego man he bad".
 
Last edited:

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Trusted ⭐

Player: Saliba
it's excruciating to see to be honest.

lost the stomach for the "argument" way back, yet everytime i drag myself here, I see his followers have found innovative ways to defend him time after time
It’s the same old **** on here. Posters making up bollocks about Wenger and Emery yet twisting facts to praise a manager who needs 4 attempts and a mountain of money to try and get into the top 4 just once.
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Trusted ⭐

Player: Saliba
🤦🏾‍♂️

Do you do anything other than come in here to defend Arteta?

You’ve given one of the reasons yourself, on top of that we got rid of players who may have been the difference. Sp**s have had Kane + Son for years now, I don’t know why they’ve suddenly become the de-facto excuse for why we bottled fourth.
Really surprised there aren’t supporters from other clubs coming in here to persuade us to keep Arteta. :lol:
 

Arsenal Quotes

Arsenal are the most beautiful club in England. At Man City and Chelsea, they will never have that class and style.

Marco van Basten
Top