Mikel Arteta: Serial Trophy Winner?

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by OnlyOne, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. 14Henry

    14Henry Well-Known Member

    Of course we get closer. I'm not saying that an extra 4 points isnt welcome. What I'm saying is I dont want us as fans to get on this.....we are where we are because of VAR. I want fan focus to be on the deficiencies of the team.

    I want the players and the coach to be responsible for the outcomes. As I said had the team actually done what they should have against Leciester Eddie's red is irrelevant.

    And too many times this season we have been flat or afraid or unable to kill teams off and that is the reason we are were we are. We also have too many players making too many silly decisions. Eddie's was one. We cant say well Jonny Evan's made 8 fouls so it's ok if Eddie snaps into a challenge. The bottom line is Eddie made a poor challenge. Over eager. Which is potentially cost us 3 points.

    Lacazette straying offside and not looking the line. School boy stuff. Cost us 3 points.

    Poor finishing cost us 3 points and you could look at every match we lost this season or dropped points and find a million faults before we would even consider VAR.

    Again I am not saying it's ok for VAR to get things wrong or be used wrong. I'm merely saying that when you have displayed the mistakes we have as a team we should be focusing on them and not trying to say we have been robbed 7-8 points which is what the original poster said to which i replied back.
  2. CaseUteinberger

    CaseUteinberger Cazorla (not Carzola ffs)

    Makes 100% sense to blow hot air up Mourinho’s backside and praise him and his squad. Many coaches talk up their opposition before games. It lowers outside expectations on you end and build them up on the other side. Plus in Mourinho’s case it doesn’t give him a chance to create more bunker mentality.

    Plus in honesty, what is Arteta to do? He is a new coach that hasn’t won anything, coming up against a manager that has a lot, and I mean a lot of trophies. I hate Mourinho as much as anyone, but he has had success. That can be acknowledged and respected without being a sycophant.
    yorch44 likes this.
  3. Taneruit

    Taneruit Well-Known Member

    EinmalImmerEwig likes this.
  4. Manberg

    Manberg Predator

    What team doesn’t make mistakes? Football is more often than not defined by fine margins. We’re not an exceptional side that could consistently win against 12 men. Referees doing their jobs properly by booking yellow cards for the correct fouls makes a huge difference. If a player is on a yellow card he will be cautious when going in for future tackles.
  5. lomekian

    lomekian Well-Known Member

    @14Henry I think the point is that it isn't a binary issue. Arsenal being utter crap and devoid of confidence Oct-Dec is obviously a bigger determiner of league position than bad refs BUT bad refs have resulted in the team having an artificially low points total.

    I agree that the greater focus has to be on the team's improvement, particularly as there is nothing we can do about referees incompetence / bias, but that doesn't mean the litany of officiating errors that cost us points year after year should be ignored. I don't think anyone uses it to excuse the team's failings (perhaps except the 50th game and RVP red vs Barca both of which were totally bent refereeing displays that dictated the outcome to an extraordinary degree), but seeing the same stuff year after year after year is not something we have to be happy with.

    The bottom line is there are some refs at EPL level who are simply not fit for purpose, and they are all also VAR refs, so the get to double down on that incompetence, rather than the system which is designed to reduce refereeing errors being allowed to do so to an acceptable level.
    CaseUteinberger likes this.
  6. 14Henry

    14Henry Well-Known Member

    So you believe that the FA and referees have an agenda against Arsenal. If you say there is a bias why do you believe that referees will give us things that should be given and not give us things that should be given.

    I'm not saying your wrong. I'm asking why would Arsenal be targeted by the FA and refs in this way? What is in it for them and why us?
  7. Monstar-Gunn4r

    Monstar-Gunn4r Well-Known Member

    Very few people believe that the referees and fa have an agenda against Arsenal. Many people and the statistics believe this that there is a clear bias in officiating and refereeing, not just for Arsenal, there are other teams who suffer or benefit from clear bias.

    Mike Riley probably likes Utd given his previous officiating he is now in charge of the premier league refs. What happens is that if you make a mistake against Utd it matters a lot more than any other team, you don't get the better or more high profile matches and you get more matches in championship instead etc. It seems to happen a lot that if it is any way debatable give the decision to Utd and it will be ignored, get a decision wrong against Utd and it will be a big deal.

    What is likely happening is that no current referee likes Arsenal but a few dislike Arsenal. When you have a referee officiating a match and openly celebrating one of the teams getting goals etc. it is no surprise that the referees in the premiership are not regarded as anything but biased. There are a few decent refs but they are far and few in between and as I pointed it out if you decide wrong against someone like Utd rather than Arsenal you are inclined to suffer.

    Arsenal historically in my opinion has suffered due to a number of things, in Europe we're seen as an English club and in England we're seen as a European /French or non-Enlgish club. We've nearly always had a more diverse team than others, weren't we the first team to play a fully non-English first 11? Added ot that we were by and far a much more technical and just ebtter team so the idea was you had to kick us and that was okay, what other team comes close to their players getting their legs broken? Even now Pepe is lucky to be walking.

    Var has really brought the bias in to the light because previously was the excuse they could only look at it once... but now why are their decisions so inconsistent and just generally bad???

    In short its easy to make a bad decision against Arsenal because it wont matter when it comes to getting the better matches and referees have a general disdain for us historically and many of them have clear bias for their favorite teams.
    SA Gunner and Hunta like this.
  8. Hunta

    Hunta Shivering Right Now Trusted

    I know for example that Mike Dean who ‘supports’ Tranmere comes from a family of Liverpool supporters.

    He’s been ref in 10 of their league games this season.
    Riou, SingmeasongSong and Tir Na Nog like this.
  9. 14Henry

    14Henry Well-Known Member

    If there is so much compelling evidence as you say would you not think that the higher powers at Arsenal would bring this to the attention and ask questions? Arsenal arent and havent been a title rival for a long time. We are also not fighting relegation. We are in an area of just being around the top 6. We are not really a threat to many teams. Hence why I find it difficult to think that the referees and FA are sitting at home saying if you want to send someone from Arsenal off tomorrow when it's like an "orange" card no problem.

    Now if Kane gets a penalty for the exact same thing that happened against Bourenmouth the other day ( which should have been a penalty) I will accept you have a point.
  10. Ashybashy86

    Ashybashy86 Well-Known Member

    Have you not wondered why Tarkowski commited an even worse foul than Eddie and only got a yellow? The ref wasn't told to check the monitor. When they want to penalise our players, they scrutinise at every possible angle.

    How did Leicester City players commit so many fouls - one even endangering Mustafi - and no cards shown. There have been several instances, but this one was the most recent and very blatant bias.
    CaseUteinberger likes this.
  11. SingmeasongSong

    SingmeasongSong Rarely Right

    Didn't know you're an Arteta out kinda guy @Hunta

    Who do you want ?
  12. Hunta

    Hunta Shivering Right Now Trusted

    sdotzdot likes this.
  13. SingmeasongSong

    SingmeasongSong Rarely Right

    Like you man and I'm not sure you are playing me here, but.. Mourinho, of all people?? :eek:

    The guy's finished imo, which isn't taking away anything from his past success though.
  14. Taneruit

    Taneruit Well-Known Member

    Have you watched Sp**s or everything after his first United season?
    What gives you hope that he's still got it?
  15. EinmalImmerEwig

    EinmalImmerEwig Only Wants British Players At Arsenal

    The FA have always had an agenda against The Arsenal, starting from a hundred years ago.
    It started when we were the team from London in an otherwise northern and midlands based league, and everyone from 'up north' had - and still has - a London Complex.
    They don't like it up 'em, Southern Softies, etc., etc

    And we are THE team from London.

    In the seventies and then the eighties we had black players in our team, and were multi-cultural, from the fan base to the team.
    Wenger then came in and cleaned up the english game, from being beer-swilling yobs ( from the Board down to the fans ) he tried to make football more sophisticated, changed the diets, banned drinking, and got rid of players who flaunted those rules.
    Buying only french players ( when the little englanders still have a problem with the french ), and then being Invincibles also ruffled the feathers of the beer-drinking, racist, northern FA scum.
    The first team with an all-foreign first eleven, fielding 9 black players against dirty fascist Leeds, trying to play football in a more refined way, as opposed to the physical, combative english style, the list of reasons why the FA and referees hate The Arsenal is endless.

    We are THE Arsenal and we are the best, we are THE Arsenal, and really, really, really **** all the rest!
  16. 14Henry

    14Henry Well-Known Member

    Why are referees bias against Arsenal? What do they have to gain?
  17. Macho

    Macho Well-Known Member

    I think it’s more that we don’t show any real anguish or crowd the ref like some other teams do/or have done which defo effects referee decision making. I doubt there’s this agenda against Arsenal we just lack fight at times.

    Remember when Leno got clattered against Brighton and half the team wasn’t even interested.

    but looking at the below it does seem they are lenient with other clubs

    Squillaci and CaseUteinberger like this.
  18. lomekian

    lomekian Well-Known Member

    No, I don't believe that. I believe that referees by virtue of being human all have elements of bias, and that it is accentuated by the referee selection process and geographical spread and the lack of transparancy and accountability of referees.

    I believe there have been biased referees at times (Mike Riley...), but the greater impact is 1) lack of consequence for errors re Arsenal vs say Man U where Fergie basically stockholmed a generation of refs - don't know how he had so much sway, but when he complained about a ref, that ref was kept away from Man U for a while, in some cases for months at a time. No idea why, but certain clubs genuinely held sway in referee selection.
    2) Arsenal are an easy target for ego refs like Mike Dean who want to get the spotlight....Super popular team, but not leading lights of English football in Europe, not intimidating fans, no genuinely scary players.

    I do also believe with the older generation of refs, 'Britishness' came / comes into it. Arsenal were a 'foreign' team before the others, and its been shown plenty of times that established England internationals get an easier ride with refs in England. Hence why Scholes could go around maiming people and get off with a chuckle and 'he can't tackle', but in international and European competition he had a much worse disciplinary record despite attempting to play a less physically aggressive style.

    Its a really complex thing to unpick, and I doubt there is an conscious systemic bias, but rather a combination of small prejudices and incompetence without accountability. A bit like racism in society. Most people who apply discriminatory attitudes are not consciously racist and would be mortified if proven to have applied racist thinking - a la the studies of US primary school teachers, who consciously try not to be racist but still are observed to watch black kids when looking for trouble far more than white kids.
    CaseUteinberger likes this.
  19. lomekian

    lomekian Well-Known Member

    Remember last year, when Kane got a penalty for being fouled despite being offside, where the official decided that he was fouled before he was active, despite the fact that it was his offside position that even put him in a position to be fouled.

    3rd or 4th year in a row when an official applied a law to Arsenal's detriment in a way that it has never been applied in another match in England. And of course fundamentally incorrect.

    re your other point, I've been told more than once that either Arsène or Arsenal started compiling a dossier of sorts, but the match officials group unique position of autonomy without transparency meant there was no external body to appeal to and no process that would allow the info to be seen unless it was leaked. The decision was made that effectively accusing the referee body of either cheating, woeful inconsistency or incompetence when they have such an impact on future games would be counter productive.

    We;ve seen it before. After Wenger had a pop at the useless Anthony Taylor after mistakes 3 games in the same season, Taylor started to screw us with much greater regularity and our win ratio under him plummeted.

    The problem all comes back to the system. There is no one to complain to about anything other than the people responsible.
    EinmalImmerEwig likes this.
  20. lomekian

    lomekian Well-Known Member


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