PL: Bolton vs Arsenal | 20/12/03

[Arsenal316]

i'm not saying that pires, vieira and henry are generally uncommitted players, just that they are too often uncommitted in certain types of games - usually against inferior opposition. it happened loads of times last season, and this season it has happened against pompey, bolton, leicester and even in games that we managed to win, like man city. we can't ignore this problem. I think a lot of this is down to different management styles. It is unthinkable that Ferguson would let, say, Keane, Giggs and RvN treat games as casually as Vieira, Pires and Henry sometimes do (I stress "sometimes"). There are signs that Wenger is becoming tougher (e.g. dropping Pires earlier in the season) but it doesn't seem to have gone far enough, given that these guys continue to treat games like Bolton away as minor chores.

if i suggest that this complacency is a particularly french character flaw, i'll get slaughtered. but the evidence is pretty persuasive. Leaving aside the three players i have mentioned, there are other examples. Wilturd has turned not giving a F*ck into an art form. Cygan makes mistake after mistake after mistake and then shrugs like he doesn't care (he did it today after he missed another header). The Man Utd team of the past six or seven years (which has dominated english football and won the CL) has only had one french outfield player (silvestre). You get the impression that Ferguson - who puts a higher priority on determination and commitment than any other manager - recognises some kind of character flaw in french players. The hubris with which the french players approached the last world cup resulted in them exiting the tournament without even scoring a goal.

You can afford to have a few of these types of players in your team (especially if they are truly world class like vieira and henry) but they must be balanced by players like keown, parlour, etc who bring other qualities to the table. instead, we are playing cygan and gilberto. that's the problem.

i am glad you wrote this. if i had said something similiar , i would have been banned.

we have too many french players.

Be careful what you wish for. At this rate, your wish will happen.

 

[JazzG]

nah i think cygan was poor. he should have headered it and hes too slow and like jgooner said (yes im agreeing with him) he doesnt seem to giv a ****.

vieira MIGHT be regretting signing for us, he keeps mentioning man u and real and about how close he was to signing, WE DONT WANT TO HEAR THAT and that shouldnt be on his mind.

On the itv highlights they clearly showed Davis knew he wouldn't win the header so he backed into Cygan to make sure he couldn't get power on the header.

He can only talk about what he is asked to talk about. If they ask him about r.madrid or man utd he will talk about them. He is a player who locked himself away to make sure he would get fit in time, he obviously has a lot on his mind and I have no problem with him getting it off his chest. He is obviously out of shape, Wenger and his people need to look at this and make sure they sort it out.

 

[thegame24]

in that case he shouldnt be captain then right?
cause we all know vieira isnt a talker hes a follow by example player. so if hes playin bellow par then the team dont really havea captain thats a worrying point. the other point is if you do take it away who do you give it to? bergkamp is my all time fav for arsenal but he cant play every match its too much, parlour is not good enough to play every match so thats out, henry could but i dont see it and that leaves campbell as the only other choice for captain.

i thin campbell would be a good captain, in his Sp**s day he was a good shouter and in the game i went to VS LOKO he was proper shouting at the TOP players like vieira, ljungberg and silva.

the only downside is that vieira would think to himself Hey whats going on here a few bad games and i loose captaincy? the last thing we need is vieira being upset at managment.

what do you think?

 

[JazzG]

If Vieira doesn't play he won't get his match fitness back, so we have to let him play and get his fitness back. Keane was rubbish when he came back for man utd last season but he needed time to get going again, same applies for Vieira.

 

[thegame24]

no im not saying he shouldnt play, maybe just think about taking captaincy off for a while till he starts playing at his best cause as i said he is more a lead by example captain.

 

[JazzG]

Naah that would be harsh on him, think that could really hurt him mentally and Wenger will never do something like that.

When a player is going through a rough patch you gotta show them you are behind them for them to get through. Wenger is a master at doing this.

 

[jc8gooner]

That is correct JazzG. This isn't Houllier we are talking about who took captaincy from Hyypia and slated Gerrard last season.

 

[thegame24]

true true.

 

[Andrew]

We didn't play well at all. That first half was up there with the first half of Man City as our worse (Premier League) game of the season. We were lucky to be 0-0 at the time. The second half was better. The goal was fair, I don't think it was a foul by Bergkamp. And even if it was, it's not as if the ref gifted us the goal. It was good play for the goal but that was one of the few good bits of play, along with Kolo's run and pass to Bergkamp and Henry's run and shot which was inches wide of the post.

Bolton no doubt deserved at least 1 point. And we met them at the worst of times, they were full of confidence. So as stupid as it may sound, a 1-1 result was good, even though the performance was not.

 

[KoLo28]

im fu*king pi**ed off!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

give credit when due guys. Bolton played it tough and didn't give us any space. Stop taking swipes at players everytime we lose the game. Gilberto..did better than viera today and i watched the whole game TWICE(NOT highlights). We were just never into it.

What worries me most is i think teams(PL) have found a new tactic to get to us and we haven't figured how to respond to the new tactics. Before they used to have 11 guys waiting for us at the back. These days (leicester,blackburn,bolton) they put the pressure way upfront and that does rattle us somehows. Pires our most creative player and co. didn't have 4 seconds alone with the ball before a bolton shirt was there. We need to be able to maintain possession of the ball even if we are not creating chances. We completely failed today.

Another worry is our CBs(Campbel, Keown, Cygan..exception is Toure) seem to struggle in the air against shorter strikers. Davies was doing the same thing all game against Cygan and Campbel. Use his butt to create distance between him/defender when going up for the ball. This ensures even if he doesn't win the ball..the defender's impact on the ball is not very strong(thats how they got the goal). Martins(Inter) and Yakubu(portsmouth) did that to us. Our CBs win less balls in the air when guarding short guys then big guys. These people are professionals..and they should figure out a way to deal with it.

But please please please LAY OFF CYGAN, GILBERTO!!!!

 

[n_henry]

give credit when due guys. Bolton played it tough and didn't give us any space. Stop taking swipes at players everytime we lose the game. Gilberto..did better than viera today and i watched the whole game TWICE(NOT highlights). We were just never into it.

What worries me most is i think teams(PL) have found a new tactic to get to us and we haven't figured how to respond to the new tactics. Before they used to have 11 guys waiting for us at the back. These days (leicester,blackburn,bolton) they put the pressure way upfront and that does rattle us somehows. Pires our most creative player and co. didn't have 4 seconds alone with the ball before a bolton shirt was there. We need to be able to maintain possession of the ball even if we are not creating chances. We completely failed today.

Another worry is our CBs(Campbel, Keown, Cygan..exception is Toure) seem to struggle in the air against shorter strikers. Davies was doing the same thing all game against Cygan and Campbel. Use his butt to create distance between him/defender when going up for the ball. This ensures even if he doesn't win the ball..the defender's impact on the ball is not very strong(thats how they got the goal). Martins(Inter) and Yakubu(portsmouth) did that to us. Our CBs win less balls in the air when guarding short guys then big guys. These people are professionals..and they should figure out a way to deal with it.

But please please please LAY OFF CYGAN, GILBERTO!!!!

I agree...I think Gilberto was better than Vieira as well. Not a lot better (they were both pretty woeful), but I guess I expect much more from Paddy, so more disappointed in him...

But I wouldn't go as far to say as PL teams have figured out how to get us....we just haven't been in form the last 3 games or so...but you can't take too much away from other teams either. *shrugs*

 

[bobbypires]

If Vieira doesn't play he won't get his match fitness back, so we have to let him play and get his fitness back

Reserves league.

 

[n_henry]

If Vieira doesn't play he won't get his match fitness back, so we have to let him play and get his fitness back

Reserves league.

Nah, disagree there....he'll only get his fitness back to the highest level if he plays at the highest level.

I'm not concerned over Paddy yet. He'll return to form soon enough.

 

[Andrew]

give credit when due guys. Bolton played it tough and didn't give us any space. Stop taking swipes at players everytime we lose the game. Gilberto..did better than viera today and i watched the whole game TWICE(NOT highlights). We were just never into it.

Agree with that. But it's not that difficult to play better than Vieira did. Gilberto did his job well and is one of the few who played decently IMO. Bolton deserve credit. Every player put in 100% for them. If anyone can feel pissed off with the result it's them.

Another worry is our CBs(Campbel, Keown, Cygan..exception is Toure) seem to struggle in the air against shorter strikers. Davies was doing the same thing all game against Cygan and Campbel. Use his butt to create distance between him/defender when going up for the ball. This ensures even if he doesn't win the ball..the defender's impact on the ball is not very strong(thats how they got the goal). Martins(Inter) and Yakubu(portsmouth) did that to us. Our CBs win less balls in the air when guarding short guys then big guys. These people are professionals..and they should figure out a way to deal with it.

I also agree with that. We mostly deal with the tall strikers quite comfortably, but the shorter, pacier strikers are more difficult to cope with. I am very impressed with Davies work ethic though, he is a great asset to Bolton.

But please please please LAY OFF CYGAN, GILBERTO!!!!

I normally defend Cygan but I won't defend him this match. I think any crticism of him in that match was justified. But of course, the result wasn't only Cygan's fault.

 

[bobbypires]

I'm not concerned over Paddy yet. He'll return to form soon enough.

I hope.

 

[KoLo28]

i'm concerned, he played woeful and should be put in the reserves to get confidence and fitness, just because of his reputation doesn't mean he should be treated different.

 

[n_henry]

i'm concerned, he played woeful and should be put in the reserves to get confidence and fitness, just because of his reputation doesn't mean he should be treated different.

I agree about the preferred treatment part....

But remember, Paddy was great for us on his return against Loko in the CL. Yes, since then he has gotten worse, but I don't think we're at crisis point yet. I don't think he should be dropped either...think he should still be starting, but if (as was the case against Bolton) he's looking poor by the end of the first half, then we should put on Edu...

But I don't think it'll do too much for his confidence if AW doesn't start him and puts him on the reserves... :?

He's just come back from injury, can't expect the world from him yet.... and it's not as if the others have really helped him out either - we've just been generally poor the past few games...the team is in a not-so-great spell

 

[JazzG]

i'm concerned, he played woeful and should be put in the reserves to get confidence and fitness, just because of his reputation doesn't mean he should be treated different.

Dropping your captain and your best player and putting him in the reserves won't give him confidence will it?

sheesh one or two bad performances and it seems like the fans are already calling for him to be dropped. Giggs + Keane went through very bad patches last season, instead of taking the easy route and dropping them Fergie played them and it gave them confidence and they got back to playing good. Throwing them in the reserves would of shown the manager doesn't believe them and would of destroyed their confidence.

He spent the end of last season and the whole summer injured, came back and within 2 months was injured again, he needs these top level matches to get his fitness levels back.

 

[Mark]

agreed. dropping vieira is a gerard houlier sort of thing to do. paddy just needs to keep playing and he will improve.