Mikel Arteta: The Real Deal

[db10_therza]

I am bias but the way he constantly bought the league's best striker and had the media/refs in his pockets I find it hard to rate him as much as the British media do.

What did he really innovate? (I'm being serious I might have missed something).

Wenger changed training, diets, the way players are signed, managers at top clubs being from europe being the norm all because of him. I always find it strange how dismissive people are of Wenger when compared to Fergie/Pep.

The fact that Wenger gave him a run for his money with a fraction of his budget means you can’t seriously put him down as the goat. A great yeah, but not goat.

 

[Tnegs]

He tends to win out in a lot of these arguments based on Aberdeen but people forget that being up against United in the 90's/early 2000's was like being up against City today.

They seemed to break the British transfer record every year back in the day. Keane/Cole/Yorke/Van Nistelrooy/Veron/Ferdinand. I'm pretty sure all of these where records at the time.

He beat out prime Chelsea under Mourinho too. Won his last league title in 2013. He was winning titles from the 70s to the 2010s. How much did football change yet he was he always on top.

 

[Macho]

The fact that Wenger gave him a run for his money with a fraction of his budget means you can’t seriously put him down as the goat. A great yeah, but not goat.

For me they are all in the same tier, I just find it interesting why Wenger is often dismissed. He had the hardest fall from grace and didn't win CL I suppose, but for me Wenger is football.

Some of my beef with Arteta is the fact that he (sometimes rightfully) deviates from the stuff I'm used to after 20 years of Wenger leadership.

 

[AberGooner]

He beat out prime Chelsea under Mourinho too. Won his last league title in 2013. He was winning titles from the 70s to the 2010s. How much did football change yet he was he always on top.

For sure but as I said they had deep pockets at United. They didn't lose the spending power when Abramovich arrived, they just had someone who could match them a bit more.

 

[Tnegs]

I am bias but the way he constantly bought the league's best striker and had the media/refs in his pockets I find it hard to rate him as much as the British media do.

What did he really innovate? (I'm being serious I might have missed something).

Wenger changed training, diets, the way players are signed, managers at top clubs in the prem being from europe being the norm all (mostly) because of him. I always find it strange how dismissive people are of Wenger when compared to Fergie/Pep.

I think to have won the PL in the 90s,00s and 10s is a pretty crazy achievement. If health didn’t stop him I have no doubt he would still be winning in the 20s too.

Wenger in these conversations is like R9 in the GOAT ones. R9 has those injuries and Wenger has the stadium build. It will always be a what if scenario and not one you can prove. Peak Wenger was neck and neck with Fergie we all saw that.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

The main point against Fergie being the GOAT is the relative lack of European Titles, 2 CL's is great but it should have been more really.

Think you've got to factor him winning the title 3 times with Aberdeen and breaking up the Rangers / Celtic dynamic too and I believe he won the Cup Winners Cup there too.

I reckon as Arsenal fans we're understandably a bit harsh judging him in these conversations. I'm not saying he should be everyone's GOAT but I think he deserves to be in the conversation.

 

[Dokaka]

I always find it strange how dismissive people are of Wenger when compared to Fergie/Pep.

Because some people only care about trophies and won't entertain any nuanced discussion outside of that.

I mean you just laughed at my post downplaying Ancelotti a bit but what is your argument for Ancelotti vs. other top managers outside of his trophy haul? He's consistently had absolute top squads available to him.

My post was literally an argument for managers like Wenger.

 

[Macho]

I think to have won the PL in the 90s,00s and 10s is a pretty crazy achievement. If health didn’t stop him I have no doubt he would still be winning in the 20s too.

Wenger in these conversations is like R9 in the GOAT ones. R9 has those injuries and Wenger has the stadium build. It will always be a what if scenario and not one you can prove. Peak Wenger was neck and neck with Fergie we all saw that.

Fair points.

To be clear (I think you picked up) I wasn't saying you insinuated Wenger isn't in the convo - that's just the wider consensus that I see in the goat manager convos.

 

[Macho]

Because some people only care about trophies and won't entertain any nuanced discussion outside of that.

I mean you just laughed at my post downplaying Ancelotti a bit but what is your argument for Ancelotti vs. other top managers outside of his trophy haul? He's consistently had absolute top squads available to him.

My post was literally an argument for managers like Wenger.

With Ancelotti, had he went out with a whimper at Everton I still think he would be in these convos. However, he's just gone and done it again with Madrid in an era where many assumed he would be outdated. I think he is beyond doubt now.

He's always had good squads but his managerial career wasn;t always like that.

 

[Tnegs]

Fair points.

To be clear (I think you picked up) I wasn't saying you insinuated Wenger isn't in the convo - that's just the wider consensus that I see in the goat manager convos.

Most non Arsenal fans don’t know the details like we do. They just see that Arsenal stopped winning trophies while Utd kept going they don’t know/care that we were making a surplus on transfers while others were investing in their teams. On the other hand the measurement of the GOAT will always have a heavy weightage on titles so it’s not one we can easily disregard even though we know it goes a lot deeper.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

He tends to win out in a lot of these arguments based on Aberdeen but people forget that being up against United in the 90's/early 2000's was like being up against City today.

They seemed to break the British transfer record every year back in the day. Keane/Cole/Yorke/Van Nistelrooy/Veron/Ferdinand. I'm pretty sure all of these where records at the time.

To spend £30m on a defender back then was a huge deal, the others were big too obvs but yeah they bullied the transfer market for sure.

 

[dka1]

I’ve never done a Star Wars title, never watched any of those films.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

Can't be Fergie when he always got slapped up in Europe despite United dominating for two decades domestically. That tells it's own story

 

[Dokaka]

With Ancelotti, had he went out with a whimper at Everton I still think he would be in these convos. However, he's just gone and done it again with Madrid in an era where many assumed he would be outdated. I think he is beyond doubt now.

He's always had good squads but his managerial career wasn;t always like that.

Yeah but I really don't rate getting it done with Real Madrid much differently than winning the league with a peak Man Utd side. Real Madrid is ostensibly the all-star team of football. Same reason I don't really rate Zidane, he hasn't had to really manage yet, just had to keep stars happy and let them cook.

In essence I think there a managers with a history of managing top teams that have done it better and managers with a history of managing lesser sides that have done that better. Ancelotti's most impressive achievement is his longevity.

In player terms he's like put up an entire career of 7/10 performances which is insane considering how long he's been at this but he's never really popped off in the same way some of the managers I'd put above him has. Doesn't have periods of completely dominance, didn't win enough with the quality available to him, just always good across eras.

 

[AberGooner]

To spend £30m on a defender back then was a huge deal, the others were big too obvs but yeah they bullied the transfer market for sure.

Yep they where just a formidable outfit. I'd actually say even more so than City because although they've obviously chucked the money about I wouldn't necessarily say they've always targeted the best player within the Prem like United did. Other than Shearer they pretty much got who they liked.

 

[db10_therza]

Yep they where just a formidable outfit. I'd actually say even more so than City because although they've obviously chucked the money about I wouldn't necessarily say they've always targeted the best player within the Prem like United did. Other than Shearer they pretty much got who they liked.

Outside of Haaland, City have actually rarely gone for the obvious transfers (maybe Aguero?) - the majority of their transfers have been sensible gambles as opposed to paying up for the best. Their latter day hero’s like KDB and Rodri had plenty of question marks. It’s not like United were back in the day for sure.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

Yep they where just a formidable outfit. I'd actually say even more so than City because although they've obviously chucked the money about I wouldn't necessarily say they've always targeted the best player within the Prem like United did. Other than Shearer they pretty much got who they liked.

They were arguably worse than City, only club in the league capable of that kind of relentless spend until Chelsea turned up.

 

[Riou]

The GOAT manager for me is Barry Fry, good laugh he seemed.

Either him or whatever that Scottish manager was called on Dream Team that drove his car into Harchester United's team bus after the play off final, killing like 90% of the team...you don't get characters in football like that anymore and it's a big shame for the game!

 

[boonthegoon]

It's just simple

- Arsène
World class - Arteta
End of list

 

[DJ_Markstar]

The main point against Fergie being the GOAT is the relative lack of European Titles, 2 CL's is great but it should have been more really.

Think you've got to factor him winning the title 3 times with Aberdeen and breaking up the Rangers / Celtic dynamic too and I believe he won the Cup Winners Cup there too.

I reckon as Arsenal fans we're understandably a bit harsh judging him in these conversations. I'm not saying he should be everyone's GOAT but I think he deserves to be in the conversation.

Think people forget that the English league really wasn't all that strong when Fergie came, he was arguably the guy that made it possible for English teams to win the CL regularly again after the English dominance in the late 70s and early 80s.