Mikel Arteta: The Real Deal

[Goonger]

Think people forget that the English league really wasn't all that strong when Fergie came, he was arguably the guy that made it possible for English teams to win the CL regularly again after the English dominance in the late 70s and early 80s.

Yeah, English football was at a bit of a low because of the English European ban after Heysel.
Imagine English teams being banned for 5 years nowadays?!

That coincidentally allowed Rangers to buy a chunk of the English national team, including goal keeper Chris Woods, captain Terry Butcher, Gary Stevens, Trevor Steven, Ray Wilkins, Mark Hately, Trevor Francis, Graham Roberts, Mark Walters, they were up there with the biggest teams in Britain at the time. They actually were one of the founder members of the Champions League.

The product was poor, ground conditions were poor, Hillsborough disaster also happened late 80's, all this helped give birth to the introduction of the Premier League, something David Dein was at the centre of.

 

[A_G]

It's just simple

- Arsène
World class - Arteta
End of list

- Emery

 

[DJ_Markstar]

- Emery

Bampire?

 

[boonthegoon]

Bampire?

Bumpire

 

[Makingtrax]

Most non Arsenal fans don’t know the details like we do. They just see that Arsenal stopped winning trophies while Utd kept going they don’t know/care that we were making a surplus on transfers while others were investing in their teams. On the other hand the measurement of the GOAT will always have a heavy weightage on titles so it’s not one we can easily disregard even though we know it goes a lot deeper.

This. Transfermarkt shows us that between 96 and 2013 United as a club invested £380m and Arsenal £45m in players. So over the period of their rivalry Fergie was given 8 times the amount of money as Wenger, yet they were pretty much neck and neck for long periods.

Pep, Ancelotti, Fergie were great managers, but Wenger was undoubtedly exceptional.

 

[squallman]

This. Transfermarkt shows us that between 96 and 2013 United as a club invested £380m and Arsenal £45m in players. So over the period of their rivalry Fergie was given 8 times the amount of money as Wenger, yet they were pretty much neck and neck for long periods.

Pep, Ancelotti, Fergie were great managers, but Wenger was undoubtedly exceptional.

I think what gets skipped over a lot in these discussions is that United were basically the Bayern of English football before Chelsea came along.

Ferguson systematically weakened his rivals by buying their best players.

Roy Keane
Cantona
Ferdinand
Rooney
Sheringham
Dwight Yorke
Berbatov
Carrick

He wanted Shearer and Vieira as well. How could any club build when they lost their talisman? It was such a winning strategy that City copied it by buying all of our players, Everton's , Sp**s', and Aston Villa's.

 

[jones]

Excellent point.
If you consider players he trained in Milan (since November 2001. to summer 2009.) and the fact that AC Milan was European juggernaut then, only 1 Serie A title in almost 8 seasons seems a bit underwhelming.

You consistently have weird takes when it gets to Milan lol. Under Ancelotti Milan either won a trophy or were competitive in every season from 01 to 08, it's not a shame not winning a title when you look at who the competition was basically half the leagues squads were Madrid or City level.

Ronaldo in his best ever season couldn't win it and got just one UEFA Cup in his time at Inter and even in the 2000s virtually every team even those getting relegated had at least one of two players close to world class.

Finally Ancelotti should have won another title in 06 but Moratti the criminal stole it from him.

 

[UpTheGunnerz]

For me big man Chapman will always be the goat

 

[El Realista]

One more time!

 

[HattoriHanzo]

You consistently have weird takes when it gets to Milan lol. Under Ancelotti Milan either won a trophy or were competitive in every season from 01 to 08, it's not a shame not winning a title when you look at who the competition was basically half the leagues squads were Madrid or City level.

Ronaldo in his best ever season couldn't win it and got just one UEFA Cup in his time at Inter and even in the 2000s virtually every team even those getting relegated had at least one of two players close to world class.

Finally Ancelotti should have won another title in 06 but Moratti the criminal stole it from him.

Ancelotti's Milan has been competitive for the title in 3 seasons (out of 8):
-2003/04 when they have won it
-2004/05 when they were 2nd 7 pts below Juventus
-2005/06 when they should have won it (but they faced 30 pts deduction because of involvement in Calciopoli, they were lucky that they haven't been relegated, maybe the fact that Galliani was president of Serie A and that Berlusconi was prime minister of Italy when Calciopoli broke helped)

In another 5 seasons under Ancelotti AC Milan was between 3rd and 5th place, with more than 10 pts below the winner, therefore not competitive.

If Ancelotti should have won the title in 2005/06 and Moratti stole it, can we say the same about Arteta in seasons 2022/23 and 2023/24? Can we say that sheikh Mansour bin Zayed stole these 2 from him?

 

[Macho]

Downplaying Milan Ancelotti in the name of Arteta, seen it all now.

Arteta isn't world class, he's not even better than Emery.

 

[BergMan]

Yeah, English football was at a bit of a low because of the English European ban after Heysel.
Imagine English teams being banned for 5 years nowadays?!

That coincidentally allowed Rangers to buy a chunk of the English national team, including goal keeper Chris Woods, captain Terry Butcher, Gary Stevens, Trevor Steven, Ray Wilkins, Mark Hately, Trevor Francis, Graham Roberts, Mark Walters, they were up there with the biggest teams in Britain at the time. They actually were one of the founder members of the Champions League.

The product was poor, ground conditions were poor, Hillsborough disaster also happened late 80's, all this helped give birth to the introduction of the Premier League, something David Dein was at the centre of.

How was it accepted that all English clubs be punished because of the actions of Liverpool fans?
I don’t get that.

 

[HattoriHanzo]

Downplaying Milan Ancelotti in the name of Arteta, seen it all now.

Arteta isn't world class, he's not even better than Emery.

Did I say that Arteta is world class?
Of course that he isn't, as far as I'm concerned he can leave tomorrow.
He is still second rate coach/ manager.

I am AC Milan fan and I like Ancelotti, and as Dokaka stated (and I agreed) my opinion is that he should have won more than 1 scudetto in his 8 years as AC Milan manager.
If you consider players he had there at his disposal.
I have lived in Milan when Ancelotti was manager and I watched their matches at San Siro regularly, so I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Macho]

Did I say that Arteta is world class?

Nah but a few have tried a page or two back.

 

[jones]

Ancelotti's Milan has been competitive for the title in 3 seasons (out of 8):
-2003/04 when they have won it
-2004/05 when they were 2nd 7 pts below Juventus
-2005/06 when they should have won it (but they faced 30 pts deduction because of involvement in Calciopoli, they were lucky that they haven't been relegated, maybe the fact that Galliani was president of Serie A and that Berlusconi was prime minister of Italy when Calciopoli broke helped)

In another 5 seasons under Ancelotti AC Milan was between 3rd and 5th place, with more than 10 pts below the winner, therefore not competitive.

If Ancelotti should have won the title in 2005/06 and Moratti stole it, can we say the same about Arteta in seasons 2022/23 and 2023/24? Can we say that sheikh Mansour bin Zayed stole these 2 from him?

They were always a top team, first season Ancelotti wins the CL plus Coppa, second he wins the league, third he's narrowly beaten by a top Juve team plus cheating Gerrard and his scummy dives in the CL final, the season after was possibly his best but they got shafted by calciopoli and in 08/09 they faded towards the end but weren't far off. Then another CL won, only 07/08 they didn't compete for the big trophies but still got the CWC and Supercup at least.

You thinking Milan were lucky not to get relegated says it all lol. Ask any Italian who was around that time even ahead of Juve it's Inter who are the criminal organisation cornholing the entire league.

Pissing on Ancelotti not winning against this competition is fine meanwhile your boys Capello and Sacchi finished 11th and 10th in their last seasons there with a backline of Costacurta Maldini and Desailly.

 

[HattoriHanzo]

They were always a top team, first season Ancelotti wins the CL plus Coppa, second he wins the league, third he's narrowly beaten by a top Juve team plus cheating Gerrard and his scummy dives in the CL final, the season after was possibly his best but they got shafted by calciopoli and in 08/09 they faded towards the end but weren't far off. Then another CL won, only 07/08 they didn't compete for the big trophies but still got the CWC and Supercup at least.

You thinking Milan were lucky not to get relegated says it all lol. Ask any Italian who was around that time even ahead of Juve it's Inter who are the criminal organisation cornholing the entire league.

Pissing on Ancelotti not winning against this competition is fine meanwhile your boys Capello and Sacchi finished 11th and 10th in their last seasons there with a backline of Costacurta Maldini and Desailly.

I rate Capello and Sacchi as AC Milan managers more than Ancelotti, it's true.
I don't know why you consider it to be pissing on Ancelotti. This is just my opinion.

I'm also sure that Ancelotti rates Sacchi a lot, considering that Sacchi was his coach in AC Milan 4 years, and that Sacchi gave him his first job as assistant in Italian NT (he was Sacchi's assistant from 1992. to 1995.)
Sacchi is one of the most influential managers in last 35 years who influenced both Klopp and Guardiola.
2 Europa cups and 1 Serie A title in 4 years is not bad result.

As far as Capello, he has won 4 Serie A titles and 1 UCL in his first stint (5 years) as a manager in AC Milan.
From AC Milan point of view, very impressive.
I must also mention UCL final 1994 when his Milan dismantled Cruyff's Barcelona (who was big favourite) with 4:0.
My favourite UCL final and the most dominant performance of one team in UCL final, in my opinion.

The fact that both Sacchi and Capello each had 1 bad season as AC Milan managers, both in their second stint, doesn't change the fact that I rate them so much.

 

[albakos]

I must also mention UCL final 1994 when his Milan dismantled Cruyff's Barcelona (who was big favourite) with 4:0.
My favourite UCL final and the most dominant performance of one team in UCL final, in my opinion.

In other words, you rate Dejan Savicevic very highly

 

[HattoriHanzo]

In other words, you rate Dejan Savicevic very highly

They called him Il Genio in Italy for a reason, Berlusconi adored him.
Zubizaretta probably still dreams Dejo's goal from that match, master piece.

But it wasn't Savičević who was the most impressive in that match, it was Desailly.
Him and Albertini completely nullified Barcelona's midfield.
Berlusconi bought him as a CB, but Capello converted him to defensive midfielder since they already had world class CBs like Baresi and Costacurta.
Maldini played mainly as LB then, but in final he played CB because Baresi and Costacurta were suspended.
Anyway, Desailly as DM was impressive, setting the template for DMs who came after him.

 

[Trilly]

Don’t think @HattoriHanzo ’s opinions are that controversial.

He’s just saying that Ancelotti could have done more at Milan, the convo isn’t about him being good or even a world class manager. If it’s about being the GOAT, you’re allowed to have super high standards.

 

[UpTheGunnerz]

Herbert Chapman, Josip Guardiola and Sir Alex for me Clive