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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
Wenger just had a different philosophy.
He built comprehensive units that micromanaged themselves on the pitch and if this works properly those units can adjust a lot more quickly and fluently to changes/challenges on the pitch.
The invincibles are a perfect example.
You should also not forget that both styles have their advantadges /disadvantadges and both always need some of the other as freedom brings creativity(and breaks organisation)
Wenger's philosophy was to break organized units by creating chaos by being unpredictable.
Letting players express themselves freely.
When it worked to perfection it was pure beauty and insanely effective.

Open your mind a little and think outside the box, there is no right way.
It did work in the old days, when all your opponents have a rather basic game plan comparing to the modern era.

But it does not work anymore post 2010, when modern tactics came, and teams starts to add complexity to their tactics. Wenger were tactically outclassed more and more frequently by tacticians from the new school of thought. If your opponents are coming up with a detailed plan, and they execute the plan as a team, we would always struggle when we let our players to do whatever they wanted.

And what do you mean by those players can adjust a lot more quickly and fluently to changes if they play with more freedom?

If players have a pre-sets of positioning and movement instructions, they will know exactly where their teammates are without even looking. The know where to direct the ball to before even receiving the ball.
 
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Kysus

Active Member
It did work in the old days. But not anymore post 2010, when modern tactics came, and teams starts to adding complexity to their tactics. Wenger were tactically outclassed more and more frequently by tacticians from the new school of thought. If your opponent are coming up with a detailed plan, and completing the plan as a team, we would always struggle to let our players doing whatever they wanted.

Dude stop acting like detailed tactics is something new ffs.

Football always springs back and forth between more rigid systems(Catenaccio for example) and free systems(Total football)

Neither is better or worse....
 

CaseUteinberger

Established Member

Country: Sweden
Perhaps its been shown on here before but I haven’t seen it so went to have a look:

Arsenal before Arteta joined
2v3dcx.jpeg


Arsenal after Arteta joined
ixjc8a.jpeg


+ a cheeky FA cup
+ a happy, motivated squad

And the only signings he got were worldbeaters Pablo Mari and Cedric Soares, that were used for like 5 games.

I mean, unless you expected him to go full invincible mode from day 1 you have to tip your hat to Arteta. He managed this with the same dead squad that had most of us waking up in tears in the middle of the night. Imagine if he gets some players he actually wants!
Arteta has done a great job. No doubt about it. It was a big gamble by the club getting an unproven new manager in, but so far he hardly has set a foot down wrong.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
Dude stop acting like detailed tactics is something new ffs.

Football always springs back and forth between more rigid systems(Catenaccio for example) and free systems(Total football)

Neither is better or worse....
It’s not even about rigid vs flexible or defensive vs attacking.

It’s just about telling your players to be at which position, at which time, under what situation and where they should move to in a highly detailed manner.

You can have a rigid system with players deviates a bit less to their assigned position. You tell the players with individual instructions to achieve this.

Same applies if you want a flexible team, which players interchanging position more. You give them detailed instructions to follow.

There will be no freedom in football ever again. It wouldn’t work. The tactical world is improving to a point the everything get so complex, you just can’t win with a “freedom” tactics.
 

tap-in

Nothing Wrong With Me
Bodes well for next season when you look at our recent results. We have shown what we can do when we are organised and play like a team. Same players all season but managed in different ways. I admit I thought it was too soon for Arteta to manage a big club but he's done brilliantly. We just need to add 2 or 3 players, then we can compete with any team next season. We also need to keep Auba!
 

Kysus

Active Member
It’s just about telling your players to be at which position, at which time, under what situation and where they should move to in a highly detailed manner.

You mean like Catenaggio which was the way to play and win in the 60ies?
Guess what broke it?
Total football in the 70ies which was total free flowing football...

Seriously get of your high horse, start thinking outside of the box and realize you know **** all.
Realizing we know **** all is the death of our ignorance.
 

kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
Wenger just had a different philosophy.
He built comprehensive units that micromanaged themselves on the pitch and if this works properly those units can adjust a lot more quickly and fluently to changes/challenges on the pitch.
The invincibles are a perfect example.
You should also not forget that both styles have their advantadges /disadvantadges and both always need some of the other as freedom brings creativity(and breaks organisation)
Wenger's philosophy was to break organized units by creating chaos by being unpredictable.
Letting players express themselves freely.
When it worked to perfection it was pure beauty and insanely effective.

Open your mind a little and think outside the box, there is no right way.

You tweak tactics according to squad ... and you tweak squad according to tactics.. and you tweak both according to opposition. And then you manage and motivate and guide and tweak in game.

Arteta just beat Klopp and Guardiola. Had Wenger lost to a rookie manager using a bits and pieces squad people would find so much to say. Ultimately you also need a killer striker and a worldie goalkeeper. When Wenger had that he was invincible.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
what you mentioned back then was not 1/10 complex to the current era in terms of individual player instructions and football/stats analysis...in the build up phase, in pressing, in all areas.
 

ChefMan21

Well-Known Member
I think we need to give him two full preseason's and three windows to show his worth. Excited for him and about him - wasn't my first choice by any means but I'm sold so far - I just think with how weird this preseason will be with the pandemic, we need to find a little more patience than we otherwise might.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
I have use yesterday’s match here as an example (as quoted below). With this much of detail planned, are you telling me that the opponent players can counter this by themselves on the pitch by giving them freedom?

And you said Guardiola was tactically shxt and Klopp was just alright??? Keep going with your jokes.

You really think it’s that simple?

Wenger sets a general formation/philosophy to his players and trust them on the pitch. Their positioning and movements were very disorganised. You would called it freedom.

Morden tactics is all about instructing detailed pre-sets positioning and movement instructions to players, to exploit the opponent weaknesses as a team and avoid the other way round.

For example, if we need to create space for aubameyang on the left, how are we going to do it?

1) We pass from deep, invite Chelsea to press high. Now there are space in behind.

2) Then how do we take their wing back out of the game? We create overload on the left, the 2 CBs shift centrally, as tierney shift to the wide left, AMN shift inwards to create the overload with tierney. Chelsea engaged their wing back upwards to prevent overload. Now space on the left.

3) How to make even more space for aubameyang, Lacazette drops deep to create a greater overload and dragging a Chelsea CB out of the game. Now there is even more space.

But there are other things we have to consider. If we create these overload/play from deep, are there any risks? If they dropped a striker deep to counter our plan? Maybe we can shift Pepe inwards to counter their tweaks? And what next will they do?

And above, I have only mentioned a small part of the build up phase play. I haven’t even mentioned the defensive phase and final third phase, and what every player’s duties are, in the transition between these phases.....

Every of these players position and movements are now pre-instructed to a very high detailed level. Every single moves is now well calculated. Much more analytic based. It’s more than just 442/4231, knowing your players quality and then play them in the right position.

I’m not praising pep for whatever he wins. He wins maybe because it’s money, maybe it’s luck. But by purely looking at how good he is on modern tactical knowledge, how detailed he sets up his game plan and how clever are his in-game tactical tweaks, it’s a fool to not admiring him. Not to mentioned that his tactical ideas was revolutionary. His ideas changes a lot on how today’s football teams are played/how they press. Arteta is that good mostly because of him.

You see how many details went into this game.


And this video has not even mentioned how they press. Man oriented pressing? zonal pressing? passing lane oriented pressing? or a mixture of the above? When do we start to press? 15 yards outside opponent’s goal-line? Or 30 yards? How many players would you commit? What if they drop another player deep to help. If they avoid the press, are we in danger of being attacked?

Klopp and Guardiola are two of the best tacticians, I don’t know what’s in your mind to make it like they are average.
 
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kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
I have use yesterday’s match here as an example (as quoted below). With this much of detail planned, are you telling me that the opponent players can counter this by themselves on the pitch by giving them freedom?

And you said Guardiola was tactically shxt and Klopp was just alright??? Keep going with your jokes.

Yup.. didn't u see Pulisic?
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
Yup.. didn't u see Pulisic?
He has the license to roam a bit in the final third does not means that he doesn’t carry instructions in the pressing/defensive phase, or instructions of where he should be/how he should move in the build up phase.

And probably the roaming and the shifting centrally behaviour itself is an instruction to create problems in our central areas.

(When does he has the license to drift inside? Is he allowed to roam in the midfield areas? Or the freedom only starts in the final third?) (If he does drift inside, will there be a player instructed to occupy his original position?) These are also instructions.

Freedom in football is pre 2010 stuff. I appreciate it a lot. And I do think that it was great. But I also accepted that it has no use in today’s tactical world. And no professional teams would play ever like that in the future.
 
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kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
It was an example of -

With this much of detail planned, are you telling me that the opponent players can counter this by themselves on the pitch by giving them freedom?

 

kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
He has the license to roam a bit in the final third does not means that he doesn’t carry instructions in the pressing/defensive phase, or instructions of where he should be/how he should move in the build up phase.

And probably the roaming and the shifting centrally behaviour itself is an instruction to create problems in our central areas.

(When does he has the license to drift inside? Is he allowed to roam in the midfield areas? Or the freedom only starts in the final third?) (If he does drift inside, will there be a player instructed to occupy his original position?) These are also instructions.

Freedom in football is pre 2010 stuff. I appreciate it a lot. And I do think that it was great. But I also accept that it has no use in today’s tactical world. And no professional teams would play ever like that in the future.

You seem to be arguing an imaginary position where a bunch of maverick players just run around against a tactically drilled team. Nothing is black and white. Relax.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
You seem to be arguing an imaginary position where a bunch of maverick players just run around against a tactically drilled team. Nothing is black and white. Relax.
Did you read through the argument of me and that person in recent pages (from p.411)?
 
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krackpot

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
You really think it’s that simple?

Wenger sets a general formation/philosophy to his players and trust them on the pitch. Their positioning and movements were very disorganised. You would called it freedom.

Morden tactics is all about instructing detailed pre-sets positioning and movement instructions to players, to exploit the opponent weaknesses as a team and avoid the other way round.

For example, if we need to create space for aubameyang on the left, how are we going to do it?

1) We pass from deep, invite Chelsea to press high. Now there are space in behind.

2) Then how do we take their wing back out of the game? We create overload on the left, CBs shift central, tierney shift to the wide left, AMN shift inwards to create the overload with tierney. Chelsea engaged their wing back upwards to prevent overload. Now space on the left.

3) How to make even more space for aubameyang, Lacazette drops deep to create a greater overload and dragging a Chelsea CB out of the game. Now there is even more space.

But there are other things we have to consider. If we create these overload/play from deep, are there any risks? If they dropped a striker deep to counter our plan? Maybe we can shift Pepe inwards to counter their tweaks? And what next will they do?

And above, I have only mentioned a small part of the build up phase play. I haven’t even mentioned the defensive phase and final third phase, and what every player’s duties are, in the transition between these phases.....

Every of these players position and movements are now pre-instructed to a very high detailed level. Every single moves is now well calculated. Much more analytic based. It’s more than just 442/4231, knowing your players quality and then play them in the right position.

I’m not praising pep for whatever he wins. He wins maybe because it’s money, maybe it’s luck. But by purely looking at how good he is on modern tactical knowledge, how detailed he sets up his game plan and how clever are his in-game tactical tweaks, it’s a fool to not admiring him. Not to mentioned that his tactical ideas was revolutionary. His ideas changes a lot on how today’s football teams are played/how they press. Arteta is that good mostly because of him.

You see how many details went into this game.
And this video has not even mentioned how they press. Man oriented pressing? zonal pressing? passing lane oriented pressing? or a mixture of the above? When do we start to press? 15 yards outside opponent’s goal-line? Or 30 yards? How many players would you commit? What if they drop another player deep to help. If they avoid the press, are we in danger of being attacked?

Klopp and Guardiola are two of the best tacticians, I don’t know what’s in your mind to make it like they are average.
That's not details. That is over-analysis.

You want to see where it began? Here it is, with the Dutch national team:

This is where you get your Klopp-ball and Pep-ball. It's more or less the same tactics with different players, and better positioning.

If, with all that money and technology, Pep wouldn't have made some progress, then heaven help them. I'm not against Pep or Klopp winning anything but they did it with a lot of money.

Pep Bought in about 360M worth of players. Klopp was basically doing top-4 until he chanced upon Salah/Mane. Then he spent a lot of money on the GK and that defender.

Wenger got a horrible ethic, and he changed the whole philosophy of the club from the inside-out. Drinking problems, ugly football, dire training, you name it...Arteta got a broken club and he had to bring the confidence back. He has kept the same players too, like papa Wenger.

If Arteta does anything good next season, I am SURE Barcelona or some Spanish team will get him.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
That's not details. That is over-analysis.

You want to see where it began? Here it is, with the Dutch national team:

This is where you get your Klopp-ball and Pep-ball. It's more or less the same tactics with different players, and better positioning.

If, with all that money and technology, Pep wouldn't have made some progress, then heaven help them. I'm not against Pep or Klopp winning anything but they did it with a lot of money.

Pep Bought in about 360M worth of players. Klopp was basically doing top-4 until he chanced upon Salah/Mane. Then he spent a lot of money on the GK and that defender.

Wenger got a horrible ethic, and he changed the whole philosophy of the club from the inside-out. Drinking problems, ugly football, dire training, you name it...Arteta got a broken club and he had to bring the confidence back. He has kept the same players too, like papa Wenger.

If Arteta does anything good next season, I am SURE Barcelona or some Spanish team will get him.
The general principles and philosophy is from that. I agree the general layout of the team tactics is from previous eras, nothing new. And I never said they are new.

But I’m talking about the tonnes of detailed individual player’s instructions that we have today. Breaking down the above principles into 100 smaller instructions, to let players to follow. Divide an aim into 10 objectives. Divide a game into multiple sub-games. The overall principles are the same, how you execute it is different.

In today’s football we are not just telling the players to play by the general principles. But how in every small steps you do to achieve this principles. We are more methodic, by pre-setting instructions to make the achievement of those principles more efficient.

“You must follow these 1)2)3)....10) steps to achieve the 1st principle. And you have a total of 50 steps to follow, for a total of 5 principles”. This is the modern approach. This is what I mean by today’s tactics are all well calculated. If all your opponents breaks down tactics and do all these calculations and you don’t, you will be tactically outclassed.

The above is different to : “here is my 5 general principles and you have the freedom to do what you like as long as you follow these principles.” This was the wenger approach, and the truth is no one will ever do this in the future.

And for the second bold paragraph, Wenger was no doubt top class with those things along with his vision in football. He brings a great culture to us and bring our club forward. Amazing achievement. His man management was top class. His tactics was also good enough for the old eras. Sad that modern tactics has evolved and he couldn’t keep up.
 
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