Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[lomekian]

It's up to Arteta to change the perception of the club. We are seen as the foreign English club as we had the first notable foreign manager and we put out an all foreign team. However the perception over the years went from being that to both foreign and soft. The cresswell tackle on Pepe is a perfect example of that. We need more strength and fight in our team. Not personalities who will simply shake the opponents hand after they foul us.

Arteta needs to call out the referring more frequently and highlight the fact that we are suffering from decisions. How does it make sense that we are the worst disciplined team when we make the least fouls? How many of our fouls are bad fouls? Our players can barely get there to make tackle.

All comes back to the way referees are run in England. Its like a secret society run by Mike Riley (remember him, the man who gave Man U penalties every 2 games), with no external accountability and absolutely zero transparency. Lots of ex refs, including former refereeing bosses are very critical, but nothing changes. Hence we see 60% of all refs from 3 English counties (the ones with which Riley has affiliation), and Arsenal getting Atkinson as ref or VAR guy almost 3 times as much as any other ref.

Of course bias, both conscious and unconscious will always exist, and we aren't helped by the composition and affiliations of current refs, but system is also deeply suspect. Add in the hangerover effects of a generation suspicious of foreigners that make up the older refs, not to mention anti-London tendancies and the rise of Brexit thinking, and there's a lot going on.

Every study undertaken in the last 15 years (including one quickly suppressed academic one) shows Arsenal get more bad and marginal calls go against them year on year than any other big club.

 

[Dokaka]

Arteta needs to call out the referring more frequently and highlight the fact that we are suffering from decisions. How does it make sense that we are the worst disciplined team when we make the least fouls? How many of our fouls are bad fouls? Our players can barely get there to make tackle.

I think some of it is down to a lot of the fouls being pretty cynical under Arteta (which is fine, but they're easy to book) to stop a counter etc.

More prototypical "physical" teams get called for a ton of fouls but the vast majority of them are for quite minor offenses like a slight shove in a non-dangerous situation while trying to win the ball etc. Your fouls (especially under Arteta) tend to be cynical shirt pulls and deliberate trips after you lose possession, which is really easy to throw a yellow after as it's a textbook booking.

So I don't think it's a case of "bad fouls" (I assume you mean malicious in this context), as I don't think you commit a lot of those, but I 100% think you commit a lot of intentional fouls to halt play.

 

[TromsoGooner]

I think some of it is down to a lot of the fouls being pretty cynical under Arteta (which is fine, but they're easy to book) to stop a counter etc.

More prototypical "physical" teams get called for a ton of fouls but the vast majority of them are for quite minor offenses like a slight shove in a non-dangerous situation while trying to win the ball etc. Your fouls (especially under Arteta) tend to be cynical shirt pulls and deliberate trips after you lose possession, which is really easy to throw a yellow after as it's a textbook booking.

So I don't think it's a case of "bad fouls" (I assume you mean malicious in this context), as I don't think you commit a lot of those, but I 100% think you commit a lot of intentional fouls to halt play.

Was the same under Emery though and we certainly didn`t commit many tactical fouls then, our unwillinges to do so was actually pointed out by many.

 

[El Duderino]

Can't wait for my Arsène book to get here once it launches.

 

[The_Playmaker]

I think some of it is down to a lot of the fouls being pretty cynical under Arteta (which is fine, but they're easy to book) to stop a counter etc.

More prototypical "physical" teams get called for a ton of fouls but the vast majority of them are for quite minor offenses like a slight shove in a non-dangerous situation while trying to win the ball etc. Your fouls (especially under Arteta) tend to be cynical shirt pulls and deliberate trips after you lose possession, which is really easy to throw a yellow after as it's a textbook booking.

So I don't think it's a case of "bad fouls" (I assume you mean malicious in this context), as I don't think you commit a lot of those, but I 100% think you commit a lot of intentional fouls to halt play.

Arsenal are 14th in the league table of most fouls committed. As much as we may commit cynical fouls, they are no where near the level of teams that clearly have a rotational fouling system.

Think about when Xhaka got sent off for that trip on the half way line. That sending off was never given before Xhaka, and it hasn't been given since after.


I mean come on. That's outrageous. If that was any other team the referee probably would have joked around with the player or gave them a yellow at the most.

 

[GoonerJeeves]

Still can't believe so many decisions going against us Maybe we feel we are the most affected because we watch ourselves more than other teams but I feel we definitely would have been in CL places for better refs. Vardy red in that first half would have changed the game completely.

Considering how its been since 1997...you shouldn't be surprised. Sam Allardyce's Bolton kicked lumps out of us with ****s like Graham Poll doing their best audition for Specsavers ads.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Emery had us interested for a bit, even if we could all tell results were exceeding performances. But the collapse and rotation decisions at the end of the season were big alarms. This season Emery lost the plot in a major way. Its the only time I've ever watched an Arsenal side, and couldn't even work out what the team was trying to do. Even the season George Graham got sacked there was a vague plan. The last 2 months under Emery were just a waste of everyone's time, and Arteta's still trying to repair the damage.

Personally I would say the Emery period was a waste of time from the start, I was distraught when we hired him and the good results at the beginning were really just a good run of luck and results far exceeding performance, a bit like the run we had at the beginning of 2013-14 with Wenger.

That's also why it's important to pay attention to the underlying performance levels not just the results, and there's definitely some question about Arteta's underlying performance levels and tactics early on. People say that he's picking up a disaster of a club from Emery, which is true, but the flip side of that argument is that he's picking up a very, very low bar and thus with just competent management you would expect significant gains in terms of performance level and results. We've seen gains but I don't know about significant ones.

Either way, there's just too much we don't know with such a rare case of a manager like Arteta who doesn't have any previous managerial experience, picking up in such rare situations after a disastrous managerial hire and another manager who was out of his depth tactically for a while before too. So we all certainly can agree that we need to see what Arteta's Arsenal is like after a full pre-season and less extraordinary circumstances with covid and all, and I think we can also all agree that Arteta's effect on the club in terms of the things he's saying and the way he's galvanised the dressing room is quite positive.

 

[MutableEarth]

Personally I would say the Emery period was a waste of time from the start, I was distraught when we hired him and the good results at the beginning were really just a good run of luck and results far exceeding performance, a bit like the run we had at the beginning of 2013-14 with Wenger.

That's also why it's important to pay attention to the underlying performance levels not just the results, and there's definitely some question about Arteta's underlying performance levels and tactics early on. People say that he's picking up a disaster of a club from Emery, which is true, but the flip side of that argument is that he's picking up a very, very low bar and thus with just competent management you would expect significant gains in terms of performance level and results. We've seen gains but I don't know about significant ones.

Either way, there's just too much we don't know with such a rare case of a manager like Arteta who doesn't have any previous managerial experience, picking up in such rare situations after a disastrous managerial hire and another manager who was out of his depth tactically for a while before too. So we all certainly can agree that we need to see what Arteta's Arsenal is like after a full pre-season and less extraordinary circumstances with covid and all, and I think we can also all agree that Arteta's effect on the club in terms of the things he's saying and the way he's galvanised the dressing room is quite positive.

I think you're just a bit underestimating how badly built this squad currently is. Not to say there isn't talent, but the overall team is filled with players who don't complement each other and profiles in defence, midfield and attack that severely lack in important departments. There's a distinct lack of pure technical and athletic quality throughout - most of that quality is coming from the younger, less experienced players who are not at their best level yet. Arteta has done a very decent job in mitigating those factors and making it work. It's not been perfect at all and I think we should continue to be cautious, but so far - considering it's his first job - I'm optimistic.

 

[Dokaka]

Arsenal are 14th in the league table of most fouls committed. As much as we may commit cynical fouls, they are no where near the level of teams that clearly have a rotational fouling system.

Think about when Xhaka got sent off for that trip on the half way line. That sending off was never given before Xhaka, and it hasn't been given since after.


I mean come on. That's outrageous. If that was any other team the referee probably would have joked around with the player or gave them a yellow at the most.

I'm not arguing that you haven't been unfairly disciplined at times, to be clear. You probably have been, given I've seen the same sentiment echoed by people like Arseblog etc. who tend to be pretty level-headed. I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here.

My only argument really is your style of play kind of results in a weirdly high "cards per foul" ratio as you aren't chasing the ball all game like a ****e team (like us ) making minor fouls constantly because you're trying to win possession, but rather chasing players on the backfoot as many of your tackles happen in situations where you're trying to stop a break.

There's probably something to the idea of Arsenal being seen as an "easy" team to discipline - for the same reasons many teams see you as an easy team to bully physically - but that's obviously very difficult to quantify. Arteta calling out the hypocrisy will probably help and he should definitely do that. Every horrendous inconsistency should be highlighted so the consistency improves.

 

[Mrs Bergkamp]

Arsenal are 14th in the league table of most fouls committed. As much as we may commit cynical fouls, they are no where near the level of teams that clearly have a rotational fouling system.

Think about when Xhaka got sent off for that trip on the half way line. That sending off was never given before Xhaka, and it hasn't been given since after.


I mean come on. That's outrageous. If that was any other team the referee probably would have joked around with the player or gave them a yellow at the most.

Look at all our fouls as well. How many can you recall have resulted in the opponent being injured? A cynical tug of the shirt is one thing but our players suffer career affecting injuries with little or no punishment given to the perpetrator.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

The cresswell tackle on Pepe is a perfect example of that.

That he go away with that tackle just says it all. That could easily have been Pepe's career ending than and there. Did he even get a yellow?

What gets me is that with VAR it actually hasn't gotten better but worse. Now we get penalised more often but the opposition doesn't. Just one more way for the FA and PL refs to screw us over.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

Arsenal are 14th in the league table of most fouls committed. As much as we may commit cynical fouls, they are no where near the level of teams that clearly have a rotational fouling system.

Think about when Xhaka got sent off for that trip on the half way line. That sending off was never given before Xhaka, and it hasn't been given since after.


I mean come on. That's outrageous. If that was any other team the referee probably would have joked around with the player or gave them a yellow at the most.

I was so angry with Xhaka after that one, giving the ref a chance to send him off, but to be honest no way is that a red card. That is Jonathan Moss doing what he always wants to do. ****ing **** of a man!

 

[dashsnow17]

Arsenal are 14th in the league table of most fouls committed. As much as we may commit cynical fouls, they are no where near the level of teams that clearly have a rotational fouling system.

Think about when Xhaka got sent off for that trip on the half way line. That sending off was never given before Xhaka, and it hasn't been given since after.


I mean come on. That's outrageous. If that was any other team the referee probably would have joked around with the player or gave them a yellow at the most.

What the actual F*CK ahah. I'd forgotten about that. It's actually hilarious how that's a red card, it's a textbook yellow card ffs.

 

[Oxeki]

Arsenal are 14th in the league table of most fouls committed. As much as we may commit cynical fouls, they are no where near the level of teams that clearly have a rotational fouling system.

Think about when Xhaka got sent off for that trip on the half way line. That sending off was never given before Xhaka, and it hasn't been given since after.


I mean come on. That's outrageous. If that was any other team the referee probably would have joked around with the player or gave them a yellow at the most.

I remember Jordan Ayew making a few fouls like this against us vs Crystal palace and the referee didn't even card him ffs.

Pathetic how we get screwed by referees time and time again. Infact I think VAR hasn't come to improve match officiation but it has come to give this sh!te calls some sort of 'legitimacy'

 

[14Henry]

Ignoring since the restart, Arsenal were shown earlier in the season to be 8 or 9 points down due to incorrect VAR decisions.

No they weren't. Because we also were credited goals for us that had initially been given offside for example Auba v United (how the linesman missed that il never know). You cant just look at the negative value without looking at the decision we were given through VAR. We are about 2-3 points worse off for VAR. Nothing more.

 

[14Henry]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.es...fected-every-premier-league-club?platform=amp

For those that think VAR has cost us a load of points.

 

[lomekian]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/soccer/english-premier-league/story/3929823/how-var-decisions-have-affected-every-premier-league-club?platform=amp

For those that think VAR has cost us a load of points.

I'm not sure that article shows what you think it does....it only shows decisions overturned by VAR and still ignores some. It doesn't show the slew of massive ****-ups earlier in the season where VAR looked at incidents and got the decisions wrong, or where referees intervened to stop play for offsides before VAR could be engaged, or where VAR failed to look at decisions that were clearly wrong.

I can't remember exactly, but thats 3 or 4 pens not given which should have been in tight games, and failed red cards for opponents. I really can't be arsed going through them all, but this article is the opposite of proof.

VAR is closer to where it needs to be now, but its still only at the place it should have been at the start of the season, where its current mistakes would be the teething problems.

 

[lomekian]

No they weren't. Because we also were credited goals for us that had initially been given offside for example Auba v United (how the linesman missed that il never know). You cant just look at the negative value without looking at the decision we were given through VAR. We are about 2-3 points worse off for VAR. Nothing more.

We're actually talking about separate things. I'm talking about having the starting point is that VAR gets factual decisions right. I'm not comparing VAR to the absence of VAR, I've already said I'm pro VAR just not its implementation to date. So I'm not counting that offside as a plus, because it was a clear and obvious VAR decision. I'm talking about the times VAR has been applied incorrectly or not applied when it should have been.

 

[14Henry]

I'm not sure that article shows what you think it does....it only shows decisions overturned by VAR and still ignores some. It doesn't show the slew of massive ****-ups earlier in the season where VAR looked at incidents and got the decisions wrong, or where referees intervened to stop play for offsides before VAR could be engaged, or where VAR failed to look at decisions that were clearly wrong.

I can't remember exactly, but thats 3 or 4 pens not given which should have been in tight games, and failed red cards for opponents. I really can't be arsed going through them all, but this article is the opposite of proof.

VAR is closer to where it needs to be now, but its still only at the place it should have been at the start of the season, where its current mistakes would be the teething problems.

What I am saying is where you say VAR got decisions wrong which cost us points you arent recognising when VAR got the decisions right which gained us points.

So it's a balancing act. Theres been tons of decisions wrong both with refs and VAR that's affecting clubs.

Was Kanes a penalty yesterday. Yes
Was Fernandes a penalty. No.

We are in 7th/8th because that's where we deserve to be. To look at refs or var or bad luck is trying to ignore the obvious. We havent been good enough and that's on the managers and players.

 

[lomekian]

I was so angry with Xhaka after that one, giving the ref a chance to send him off, but to be honest no way is that a red card. That is Jonathan Moss doing what he always wants to do. ****ing **** of a man!

I think that was the 3rd time in 3 seasons where Arsenal suffered through a particular interpretation of a rule change that has never been applied in the same way since.

But then I don't know if Moss is biased, because he's just a very very poor referee who should be nowhere near the top flight. Guy can't keep up with play at all so guesses a lot of his decisions from positions where he doesn't have a clear view.

He's not like Phil Dowd who was abusive to players and always reffed the English players differently, or like Mike Riley who was the most pro Man U ref I've ever seen year after year. Jon Moss is just a bad ref.

Its not just bias. I mean we never get a damn thing out of Michael Oliver, and we have a v poor record with him in charge, but he's still one of the best refs we have (though his level has dropped a bit in the last 18 months for me). Some of the newer ones coming through are a bit more consistent.