Philippe Coutinho

[Burt Gold]

It's pretty easy to score and assist for Bayern in the Bundesliga. No surprise Bayern wasn't interested to sign him permanents and that's not only due to his fee or wage.

The most scorers are against bottom half teams.

He's always produced. He'd be a huge influence in our team. His main problem is his wages and his transfer fee to Barca was so high that his actual value is hard for Barca to accept. He is probably a 40-50m player now. Bayern aren't going to pay more than that for him.

 

[Burt Gold]

Those comparison charts are a bit naughty.

Firstly two of the categories just show how his game is based around goals scoring which is hardly a secret. The knock has been he doesn’t offer you anything other than the occasional goal.

Also worryingly it seems to be implied from that chart that the only reason his G and xG are so much higher than the other two is because he takes almost double the shots. Not sure how shots per 90 is a category that proves he’s a better player.

Then on top of that Grealish outperforms him at key passes while he has similar xA numbers playing in a team of plumbers while Coutinho is serving up Lewandowski and Gnabry. The fact that Grealish is underperforming his xA is a speaks to this.

Coutinho meanwhile has a sample size less than half of Grealish that which is dodgy right off the bat but because he’s significantly outperforming his xA which also indicates the elite quality of his teammates, it suggests that if he played the same number of minutes that Grealish had he’d probably have far fewer xA per 90.

You make some valid points. But are you suggesting the shots are not a good thing? Can Mesut Özil get a shot when he wants? No he needs to be 4 yards from goal and pass it in. Being capable of scoring from outside the box is a huge asset. It draws defenders out. Getting shots away is difficult to do.

To make a few counterpoints. Coutinho was in a new team, new set up, new league so it could be argued he wasn't on the same page right away with teammates. He also plays in a team with other stars who want the ball too. Grealish is kind of the one creative force for his team. It's one thing to be creative for a lower team it's a whole different thing to do it for a top club.

Your last point makes no sense. It is expected assists. It really has no baring on actual assists. His expected assists are higher. More minutes in theory shouldn't change this stat overly.

My take is that Coutinho offers goals from midfield and is a match winner. He's had some rough yrs but part of that was just due to overly high expectations. At Arsenal he'd be one of our most important players. I like Grealish but he is going to be much too expensive being that he is English and I'm not completely convinced he is top top grade.

 

[yorch44]

He's always produced. He'd be a huge influence in our team. His main problem is his wages and his transfer fee to Barca was so high that his actual value is hard for Barca to accept. He is probably a 40-50m player now. Bayern aren't going to pay more than that for him.

He always produced? You clearly didn't watch him playing the WC or playing for Barcelona. If he was producing like you are saying Barcelona would be playing him not trying to get rid of him because they have players in high fees, but these players are actually producing.

 

[Rex Stone]

You make some valid points. But are you suggesting the shots are not a good thing? Can Mesut Özil get a shot when he wants? No he needs to be 4 yards from goal and pass it in. Being capable of scoring from outside the box is a huge asset. It draws defenders out. Getting shots away is difficult to do.

To make a few counterpoints. Coutinho was in a new team, new set up, new league so it could be argued he wasn't on the same page right away with teammates. He also plays in a team with other stars who want the ball too. Grealish is kind of the one creative force for his team. It's one thing to be creative for a lower team it's a whole different thing to do it for a top club.

Your last point makes no sense. It is expected assists. It really has no baring on actual assists. His expected assists are higher. More minutes in theory shouldn't change this stat overly.

My take is that Coutinho offers goals from midfield and is a match winner. He's had some rough yrs but part of that was just due to overly high expectations. At Arsenal he'd be one of our most important players. I like Grealish but he is going to be much too expensive being that he is English and I'm not completely convinced he is top top grade.

My point is that that his xG is line in with Grealish if Jack took the same amount of shots per game that he did.

More minutes will definitely change that stat as he’s more likely to regress to the mean. You can’t really compare two players when the variance between the data sets is so huge and expect to draw any meaningful conclusions.

 

[Burt Gold]

He always produced? You clearly didn't watch him playing the WC or playing for Barcelona. If he was producing like you are saying Barcelona would be playing him not trying to get rid of him because they have players in high fees, but these players are actually producing.

He had 2 goals and 2 assists at the world cup
8 goals 5 assists in 16 games at Barca
His worst year was 5 goals and 2 assists that is probably the only season where his goal influence wasn't high.
I don't think he fits Barcelona's style. That in conjunction with the 135m fee barca payed for him are what make him difficult to sell. Ousmane Dembele is the same. He is an incredible player whos had a difficult time at Barca. Almost any team in the world would want him, but not for 100m or anything close. Same goes for Coutinho. At the right price almost any team in the world would be interested.

 

[Burt Gold]

My point is that that his xG is line in with Grealish if Jack took the same amount of shots per game that he did.

More minutes will definitely change that stat as he’s more likely to regress to the mean. You can’t really compare two players when the variance between the data sets is so huge and expect to draw any meaningful conclusions.

And my point was you can't just shoot whenever you feel like it. You have to create space, be deceptive, be able to get your shot away quickly and accurately, etc. That's why i referenced Özil. He couldn't just one day decide to shoot more and score 15 goals in a season. It's just not in his game.

When you have consistently been a top player like Coutinho you don't just regress to mean. The reason he is a top player is he has a more accurate shot, he can shoot with either foot, he is quicker, etc than the mean.

Shots are hard to get. Coutinho is good at getting shots away. That is as much of a skill as "key passes".

 

[Rex Stone]

And my point was you can't just shoot whenever you feel like it. You have to create space, be deceptive, be able to get your shot away quickly and accurately, etc. That's why i referenced Özil. He couldn't just one day decide to shoot more and score 15 goals in a season. It's just not in his game.

When you have consistently been a top player like Coutinho you don't just regress to mean. The reason he is a top player is he has a more accurate shot, he can shoot with either foot, he is quicker, etc than the mean.

Shots are hard to get. Coutinho is good at getting shots away. That is as much of a skill as "key passes".

If you’re a striker it’s tough to increase your shots per 90 and is a good skill. If you’re Coutinho touches the ball in the opposition penalty area less than 10% of the time and who’s bread and butter has been long range shots it’s not an otherworldly skill to get shots off.

Doesn’t speak to the quality of a midfielder at all really. The Özil point is a non starter because taking two or three long shots a match wasn’t his style of play at all.

Also we can say he’d regress to the mean with more matches played because in each of his last seasons he’s never outperformed his xA to anywhere near the same extent as he has done in limited minutes this year.

 

[Burt Gold]

If you’re a striker it’s tough to increase your shots per 90 and is a good skill. If you’re Coutinho touches the ball in the opposition penalty area less than 10% of the time and who’s bread and butter has been long range shots it’s not an otherworldly skill to get shots off.

Doesn’t speak to the quality of a midfielder at all really. The Özil point is a non starter because taking two or three long shots a match wasn’t his style of play at all.

Also we can say he’d regress to the mean with more matches played because in each of his last seasons he’s never outperformed his xA to anywhere near the same extent as he has done in limited minutes this year.

"His bread and butter is being able to shoot from distance"

That is exactly right. He has a unique skill set to be able score from outside the box. Not many players have it. It has a knock on effect of making team come out to challenge him which creates more space in behind.

Grealish had a good season but Coutinho at 24 was miles better. Since then he's had a couple seasons that weren't maybe his best, but he still was involved in a decent amount of goals. I think he would do wonder to our attack. Is he the perfect player? Not at all. I would love to take him on loan though.

To Özil point. Imagine how much deadlier a player Özil would be if there was any chance he would ever shoot.


I take your point about regressing, I wasn't aware of his historical data.

 

[HairSprayGooners]

If hes willing to drop his wages to come here then its a no brainer.

Would you rather pay 20m for Buendia or loan Coutinho and spend in other positions? Id rather the latter.

Would you rather spend 80m on Grealish or loan Coutinho. Id rather Grealish but its stupid to think we can make that happen, so a Coutinho deal is just all round the best option.

 

[truth_hurts]

Coutinho is a level or 2 above Grealish. Doesn't even need justifying.

We need instant impact from our signings and Coutinho would give us that. Pepe is an example of a high ceiling player who needs developing. Good signing, that was supposed to get us higher than the 5th place we finished in last season. It didn't work.

Add a player of Coutinho' ability, there's no way we finish 8th next yearcand struggle to break teams down. We've been victim to Coutinho plenty of times. I'm amazed how little he's rated in here.

 

[daron christie]

If coutinho Suddenly went to the spuds there were would be a meltdown in here I love the elite fronting I guess it’s a way of people convincing themselves our club is still elite when it’s really not

 

[roz]

Looks like it’s Coutinho or bust.

Stepdad works with Steve Hitchen at Sp**s.
Saying that Villa have accepted 35mil for Grealish.

 

[MD3 Gunner]

Looks like it’s Coutinho or bust.

Stepdad works with Steve Hitchen at Sp**s.
Saying that Villa have accepted 35mil for Grealish.

Loooool Villa said they won't sell for less than 80m

 

[roz]

If coutinho Suddenly went to the spuds there were would be a meltdown in here I love the elite fronting I guess it’s a way of people convincing themselves our club is still elite when it’s really not

They’re getting Grealish apparently, agreement made with villa and Grealish in January should they stay up

 

[roz]

Loooool Villa said they won't sell for less than 80m

35 up front, rest in instalments.

 

[roz]

They’re getting Grealish apparently, agreement made with villa and Grealish in January should they stay up

Someone let @Rex Banter down easy.

 

[HairSprayGooners]

Sp**s taking money off the government and spending it on players, lovely stuff.

 

[Rex Stone]

Sp**s taking money off the government and spending it on players, lovely stuff.

Taxpayers bought them Grealish ffs

 

[roz]

Taxpayers bought them Grealish ffs

Hearing Daniel Levy is happier than when his children were born

 

[Malky]

Why didn’t Bayern take up the option of signing him then?

Coutinho scored a hattrick and got two assists against a relegation battling Bremen which makes his stats look better

https://understat.com/player/488

Look at those stats. Are those the stats of a 250k a week player?

@GDeep™ has mentioned this numerous times in this thread - even during his 'best' season at Liverpool his stats were padded against relegation fodder.
Really don't want Coutinho here, even on a loan deal.