PL | Arsenal v Manchester United| December 2, 2017 | 17:30 GMT | BT Sport

[Sniper Mik]

Then they need to reevaluate how they count that, because - as hopefully anyone on here will immediately agree with - the amount of times you concede goals to being too pushed up and then lose the ball is certainly higher than that stat would make you believe. My guess is they don't count it as a mistake if you lose the ball in the final third, but with the way you line up, losing the ball outside the penalty area is often just as bad as losing it in your own half.

These stats just don't work, honestly. Defending is too complex to put down into stats. One person could argue it was Kos mistake for letting Pogba blow by him, but where was Kola? Why was there only one midfielder in the box when Pogba made the pass? Those are largely the result of tactical decision and won't go down as mistakes.

I'd argue every time a team breaks against Arsenal and it's literally just the back 2/3 vs. 3 attackers, it's a mistake. But it doesn't count as a mistake in these stats.

I posted 7 goals that were conceded from possession turnover in this season alone. 9 if you count last night's goals.

 

[Mrs Bergkamp]

Agreed the star players have that effect however the fact that FOUR of our defenders got sucked in is a critical error from our defence.

We got sucked towards the ball more than once yesterday. It's determination to stop an attack at its earliest and maybe a lack of trust in a colleague to do a good job alone. It's also panic.

 

[Lookin' for a new Baby]

I'm still right mad about losing to that lot

 

[A_G]

"Defensive errors" is probably the most useless "stat" in the game ffs

What is a defensive error? Is leaving your CBs alone in an ocean of space a defensive error? Is having your FBs always sit on the line of the oppositions defense a defensive error? Is having your central midfielder play the majority of the game as a striker a defensive error? Is not adjusting quickly enough to a misplaced pass a defensive error?

A stat like this tells you nothing when it's not A: Explained B: Entirely in the eyes of the beholder. The whole point of stats is to remove the subjective element from the game, and when your entire stat is based around what the person thought was or wasn't an error, it's quite frankly utterly ****ing useless.

Defending is a team effort and it doesn't start and stop with a personal 1vs1 duel. This isn't 90's Basketball ffs. You always defend, even when you're attacking. Giving the ball away on the oppositions pitch when you're way too pushed up is a massive defensive error.

Stats can't be subjective. You cannot quantify an error as it isn't black or white.

You're getting too hung up on the label of the stat, instead of what it actually shows: how many goals you concede after having a pass intercepted by the other team. Nothing more, nothing less. That's one type of mistake leading to goals, that's not to say there aren't other kinds. The reason this particular stat is relevant is due to the nature of United's goals yesterday.

 

[Dokaka]

You're getting too hung up on the label of the stat, instead of what it actually shows: how many goals you concede after having a pass intercepted by the other team. Nothing more, nothing less. That's one type of mistake leading to goals, that's not to say there aren't other kinds. The reason this particular stat is relevant is due to the nature of United's goals yesterday.

But that's not true though, surely? Can you seriously say that you only conceded 3 goals in 16/17 to counter attacks after misplacing a pass in the final third? I literally saw it happen more times myself, and I don't watch every game.

Even if it only counts misplaced passes, it's disregarding the amount of times Sanchez/Ramsey/Whoever loses possession dribbling while the team is too pushed up. It's the same result, yet doesn't count as a defensive mistake?

My point is that stat, if you really want to call it that, doesn't show us anything. If you take it at face value, it literally says that Man Utd makes the same amount of defensive errors as Arsenal. Everyone would laugh you out of the building if you said that, for good reasons.

 

[bingobob]

Agreed the star players have that effect however the fact that FOUR of our defenders got sucked in is a critical error from our defence.

Ball watching. That's all it was.

I was talking to a fellow Gooner today in the flesh and we were both devastated. Two nil down against a Mourinho team is a near impossible mission. How we made one but not two mistakes in quick succession. Gutted.

 

[Taylor Gang Gunners]

Might've known @Dokaka would turn up after yesterday's result .

Funny how he's super active in the ARSENAL vs MAN UTD thread despite the fact his team is holding their own away to City.

 

[Dokaka]

Might've known @Dokaka would turn up after yesterday's result .

Funny how he's super active in the ARSENAL vs MAN UTD thread despite the fact his team is holding their own away to City.

I watched the game and it was a fantastic game of football, probably the game of the season. I always watch Arsenal vs. the big teams, if nothing else you produce some of the most entertaining games in football.

Why in the flying **** would I watch West Ham at the moment? We literally have a manager who doesn't know the pitch is more than 60 yards long. There's zero entertainment. I'm not so blinded by arbitrary loyalty in a sports team to submit myself to that mess. My interest in West Ham is hanging on by a thread at this point, along with my interest in football.

I like discussing Arsenal on here because it's interesting and I like the people on here. If that offends you, then I'm sorry.

 

[A_G]

But that's not true though, surely? Can you seriously say that you only conceded 3 goals in 16/17 to counter attacks after misplacing a pass in the final third? I literally saw it happen more times myself, and I don't watch every game.

It's in your third of the pitch, not the attacking third.

Even if it only counts misplaced passes, it's disregarding the amount of times Sanchez/Ramsey/Whoever loses possession dribbling while the team is too pushed up. It's the same result, yet doesn't count as a defensive mistake?

Again, squawka are not saying that losing posession while dribbling is not a mistake. However, there is a grey area as we saw with Xhaka v Everton. He lost the ball for their goal but he was actually fouled, that's not the same as passing it directly to the oposition; especially not when you've been played into trouble as Xhaka was on that occassion or Kolasinac v City.

My point is that stat, if you really want to call it that, doesn't show us anything. If you take it at face value, it literally says that Man Utd makes the same amount of defensive errors as Arsenal. Everyone would laugh you out of the building if you said that, for good reasons

But you said stats are meaningless with context and I agree, which is why I clarified what they meant by defensive error. Maybe unforced error would be a better term to use? That doesn't necessarily mean we make less mistakes than Man Utd, as you said it doesn't measure poor defensive shape, botched offside traps etc. It just means that we make less of this type of mistake.

 

[Jury]

Valencia and Lingard x2... what a **** pair of players to concede to.

We do it better than anyone. Had we known they'd score 3, Im sure a few of us could have come up with those two.

 

[Taylor Gang Gunners]

I watched the game and it was a fantastic game of football, probably the game of the season. I always watch Arsenal vs. the big teams, if nothing else you produce some of the most entertaining games in football.

Why in the flying **** would I watch West Ham at the moment? We literally have a manager who doesn't know the pitch is more than 60 yards long. There's zero entertainment. I'm not so blinded by arbitrary loyalty in a sports team to submit myself to that mess. My interest in West Ham is hanging on by a thread at this point, along with my interest in football.

I like discussing Arsenal on here because it's interesting and I like the people on here. If that offends you, then I'm sorry.

You talk a good game, no question about that.

But your actions to me speak otherwise. You only tend to turn up on here when something significantly bad happens to us, or at least that's how it seems to me. When we got spanked by Bayern, you were active around here. When we beat Chelski in the FA Cup final, not so much.

The fact you say your interest in footy is waning is telling though. But even still, naturally your attention turns more toward your own team, surely?

 

[Dokaka]

It's in your third of the pitch, not the attacking third.

Again, squawka are not saying that losing posession while dribbling is not a mistake. However, there is a grey area as we saw with Xhaka v Everton. He lost the ball for their goal but he was actually fouled, that's not the same as passing it directly to the oposition; especially not when you've been played into trouble as Xhaka was on that occassion or Kolasinac v City.

But you said stats are meaningless with context and I agree, which is why I clarified what they meant by defensive error. Maybe unforced error would be a better term to use? That doesn't necessarily mean we make less mistakes than Man Utd, as you said it doesn't measure poor defensive shape, botched offside traps etc. It just means that we make less of this type of mistake.

That's fair. I just read "Defensive Errors". If you specify it as giving away possession in your own half leading to a goal, it makes a lot more sense and is specific enough to be viewed objectively.

The only problem I had with the stat was the vagueness of the initial post. I might've lost the implied context from earlier in the thread, not sure.

You talk a good game, no question about that.

But your actions to me speak otherwise. You only tend to turn up on here when something significantly bad happens to us, or at least that's how it seems to me. When we got spanked by Bayern, you were active around here. When we beat Chelski in the FA Cup final, not so much.

The fact you say your interest in footy is waning is telling though. But even still, naturally your attention turns more toward your own team, surely?

Honestly, I only really comment on the games I watch in full which are usually you vs. the bigger teams, and you usually don't win those. I don't watch FA Cup games until the very late stages etc. In my defense, I even popped on and complimented Giroud when he scored that superb goal in the Europa League, but that was only because it was highly upvoted on Reddit.

FWIW, I didn't really see yesterday's game as something "bad" happening to you. I thought you played really well but were ultimately betrayed by a few key mistakes. If it seems like I'm harping on the negatives, it's only because it's more interesting to discuss what could've been done differently in those situations.

It's not like I'm coming on here going "lol arseanal loose again sheikh oil 4lyfe", I'm usually quite active in other areas of the forums. When I do post in match threads etc, I usually try to put some effort into it and engage in discussions etc.

If you look through my recent posts, you'll see me defending Arsenal players as well. I'm not coming on here to drive any agendas or anything, I genuinely just enjoy discussing Arsenal as it's one of two clubs I'm at least somewhat invested in.

 

[SA Gunner]

It's a bigger issue than you'd think.

If you can't play out the back with any semblance of stability, you've got serious problems.

Wenger has been pretty clear about it being his approach, that is the midfielders pushing up and the CBs being tasked with the role of constructing play from deep. He said explicitly that it was to cope with deep sitting opposition and yet we play the same against teams who are more willing to push higher up.

It definitely is a big issue, something we have not been able to resolve now, fifteen games in to the season.

There can be no excuses anymore, we have shipped too many goals as a result this season. He needs to act.

 

[Big Poppa]

I can't remember the last time I felt like we were genuinely unlucky after losing a big game by a two goal margin. This was certainly one. I felt at 1-2 we just needed to be patient and draw them out. Unfortunately we seem to make 3 or 4 inexplicable individual errors in every game and good teams will punish you for that.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

I can't remember the last time I felt like we were genuinely unlucky after losing a big game by a two goal margin. This was certainly one. I felt at 1-2 we just needed to be patient and draw them out. Unfortunately we seem to make 3 or 4 inexplicable individual errors in every game and good teams will punish you for that.

Yep. It reminded me of the Monaco game at Home in Feb 15. I remember we were 2-0 down, got a goal back, and went crazy trying to get another despite having the second leg still to play. They killed us on the counter with Martial, scored another and then we were 3-1 down with them having three away goals.

It wasn't in such a short time frame but going into the last 20 2-1 down would have been different to 3-1. You have the thought of the typical image of a manager on the sideline saying "calm down" after a goal is scored. It was still early and it felt like we were trying to win the game in the 60th minute. It's such a fine line and balance but I feel like as per usual we were too attacking, open to the counter and played right into Mourinho's hands. Reminded me of the games against United at the Emirates in the past, same story, different day. They always use to get us on the counter and the Ronaldo/Rooney goal in the UCL is probably the clearest example.

That's what I think Wenger got wrong despite all the individual errors.

 

[Makingtrax]

You talk a good game, no question about that.

But your actions to me speak otherwise. You only tend to turn up on here when something significantly bad happens to us, or at least that's how it seems to me. When we got spanked by Bayern, you were active around here. When we beat Chelski in the FA Cup final, not so much.

The fact you say your interest in footy is waning is telling though. But even still, naturally your attention turns more toward your own team, surely?

TBF he's not the only one. There are a number of posters who've been missing lately. That's because we've been winning. They've got nothing to say about that. No congratulations, no enjoyment.

One loss and they come on whinging with the same old sh*te.

That's not supporting by any definition of the word.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

And that **** Mourinho and his cronies winning the coin toss and getting us to swap ends. Can't remember a time in a home game off the top of my head where we start the opposite side, always seem to shoot into the North Bank in the second half!

 

[A_G]

And that **** Mourinho and his cronies winning the coin toss and getting us to swap ends. Can't remember a time in a home game off the top of my head where we start the opposite side, always seem to shoot into the North Bank in the second half!

I mentioned it at the time, reminded me of Wigan in 11/12 where they also scored twice in the first 10 minutes...

 

[Gooner Zig]

We do it better than anyone. Had we known they'd score 3, Im sure a few of us could have come up with those two.

Aren't you banning yourself yet? Thought Lukaku not scoring was triggering this

 

[Dokaka]

TBF he's not the only one. There are a number of posters who've been missing lately. That's because we've been winning. They've got nothing to say about that. No congratulations, no enjoyment.

One loss and they come on whinging with the same old sh*te.

That's not supporting by any definition of the word.

I literally posted several times over the last two days, how exactly have I gone missing? I was even on here yesterday during the match but didn't post anything in the Arsenal section as I knew emotions were flying high.

This idea that you aren't supporting your club by being critical on a forum is laughable, honestly. Everyone who is signed up here supports Arsenal in some form. It increases the size and value of the brand, which is the be-all and end-all for Arsenal. Do you seriously think @Jury criticizing Özil is somehow harmful to the club? On the same token, do you seriously believe you cheering on Wenger on here has any impact on Arsenal? If you answer yes to one of them, you're deluded imo.

I care about the people on this site and their opinions. I find them interesting, no matter how much I disagree with them. The fact that you somehow equate someone disagreeing with your opinion to them "not supporting" the club is just not on.

Criticize what you love. It's a sentence that remains true for any piece of entertainment.