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Our Inability to Develop Players
- Thread starter Aevi
- Start date
- Replies 46
- Views 3,643
RunTheTrap
Kai Havertz Offense League
I would be really disappointed if we somehow managed to mess up Saliba's career. That's a French International captain written all over his face. And he has the luxury to be with David Luiz and Mustafi. I would actually feel really bad if we ruined him.
Riou
In The Winchester, Waiting For This To Blow Over
Country: Northern Ireland
Player:Gabriel
This, more or less.
Fabregas came into the first team in 2004...had the likes of Vieira, Bergkamp, Henry, Campbell, Lauren, Gilberto, Lehmann etc...in the team, they set the bar.
Saka comes into the first team in 2019, and after six months probably thinks he is already the best player at the club cause most of the experienced players are just ****ing goofs
It's why I am sick of all our senior players...act like senior players ffs!
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Our inability stems from a lack of planning. The squad that's been put together has no chemistry and none of the roles the players have are complementary to themselves or the players around them. Arteta has done his best to try and flesh out roles for these guys that actually help the team overall. For the Hale Enders, it's been tough. Particularly Nelson. I've got a lot of stock in the kid, and I still think he has the most upside if he gets a good run and some confidence & momentum. But I look at the team, and then look at guys like Nelson, Willock, AMN, Nketiah, Saka, ESR and co, and I think "Thank God Saka is versatile", because he'd be having as tough a time as the others. God bless his resilience. I hope the others will learn from it, because IMO, they're gonna have to be the leaders of this team.
The hope really is that Arteta, Edu and Per manage to get their heads together and do some serious squad building over the next year or so. Much of that will involve Hale End, we need to use it.
The hope really is that Arteta, Edu and Per manage to get their heads together and do some serious squad building over the next year or so. Much of that will involve Hale End, we need to use it.
Lidl_Reed
Wants a new name
Ahhh.... this is a topic I really care about and have for a long time.
Let's look at what we do to young players and why they get ruined. We go one of two ways
1. Chuck them in the first team-> They either are world class like Cesc and can make it or not yet good enough and are soon sold (Scez) or get injuries and never recover as this is a physical league (Bellerin, Wilshere) and never recover from it
2. Arrange a horrible loan for them which results in them getting near no game time and then when they fail on loan, sell them in the belief that they could never make it here anymore. People in this category include Gnabry, who we loaned out to fricking West Brom and then sold him thinking that he could never make it, rather than realising that he's good enough but with a rather regressive manager.
The issue with youth is that you can't just chuck them in the team for 80 straight games with expectations on them and expect to get away with it. Look at Guendouzi. He should be playing on loan for a smaller club right now, maybe Leeds in the Championship or something, or another possession style club. We're lucky he's not injured yet.
This is the other issue. We need to either loan our players to Germany/Spain or to the few clubs that play our style in the Championship/PL. Instead, we just send them to any club that'll have them.
The other issue is competition. Guendouzi has no competition for central midfield since every option there is horrific. Neither does Willock. AMN can actually agitate to play in midfield because he can see that we're actually so atrocious there that he can play there. This is not a healthy situation.
Contrast to Man City. Foden who would walk into our team, gets to play limited minutes. Mind, he might leave, but if he stays, he will get minimal injuries because he won't have game time when he's fragile, and he'll develop into a top talent. Meanwhile, he'll try to raise his game to get in because he'll see De Bruyne and co ahead of him. Meanwhile, someone like Douzi will see ****ing Xhaka ahead of him and think I'm already better. That creates complacency.
Bellerin did not improve at all after Debuchy was sidelined and returned shiite after injury. He had no competition. Youth players need to know that their place is under threat. At Charity FC, they're not under threat. They also need to get limited game time either at this level or a lot of game time in a less physical league or in a lower league where there skill will be too good for any cloggers to break them.
In short, it's not just who's managing the club. The way the club is run, the lack of care going into loans or signings shows. We've probably gone for Per in the Academy because he's cheap, rather than getting the best man in. Controversial, but clubs that go the cheap option usually suffer, and I can't believe that we spend a lot on youth academy and staff and nothing on the first team. It's usually consistently ****
Let's look at what we do to young players and why they get ruined. We go one of two ways
1. Chuck them in the first team-> They either are world class like Cesc and can make it or not yet good enough and are soon sold (Scez) or get injuries and never recover as this is a physical league (Bellerin, Wilshere) and never recover from it
2. Arrange a horrible loan for them which results in them getting near no game time and then when they fail on loan, sell them in the belief that they could never make it here anymore. People in this category include Gnabry, who we loaned out to fricking West Brom and then sold him thinking that he could never make it, rather than realising that he's good enough but with a rather regressive manager.
The issue with youth is that you can't just chuck them in the team for 80 straight games with expectations on them and expect to get away with it. Look at Guendouzi. He should be playing on loan for a smaller club right now, maybe Leeds in the Championship or something, or another possession style club. We're lucky he's not injured yet.
This is the other issue. We need to either loan our players to Germany/Spain or to the few clubs that play our style in the Championship/PL. Instead, we just send them to any club that'll have them.
The other issue is competition. Guendouzi has no competition for central midfield since every option there is horrific. Neither does Willock. AMN can actually agitate to play in midfield because he can see that we're actually so atrocious there that he can play there. This is not a healthy situation.
Contrast to Man City. Foden who would walk into our team, gets to play limited minutes. Mind, he might leave, but if he stays, he will get minimal injuries because he won't have game time when he's fragile, and he'll develop into a top talent. Meanwhile, he'll try to raise his game to get in because he'll see De Bruyne and co ahead of him. Meanwhile, someone like Douzi will see ****ing Xhaka ahead of him and think I'm already better. That creates complacency.
Bellerin did not improve at all after Debuchy was sidelined and returned shiite after injury. He had no competition. Youth players need to know that their place is under threat. At Charity FC, they're not under threat. They also need to get limited game time either at this level or a lot of game time in a less physical league or in a lower league where there skill will be too good for any cloggers to break them.
In short, it's not just who's managing the club. The way the club is run, the lack of care going into loans or signings shows. We've probably gone for Per in the Academy because he's cheap, rather than getting the best man in. Controversial, but clubs that go the cheap option usually suffer, and I can't believe that we spend a lot on youth academy and staff and nothing on the first team. It's usually consistently ****
Country: England
Erlis
Only Came To See Granit Xhaka
Country: Kosova
I agree about Lacazette, he used to score some beautiful goals from some strange difficult positions and angles, I remember, dont know what happened to him now.
Xhaka under Arteta has been excellent.
Country: Iceland
Ffs
Whats up Jeffrey?
Country: England
I just find it funny Hydrogen, that when you and I aren't talking about hunting Puffins and eating at the Bergsson Mathus, Reykjavik, you have some incredibly strong and insightful posts regarding Arsenal.
You are an seriously strong poster and I love to read your posts.
Country: Iceland
Thanks mate! This means the world to me! I'm a huge fan of you also and what you bring to the forum, it wouldn't be the same without you!
I sometimes think of some of our discussions before I go to sleep. I once chuckled a bit when thinking about you and my wife woke up and asked what was going on and I sang to here "you're not the only one".
lomekian
Essays are my thing
He's broken, that's why. As a 16 year old he was almost as good as Cesc at the same age. As a teenager he outplayed Xavi and Iniesta. Guy had a chance to be the best homegrown player since Brady. But SO MANY INJURIES. A lot of kids don't make it because of injuries. By the time Jack left his burst had gone, his confidence had gone and he'd missed more than half of the previous 4 years. 90% of players don't come back from that.
squallman
Still Pining for Wenger
I don't have it in me to write an essay about this topic. I just don't have the passion or energy to put in the effort, much like the team itself. A lot of good points have already been made so I'll try not to regurgitate them. However, a major problem that I have noticed is that we constantly back the wrong horse.
From selling Toure and keeping Gallas to Arteta seemingly placing his faith in Luiz, Mustafi and Sokratis over Holding.
When did this club become so "safe"? Remember when Wenger got scared and started to go for experience over talented youngsters? We still got nowhere. An aging Flamini and Mertesacker kept Coquelin and Chambers out of the side. We didn't only stop developing young players, we stopped playing them unless we had absolutely no choice whatsoever.
When it comes to players regressing here. There are three main factors, age, quality and culture. Age, once a player reaches his peak, its all downhill from there. Wenger's obsession with buying older players in recent years only exacerbated this. Quality, a lot of our players just aren't that good. I want to shove a nail into my forehead whenever I hear someone say that Xhaka is integral to our play because he shouldn't be. Culture, it is hard to improve when no one demands it of you and you don't want it for yourself.
Here's some stats for you all that for me illustrate our problem:
Denilson: 96 appearances, 8 years at the club
Bendnter 109 apps 9 years at the club
Xhaka: 122 apps, 4 years and counting
Mustafi, 94 apps, 4 years and counting
At which other top club would these 4 rack up over 400 appearances between them? In comparison, Djemba-Djemba spent two years at Old Trafford, Shevley spent 3 at Liverpool.
We hang on to these duds for far too long because we take too long to realize that they are not good enough. When we finally do, we then take an eternity to sell them because no one wants them.
From selling Toure and keeping Gallas to Arteta seemingly placing his faith in Luiz, Mustafi and Sokratis over Holding.
When did this club become so "safe"? Remember when Wenger got scared and started to go for experience over talented youngsters? We still got nowhere. An aging Flamini and Mertesacker kept Coquelin and Chambers out of the side. We didn't only stop developing young players, we stopped playing them unless we had absolutely no choice whatsoever.
When it comes to players regressing here. There are three main factors, age, quality and culture. Age, once a player reaches his peak, its all downhill from there. Wenger's obsession with buying older players in recent years only exacerbated this. Quality, a lot of our players just aren't that good. I want to shove a nail into my forehead whenever I hear someone say that Xhaka is integral to our play because he shouldn't be. Culture, it is hard to improve when no one demands it of you and you don't want it for yourself.
Here's some stats for you all that for me illustrate our problem:
Denilson: 96 appearances, 8 years at the club
Bendnter 109 apps 9 years at the club
Xhaka: 122 apps, 4 years and counting
Mustafi, 94 apps, 4 years and counting
At which other top club would these 4 rack up over 400 appearances between them? In comparison, Djemba-Djemba spent two years at Old Trafford, Shevley spent 3 at Liverpool.
We hang on to these duds for far too long because we take too long to realize that they are not good enough. When we finally do, we then take an eternity to sell them because no one wants them.
lomekian
Essays are my thing
Talked about this at length on my podcast.
Its an incredibly complex issue, but there are a few key pointers.
1) Some of the players the OP points out have fundamental limitations that are very hard to develop, like a lack of pace or agility or size, or in Mustafi's case mental fortitude. With the likes of Xhaka, his mistakes stand out, but in terms of mentality and tactical awareness, he's a very well developed player. He just has certain technical and physical limitations that the best coaching in the world can't resolve.
2) Between Ashley Cole and the Wishere youth cup team, there was very little quality in the youth ranks comparatively. Its one of the reasons the whole set up was overhauled.
3) On the youth players again, most everywhere never make it. The likes of Arsenal in the 80s, Utd in the 90s or La Masia in the 2000s is incredibly rare.
4) Injuries. As with the first team at the time, a lot of our younger players had terrible luck with injuries from 2007-2015 ish. When players miss a year at a key development stage, most never really catch up again. We had that in the youths and in the first team.
5) As has been mentioned, environment and culture. Graham's and Wenger's best teams had incredible mentalities. Made it very difficult for new kids coming in to cope, but if they could cope, they progressed quickly. Since then, there had been a broader cultural shift which has affected all football. Utd had to spend stupid money on Maguire just to get someone competent with good leadership etc. We spent a decade shopping at football Lidl, and its hard to get players with elite mindsets when doing so. When we finally started spending, there was too much panic buying so there was no cohesion of character.
6) Again as has been said, the quality of coaching staff in the latter wenger years was poor. He was fiercely loyal, which has its positives, but it also meant a lot of people outstayed their obsolescence. The club is still making changes at academy level, but its got a better coaching group now. Alongside this, Wenger's coaching style only works for the intelligent and self-motivated. He has a self-development approach which gives players the environment to find solutions themselves. This is brilliant for players at a certain level, but for those who need more guidance, it can cause stagnation.
7) Too often players have been rushed to having too much responsibility too quickly, due to imbalanced, cheaply assembled or injury ravaged squads. How many times have we not been able to get minutes for some positions, but have been virtually asking on the street for people to fill others.
This also shows a lack of really joined up planning. Hopefully a DOF alongside a HOYD can help
8) The loan ****-ups have been mentioned. Thankfully the club has really stepped forward on this in the last 18 months.
9) A lot of the previous kids or more developmental signings have had major flaws which need very focused coaching to address.
Its something we need to watch closely as the current lot of kids and they ones just entering the u18s (or at least at that age, as some got there sooner) are the best we've had since that 80s crop.
The Wilshere team was a really good unit, but not many actually had EPL potential. Jack and Le Coq made it. JET could have done on talent, but lost his way due to mentality issues, and frimpong bust his knee twice and was a bit 'hard of thinking'.
I'm excited looking forward. The first team is a mess, but there's a lot of young talent at the club, and we seem to have a more cohesive approach to development through the stages. And in Arteta we seem to have a coach who is going to try to weed out the lack of professionalism culture.
And of course the shortage of cash and the weakness of squad means these young guys are going to get chances. We just need to bring in a handful of top mentality guys to create the right environment.
Its an incredibly complex issue, but there are a few key pointers.
1) Some of the players the OP points out have fundamental limitations that are very hard to develop, like a lack of pace or agility or size, or in Mustafi's case mental fortitude. With the likes of Xhaka, his mistakes stand out, but in terms of mentality and tactical awareness, he's a very well developed player. He just has certain technical and physical limitations that the best coaching in the world can't resolve.
2) Between Ashley Cole and the Wishere youth cup team, there was very little quality in the youth ranks comparatively. Its one of the reasons the whole set up was overhauled.
3) On the youth players again, most everywhere never make it. The likes of Arsenal in the 80s, Utd in the 90s or La Masia in the 2000s is incredibly rare.
4) Injuries. As with the first team at the time, a lot of our younger players had terrible luck with injuries from 2007-2015 ish. When players miss a year at a key development stage, most never really catch up again. We had that in the youths and in the first team.
5) As has been mentioned, environment and culture. Graham's and Wenger's best teams had incredible mentalities. Made it very difficult for new kids coming in to cope, but if they could cope, they progressed quickly. Since then, there had been a broader cultural shift which has affected all football. Utd had to spend stupid money on Maguire just to get someone competent with good leadership etc. We spent a decade shopping at football Lidl, and its hard to get players with elite mindsets when doing so. When we finally started spending, there was too much panic buying so there was no cohesion of character.
6) Again as has been said, the quality of coaching staff in the latter wenger years was poor. He was fiercely loyal, which has its positives, but it also meant a lot of people outstayed their obsolescence. The club is still making changes at academy level, but its got a better coaching group now. Alongside this, Wenger's coaching style only works for the intelligent and self-motivated. He has a self-development approach which gives players the environment to find solutions themselves. This is brilliant for players at a certain level, but for those who need more guidance, it can cause stagnation.
7) Too often players have been rushed to having too much responsibility too quickly, due to imbalanced, cheaply assembled or injury ravaged squads. How many times have we not been able to get minutes for some positions, but have been virtually asking on the street for people to fill others.
This also shows a lack of really joined up planning. Hopefully a DOF alongside a HOYD can help
8) The loan ****-ups have been mentioned. Thankfully the club has really stepped forward on this in the last 18 months.
9) A lot of the previous kids or more developmental signings have had major flaws which need very focused coaching to address.
Its something we need to watch closely as the current lot of kids and they ones just entering the u18s (or at least at that age, as some got there sooner) are the best we've had since that 80s crop.
The Wilshere team was a really good unit, but not many actually had EPL potential. Jack and Le Coq made it. JET could have done on talent, but lost his way due to mentality issues, and frimpong bust his knee twice and was a bit 'hard of thinking'.
I'm excited looking forward. The first team is a mess, but there's a lot of young talent at the club, and we seem to have a more cohesive approach to development through the stages. And in Arteta we seem to have a coach who is going to try to weed out the lack of professionalism culture.
And of course the shortage of cash and the weakness of squad means these young guys are going to get chances. We just need to bring in a handful of top mentality guys to create the right environment.
lomekian
Essays are my thing
Denilson was a good talent who started very strong but never kicked on due to a mix of lack of physical development and crippling homesickness. He'd look better in this midfield. He spent half of that time as a teenager or on loan.
Bendtner joined at 16. His record until the age of 21/22 was incredible for his age, and he was genuinely pretty good for us. It was only really the last period when he went mental which were a failure. Worth noting that even when we wanted shot of him, it was Juventus who took him on loan. Shame he pissed away his career.
Xhaka - flawed, not good enough for a title winning team, but hasn't exactly had anyone threatening to take his place. A better player than most give him credit for.
Mustafi? - that's what happens when you pay a guy too much. Remember when he first joined and him and Kos had an incredible defensive record for almost half a season.
As for your comparisons, they aren't fair. Djemba-Djemba was absolute rubbish, and never played at the level the Arsenal players have all reached. Shelvey? Taken him another 4 years to get good enough for Newcastle. Another who has never reached top 4 level for more than few games.
Lidl_Reed
Wants a new name
The Denilson we had playing for us would probably walk into this team anyway lol. Not like anyone in the team knows what a forward pass or a tackle is.
tcahill
Well-Known Member
This is spot on. There's nothing wrong with taking a gamble on a player who has a good quality or two. Signings like Elneny and Holding are fine, as long as you're able to move them on quickly if they aren't working out. Even more expensive signings like Xhaka and Mustafi probably could have been sold a season or two after signing for around the 20 mill mark each.
Yet all four of them are still here, on contracts way above their ability level.
yes agreed, obviously if you miss more than you hit on big transfers the recruitment team will rightly come under scrutiny and should face consequences, but it’s inevitable that you will have a few flops, just need to accept it and move on from those players..
The summer 16 window gets a lot of **** because of Xhaka and Mustafi, but you can easily see the thinking behind it.. Both were highly rated at the time, good age and played in positions we needed to strengthen, it just didn’t work out as we hoped. The bad signing that window was Lucas Perez for what 20m when it was obvious from the start he wasn’t good enough and meant as squad depth, just a waste of money.. Same with the likes of Pepe, Torreira, Tierney, Leno, even if they turned out to be flops in the future the intention behind the signings were right.
The real mistake is/will be still relying on them years later. You can’t even blame the players if they still are a key part of the team after it becomes obvious they aren’t at the required level. they could have easily sold Xhaka for example for more than they bought him for in the previous windows, probably will still be able to get a good fee.. Even if you don’t sell you should still replace them with better players in the first xi.
Erlis
Only Came To See Granit Xhaka
Country: Kosova
People mention how Xhaka and Mustafi make silly errors from the time they arrived in PL. Never heard before of that. Does this has to do something with the English environment and culture that most of players seem to regress?
I mean when it comes to hardworking culture, I think there aren't more hardworking and disciplined people in Europe than Germans, and they both come from such environments.
I don t like that English talkative culture now in all honesty.
I mean when it comes to hardworking culture, I think there aren't more hardworking and disciplined people in Europe than Germans, and they both come from such environments.
I don t like that English talkative culture now in all honesty.
good input, especially @hydrofluoric acid. waiting for some of the more senior guys like @MutableEarth to pitch in.
We take good care of our youngsters.
EPL is just too unforgiving I think. All the limitations are exploited, and when our team is so low on confidence, the problems are magnified.
Just think that we need an injection of some confidence,and then things will start falling into place.
We take good care of our youngsters.
EPL is just too unforgiving I think. All the limitations are exploited, and when our team is so low on confidence, the problems are magnified.
Just think that we need an injection of some confidence,and then things will start falling into place.
Mitch
Blonde Brigade Grand Wizard
To think if we never moved on Iwobi and Ramsey then the younger and far superior players in Saka (must be a shoe in for PL young player of the year) and Willock (currently has more goals than Ramsey in all competitions) might not of been given the chance.
Similar to Chelsea and having the transfer bam meaning the likes of Mount, Gilmour, RLC and James getting the chance to prove themselves.
Similar to Chelsea and having the transfer bam meaning the likes of Mount, Gilmour, RLC and James getting the chance to prove themselves.
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